EA

[otg]

I honestly don't believe Patsy cared that much. Hygiene IMO wasn't all that important to her. She couldn't even recall the last time JonBenet bathed. There were stained disgusting panties in JonBenet's drawers. Poop all over... Toilets not being flushed and Patsy didn't bother to flush and swirl the toilet brush around... Instead told the housekeeper to take care of it.
IMO Patsy was just nasty that way.

I'm with you on this one, Linda. I always had doubts about the "corporal cleansing" theory, but your logic in this post just puts the final nail in it for me. For someone so unconcerned about cleanliness as to let a dirty toilet go until the housekeeper comes in to flush it for you, let her children go without even knowing when they had their last bath, and to have pooped pants lying all around the house, why on earth would that same person go into a rage and kill her Mini-Me over a wet bed? This just defies logic to me.

 

[liz b.]

I wonder if the ligature on JBR's neck was originally an attempt to bind her, and to keep her absolutely still and quiet ? I am referring to the type of restraining device where a ligature is placed around a victim's neck, and then tied to the wrist,or wrists, of the victim. Any arm or hand movements the victim makes causes the neck ligature to tighten.If the victim panics,and moves more, they will die of strangulation. In this case, it may have been a somewhat clumsy attempt to stage such a restraining device ( and to paint a picture of an attempted kidnapping. ) jmo moo

Who drew that heart on JBR's palm ?

 

[otg]

Every expert opinion I have read has stated that JB would have died from that head bash alone. But whoever strangled her may or may not have known that.
As for multiple head bashes or pinches...there were NO marks on her to indicate she was pinched - and it would have left a mark (red if she were alive, white if she were dead) or a bruise. A pinch makes a distinctive kind of bruise- clear skin in between 2 areas of pressure. There was however, indication that she may have been shaken. There was evidence that her brain slammed into her skull in a manner that may have indicating shaking.
I do not see anything in the autopsy that leads me to believe that she was bashed more than once. Experts have stated that the first blow would have knocked her out and knocked her DOWN immediately and any subsequent blow would have hit a different area of the skull. Coroners cal always tell things like this. She suffered a single, horrific and fatal blow to her skull.

I agree with everything but the bbm, DD. I know a lot of people think she may have been shaken, but I don't see anything in the AR that would indicate it. As far as I can see, all of the brain injuries are consistent with nothing but the single blow to her head. The only thing I can imagine that could be indicative of this would be the contusion on the tip of the temporal lobes. But this too is in the general area of the rest of the bruised area underlying the linear crack.

Of course I could be wrong, but I just don't see any evidence of shaking. (TIA)

 

[BOESP]

I agree. I just wondered if everyone else would agree. Keep in mind of course that the first pictures taken of her body were around 12 hours after she died. If she has livor on the right side of her face, the blood has to come from somewhere. So most likely the left side of her face is somewhat lighter as a result of the livor forming on the opposite side. But generally speaking, I wouldn't call her face as being unusually pale, extremely red, and especially not blue.

Neither did she bite her lips or tongue nor is her tongue swollen. These attributes are almost always seen in a ligature strangulation without secondary causes such the blunt force trauma JonBenet suffered. I think she was so near death at the time the ligature was tightened that whoever did it probably thought JonBenet was already dead.

Iirc, on the right side of JonBenet's face, on the lower area just beside her mouth, it looks like dried mucous with slight tinges of brown or perhaps it is vomitus. That makes me think that dried material came with the head trauma.

For what it's worth, I thought she looked translucently pale. I didn't notice any livor mortis on the face but maybe I've forgotten.

 

[gramcracker]

I'm with you on this one, Linda. I always had doubts about the "corporal cleansing" theory, but your logic in this post just puts the final nail in it for me. For someone so unconcerned about cleanliness as to let a dirty toilet go until the housekeeper comes in to flush it for you, let her children go without even knowing when they had their last bath, and to have pooped pants lying all around the house, why on earth would that same person go into a rage and kill her Mini-Me over a wet bed? This just defies logic to me.

parents have moods, and good days and bad days. hormone fluctuations can play a part in how a person feels, although I have no idea if PR was still menstruating or receiving HRT. many things (headache, anxiety, tension, schedules, deadlines, feeling rushed, a disagreement with a spouse/SO, bratty kids) can cause anger and resentment regarding an event/behavior today that was easy to overlook last week. especially when a situation triggers an awareness that things are not perfect, however infrequently/randomly that awareness surfaces before being stifled yet again

 

[BOESP]

I'm with you on this one, Linda. I always had doubts about the "corporal cleansing" theory, but your logic in this post just puts the final nail in it for me. For someone so unconcerned about cleanliness as to let a dirty toilet go until the housekeeper comes in to flush it for you, let her children go without even knowing when they had their last bath, and to have pooped pants lying all around the house, why on earth would that same person go into a rage and kill her Mini-Me over a wet bed? This just defies logic to me.

How would you account for Linda Hoffman-Pugh's statements about Patsy taking JonBenet to the bathroom then hearing JonBenet screaming and Patsy yelling? I took Ms. Pugh's statements to imply that Patsy was cleaning JonBenet after JonBenet soiled herself.

 

[Linda7NJ]

How would you account for Linda Hoffman-Pugh's statements about Patsy taking JonBenet to the bathroom then hearing JonBenet screaming and Patsy yelling? I took Ms. Pugh's statements to imply that Patsy was cleaning JonBenet after JonBenet soiled herself.

Who knows, Patsy could have been tweezing her eyebrows, bleaching her hair, combing knots out...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[txsvicki]

A person who wouldn't flush a toilet or wipe the kids and teach them how when very little might have a big problem with poop and blame or punish kids for the behavior if a mess was made. The poop in the pants could have set it off with JonBenet getting blamed. If children learned that the mom wouldn't abusively clean them if she thought there was poop, they might soil themselves or not wipe. This may sound silly, but I'm not sold on the SBD.

 

[Linda7NJ]

A person who wouldn't flush a toilet or wipe the kids and teach them how when very little might have a big problem with poop and blame or punish kids for the behavior if a mess was made. The poop in the pants could have set it off with JonBenet getting blamed.

If she cared, it would have been cleaned up. IMO

I don't think it bothered her. There were no books on the subject, no bed alarms...

JonBenet would call out for ANYONE to come wipe her.

Patsy claimed flushing was a "pet peeve" of hers..... I say that statement was a blatant lie. IMO

I agree that toileting issues are a huge factor in child abuse cases, and even in cases of child death. I think that's why Steve believed Patsy was responsible. You and Steve may very well be right. I think it could be all Patsy.

I'm not 100% committed to any specific Ramsey.


I've long thought that Purple V at her neck was from grabbing and twisting tightly a shirt. I've actually seen an identical mark on a child caused by that. That mark IMO lead me to believe it was made by Patsy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[txsvicki]

I was thinking perhaps abusive cleaning for wetting but a repulsion to her own kids' poop messes when really small. Patsy left the feces on JonBenet's bed when Linda went in for work, but then always had the wet sheets stripped off the bed and JonBenet screaming in the bathroom.

 

[greenpalm]

Hello. When it comes to the faux garrote, there has always been much talk of erotic asphyxiation. Personally, I don't believe that EA had anything to do with this crime. Some reasons:

1 Erotic asphyxiation is often called autoerotic asphyxiation for a reason. It is done for one's own pleasure. How often do we find someone who derives pleasure from witnessing or assisting someone else perform EA?

2 The whole point of EA is to augment orgasm by oxygen derivation. So the point of attempting this with a six year old is what?

3 Two of the three usual suspects, (my favorite two), are not post pubescent males, who account for the majority of EA instances.

4 The device left around JBR's neck is very poorly designed if it was to be intended as an EA device imo.

5 I believe that important items were likely removed from the scene. I surely believe that if the so called garrote was an actual EA device, that it would have been removed as well.

6 EA often comes from JDI's. Where are the people coming out over the years saying - "yeah, when I dated him he was into that". Not a single one to my knowledge.

Imo, there is really nothing at all that supports EA.

ITA everything you've said 100% yes. EA just doesn't make any sense.

I think the 'garrote was made for the purpose it was used for-to kill JB. I have a theory, (a so-so one), that the killer couldn't bear to use his/her bare hands to 'finish' JB off, so he made the 'garrote' for a hands-off approach, as a way to distance himself from the actual murdering. I've never thought much of the EA theory, but who knows...nothing would surprise me. I know about that time, the 'choking game', made the news a lot, but that doesn't seem likely either, but again, who knows. The reports of prior abuse make just about anything possible. moo

I have definitely entertained the thought of the killer not wanting to use bare hands on her. This is assuming that the head blow was first and separated from the strangulation. (Which most analysis of the autopsy supports). I've always concluded that she was being finished off, because either the killer thought she was already dead or nearly so, or wanted to end any suffering (maybe she was seizing?), or because they had concerns about long term care for a child with permanent brain damage from a debilitating head injury and death was preferred. In any case I've always thought the person who strangled her with the garrote could not be sure the head blow would kill her, or would kill her quickly enough, and so the strangulation was intended to finish the job.

I've considered EA playing a role, and to me it makes sense only in BDI theory.

I believe Burke was probably sexually abused, but I won't speculate by whom, I have no idea. Anyway, as you stated, EA is for the gratification of the one being asphyxiated. So I've considered what if Burke's abuser had taught Burke to choke him. The reason being, if the abuser, during the abuse, had one hand on himself and the other hand on Burke, how's he going to choke himself (assuming that's his thing)? So just teach Burke to do it, right?

Simply use the length of cord, without the brush handle so there is no freaky sex toy to be found by anyone who may stumble across it while doing any number of activities in their little play room, only an uninteresting piece of cord. How would he teach him? I assume just tell him, "here, wrap this around my neck like this and keep pulling it tighter until I nod at you"..."yeah, people like this, it's fun"...

Christmas night when Burke is playing doctor or whatever he may have been doing with JBR after coaxing her out of bed by promising to get her favorite snack for her, which he does, he says "hey, try this, people like it." He doesn't tell her to nod and she doesn't know to. He pulls too tight, explaining the first marks on her neck, and limits the blood flow to her brain, causing her to pass out. Once he realizes she's passed out, and won't answer him when he talks to her, he shakes her. She doesn't come to. He gets a little scared. He sees the hammer, decides that will wake her up. He swings the hammer entirely too hard, causing the head trauma. She goes into a seizure from the head trauma, convulsing and puking. The 9-year-old tears out of there, running back up to his room in an attempt to pretend to be asleep. Mom, still awake and packing, hears him and decides to investigate. These kids need to be sleeping, not up playing with their toys, we have an early flight tomorrow. She goes to the kids rooms. "Burke, where's your sister?" He pretends to sleep, not answering her. "Young man, I know you're awake, now tell me where JonBenet is." He rolls over, trying to appear sleepy-eyed. "I dunno, I think she went downstairs." Patsy looks at him, skeptically "You think, or you know?" He realizes he'd better tell, but doesn't want to get into trouble. "We went downstairs and we were playing in the basement and she started tying a rope around her neck and I told her to stop but she wouldn't, then she got sick and puked." "Where is she now Burke?" "Still down there". Patsy hurries down the stairs, Burke following. The scream reported by the neighbor is made by Patsy when she sees the little girl's body.

Sorry, I can get long-winded...anyway, that's pretty much my line of thinking at this point

Okay, some of that is plausible, but it's a stretch. I agree, some variation of that is the only way EA could really fit in at all. However, I'm still going to ultimately argue against it because the head blow occurred before the strangulation (or at least thats the more popular interpretation of the AR).

 

[WhereAreTheyNow]

Welcome CCKP. Imo, it isn't "out there" to consider the leash angle. Somewhere in one of the books on this case Patsy mentioned that JonBenet and Burke sometimes played "doggies" and, iirc, JonBenet might wear a leash while Burke pretended to lead her around. I may have read this in "Death of Innocence" by John and Patsy Ramsey. If not that book then it was "JonBenet. Inside the Murder Investigation" by Steve Thomas or "Perfect Murder. Perfect Town," by Schiller. It's been so many years that I almost didn't post this because I don't want to mislead due to my poor memory.

Is this it?

TT: Right. And on of those had something about a kitty game, that was her favorite game. You remember what that’s about?

PR: Kitty?

TT: Yeah.

PR: To play kitty. Yeah, she likes to play kitty (inaudible).

TT: Uh.

PR: You don’t like kitty huh. She and Daphne like to, they love kittens. And we had some kittens up at the lake (inaudible). And she and Daphne like to pretend they were kittens. She’s just, they would walk around and they would say, oh there’s a kitty, (inaudible). Let’s go into the pet shop, I think I’ll buy this one.

TT: And that’s the game JonBenet really like or something?

PR: She and Daphne played kitty. They’d walk around on all fours, you know.


http://www.acandyrose.com/1997BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm

 

[WhereAreTheyNow]

otg,

ITA.

IMO the cord represents something more than staging, once the paintbrush handle was added for effect, the intention becomes de-facto staging.

Whomever ligature asphyxiated JonBenet was making certain that she was dead, they then added the broken paintbrush handle to suggest this was the initial cause of death?

Her head injury likely took place upstairs, either in the breakfast bar or her own bedroom. My money is on her own bedroom, I can imagine some situation where JonBenet is being restrained by her neck whilst being molested, this leads to a loss of conciousness and critically bowel control, potentially enraging her molester who has to wipe their hands somewhere?

I think JonBenet had her pineapple snack then retired to her bedroom, the parents to their respective bedtimes, then someone visited JonBenet's bedroom leading to her death..

BBM

I apologize for posting this concept in different threads, but here goes.

Staging is only applicable if the stager wanted someone else to find it. Since a RN was found, the logical assumption is that the evidence in the WC was not meant to be found (at least not in the Ramsey house).

If anything in the WC was indeed manipulated to confuse investigators, I believe the stager expected the body to eventually be found in its new location....a brain teaser all in itself.

 

[BOESP]

<snipped>

This may sound silly, but I'm not sold on the SBD.

I'm having a senior moment. What is SBD (aside from the old acronym known to all :blushing?

Is this it?

TT: Right. And on of those had something about a kitty game, that was her favorite game. You remember what that&#8217;s about?

PR: Kitty?

TT: Yeah.

PR: To play kitty. Yeah, she likes to play kitty (inaudible).

TT: Uh.

PR: You don&#8217;t like kitty huh. She and Daphne like to, they love kittens. And we had some kittens up at the lake (inaudible). And she and Daphne like to pretend they were kittens. She&#8217;s just, they would walk around and they would say, oh there&#8217;s a kitty, (inaudible). Let&#8217;s go into the pet shop, I think I&#8217;ll buy this one.

TT: And that&#8217;s the game JonBenet really like or something?

PR: She and Daphne played kitty. They&#8217;d walk around on all fours, you know.


http://www.acandyrose.com/1997BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm

Thanks WATN. That is important information but iirc the doggie game involved Burke leading JonBenet around with a leash around her neck while she pretended to be a dog. I'll keep looking for a reference but in the meantime here's an article that is new to me and although it only briefly mentions a dog leash the article is worth reading in it's entirety. Part of the article contains information from the late Dr. Judianne Densen Gerher (she is who she says she is ... or was).

http://www.9types.com/movieboard/messages/4385.html

 

[txsvicki]

Sexual Behavior Disorder. Kolar talked about advances in learning about the disorder in some children. The smearing of feces is a symptom.

 

[Venom]

<snipped> BTW, speaking of the blood on her pillow (implied from an interview question), did you realize (I didn’t) how much scattered blood there was on various items in the basement? Not only was there smeared blood on her thighs, in her genitals, and in her panties -- but her blood was also found on the white blanket, the pink nightgown lying on it, and the shirt she was wearing. Maybe everyone else knew this but me, but I just recently ran across it looking at the DNA report screen caps from TV.

Trying not to sound dumb, but where did all the blood smears come from? With her injuries, I don't see a large amount of blood being possible to have a lot of smears.

 

[txsvicki]

The blood on the gown and blanket throws me too. I suggested last year that maybe that gown was worn when JonBenet was injured/molested
possibly ten days before her death. Maybe even the blanket. If so, that could prove intent to hide the body later where it would not have been found, or just to account for the favorite gown and cover up previous blood.

 

[Anyhoo]

<quote>I have definitely entertained the thought of the killer not wanting to use bare hands on her. This is assuming that the head blow was first and separated from the strangulation. (Which most analysis of the autopsy supports). I've always concluded that she was being finished off, because either the killer thought she was already dead or nearly so, or wanted to end any suffering (maybe she was seizing?), or because they had concerns about long term care for a child with permanent brain damage from a debilitating head injury and death was preferred. In any case I've always thought the person who strangled her with the garrote could not be sure the head blow would kill her, or would kill her quickly enough, and so the strangulation was intended to finish the job. </quote>

As has been pointed out by someone else, If one merely wanted to end her suffering, all they had to do was hold their hand over her nose and mouth. Creating a garrote to do that would be the very non intuitive. No way a parent would use that to end suffering. So I think you are off-base if you are suggesting that. In all respects, using the garrote was an intentional, cold blooded act of premeditated murder, not a mercy killing and not just staging.

 

[BOESP]

Sexual Behavior Disorder. Kolar talked about advances in learning about the disorder in some children. The smearing of feces is a symptom.

Okay. I wasn't familiar with that term. I had thought Kolar used SBP (sexual behavior problems). Same general principle though. Thanks for letting me know.

 

[BOESP]

FYI - I spent a good while today trying to find a reference to JonBenet and Burke playing "doggie on a leash" (my words). It must have been JonBenet and Daphne playing "kitten" that I was thinking about. Sorry for any confusion.