Ebola outbreak - general thread #9

[lawstudent]

You don't have to be spattered to be infected. Taking off the equipment is difficult and carries risk. It is very possible to make a mistake. Making a mistake doesn't mean the caregiver is careless, just that they are human. Caregivers get tired, their buddy gets tired. It doesn't take a big contamination to infect someone when the patients are in the very sick stage and shedding tons of virus. Anything on a glove which is not removed absolutely correctly can contaminate the hand. People unconsciously touch their faces hundreds of times per day. It's really that easy.

Any health care worker who says that they cannot make a mistake or has never made a mistake is someone to be wary of.

We know that you have to make contact with body fluids to become infected. Someone who says they don't know how they were infected is not indicative that they did not come in contact with body fluids, just that they don't know when it happened. It doesn't indicate anything sinister or that it's possible to get ebola without coming into direct contact with body fluids. It also does not indicate that there are asymptomatic people infecting others.

THANK YOU! Very well-stated. Very careful, competent people mess up sometimes, and they may not even have an explanation why. Humans are imperfect and our brains sometimes don't hone in on what they should, even when we are well-trained and well-intentioned. There's no one out there who hasn't had the "what did I just do?" experience. Even the most cautious, responsible people have had a few.

 

[cuffem]

I assume she left her engagement ring at home. Had she worn any jewelry to the hospital she would have been required to send it home & since she is a nurse, she would have known this. Apparently the decontamination team took everything in her home & destroyed it. When Nina was diagnosed with ebola, the news widely publicized that there was a dog in her apartment. I do not know this but suspect that someone from the SPCA immediately went into action to save Bentley. Poor little guy probably barely missed the executioner.

I have never said that anyone was just paranoid & ignorant. I simply do not understand the excessive fear. And yes, I agree the situation was initially handled badly. I continue to hope that lessons have been learned by officials & medical personnel.

Put yourself on a plane for 8-9 hours with people coming from infected countries then tell me how you feel. Not trying to be snarky towards you just making a point.

 

[Yoda]

??? Destroyed her engagement ring??? Was it an origami ring? Because it is my understanding that bleach kills ebola. Could they not just spray it down? And as my sister so simply stated. " if the virus does not last long away from the body, why not just lock the doors and keep everyone out of her home for a week?" By the time she is out of the hospital, the virus should dead and she can go back home and have guests over immediately with no worries.

[h=2]How long does Ebola live outside the body?[/h]Ebola is killed with hospital-grade disinfectants (such as household bleach). Ebola on dry surfaces, such as doorknobs and countertops, can survive for several hours; however, virus in body fluids (such as blood) can survive up to several days at room temperature.

 

[SStarr33]

I'm wondering if one of the workers took the ring because that just doesn't make sense.

 

[Detective Klimpt]

THANK YOU! Very well-stated. Very careful, competent people mess up sometimes, and they may not even have an explanation why. Humans are imperfect and our brains sometimes don't hone in on what they should, even when we are well-trained and well-intentioned. There's no one out there who hasn't had the "what did I just do?" experience. Even the most cautious, responsible people have had a few.

True, but how is the situation going to get under control if HCW's keep getting infected and dying. Losing 500 health care workers is signifcant imo. Without many more modern treatment facilities and many more HCW's, are they fighting a losing battle?

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/worst-ebola-epidemic-numbers-26753186
"WHO reports that 549 health workers have been infected with Ebola, of whom 311 have died. Since Ebola is spread via contact with the bodily fluids of a patient, health workers are at high risk of catching the disease. The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recommends that no skin be showing in a health worker treating Ebola patients."

if the virus does not last long away from the body, why not just lock the doors and keep everyone out of her home for a week?" By the time she is out of the hospital, the virus should dead and she can go back home and have guests over immediately with no worries.

That's a very good point. They keep saying it can't be transmitted w/o fluids, so there should have been no virus on the surfaces anyway, right? If these patients lived in an apartment complex, it could have been done to ease the worries of others and to show extra precautions. Still, it says to me that everyone is not so certain that it can't be spread in the early stages.

 

[faw720]

??? Destroyed her engagement ring??? Was it an origami ring? Because it is my understanding that bleach kills ebola. Could they not just spray it down? And as my sister so simply stated. " if the virus does not last long away from the body, why not just lock the doors and keep everyone out of her home for a week?" By the time she is out of the hospital, the virus should dead and she can go back home and have guests over immediately with no worries.

I don't understand either. I assume it was in a jewelry box which was dumped in a hazardous waste barrel along with everything else in her apartment. The decontamination people also destroyed everything from Louise's & Nina's apartments. So far as I know, Bentley was the only thing to be saved from any of the apartments. It's probably just a case of panic trumping reason. And that takes us back to the subject of panic vs. reasonable caution & I'm not going to open that can of worms again.

 

[Sonya610]

I have never said that anyone was just paranoid & ignorant. I simply do not understand the excessive fear. And yes, I agree the situation was initially handled badly. I continue to hope that lessons have been learned by officials & medical personnel.

There is a HUGE difference between someone making mistakes and someone LYING. Mistakes happen, and can be corrected. If someone is intentionally LYING to deceive that is another situation entirely and rational people would NOT trust that individual again.

IMO the authorities intentionally mislead/LIED to the public and that is a huge big deal. If they lie about this they will not hesitate to lie about other things.

 

[nrdsb4]

That's a very good point. They keep saying it can't be transmitted w/o fluids, so there should have been no virus on the surfaces anyway, right? If these patients lived in an apartment complex, it could have been done to ease the worries of others and to show extra precautions. Still, it says to me that everyone is not so certain that it can't be spread in the early stages.

JMO, I think it's done to show the fearful that they aren't taking any chances. If they didn't go in an disinfect, we'd be reading a hundred posts here about how the authorities aren't taking this seriously and are cavalier about the health and well being of the masses. Either way they are criticized.

 

[nrdsb4]

This is somewhat off topic, but I worked a surgery yesterday at PHD. I am not an employee of the hospital, but occasionally do contract work there for a surgery group.

There is no doubt that this hospital has taken a major financial hit. But it is no longer a "ghost town" as it was prior. According to the docs and nurses I've spoken to, the ER closing was huge in terms of $$$. I asked if it closed due to walk offs and I was told no, that too many of the staff there was on quarantine, so they just couldn't keep it running every day. This kind of thing will happen elsewhere if asymptomatic health care workers are put into mandatory quarantine after they cease care for an ebola patient.

At the surgery center I work at, we usually put our patients who want to be close to the hospital at the "Hospitel," the hotel within Presby. We couldn't put our patient there yesterday because it was full (and apparently has been full for awhile, allegedly with PHD ebola contacts). As of yesterday, the Presby staff are all "clear" and no longer on self quarantine, but they were all still in the process of checking out and getting the rooms cleaned, etc. This was according to the staff of the surgery group I work for, not according to any formal source.

According to the surgeons, after the initial aftermath, business has picked up. Women are having their babies there (the L & D is housed in a completely different building with completely different staff, lab facilities, etc.), cardiology patients are still being admitted to the cath lab to see some of the best docs in the country, etc.

Because I'm not an employee of the hospital, I have to park in the public parking lots. I noticed the lot I parked in was not as full as I remember it being. However, I did work a very long surgery and it was closer to 5 when I left than normally. Possibly a factor, but I would have no trouble believing that business is definitely off there. People are going to have to re-gain trust in the hospital, and any time you have lost trust, it takes hard work, transparency, and time to regain it.

 

[winnnancy]

Nope.

The assertion you made was that it's legitimate, normal, and proper to cater to the irrational ears of others. My red car analogy was illustrating how we do NOT otherwise cater to the irrational fears of others, nor do we feel any need to honor or legitimize them. If people have them, that's their biz but not something that needs to alter the lives of everyone else.

If people can't catch ebola from an asymptomatic person, for a plethora of reasons that have been determined to be definitive, then they can't. They pose no danger to others. So, when others fear them, even though they present no danger, what next? Catering to irrational fear is the wrong response imo.

No, the assertion I made is that when its truly important to protect public safety, the government will mandate appropriate measures for the good of the public at large.
There are people that would not purchase car insurance if it were not required. Registration of a vehicle also ensures it is safe and road worthy. It is illegal to drive without registration and insurance and this is for public safety. Regardless of how good of a driver you are or how unlikely you think it would be for you to have an accident, you "cater" to others fears. Again, you may not feel you'll ever have an accident or a need for insurance, OTHERS do. Some things are overall irrelevant as in your car being red. ( although IIRC, red cars tend to speed more)

But what has been determined as definitive and how many statements are made regarding the unknown? Being proactive and taking precautions is not the same as being fear driven. We're not talking about packing up the family and heading to the cabin, this is simply being careful. expecting a handful of individuals who may or may not be exposed to behave honourably and stay away from large groups and public places for a few weeks is not a nasty knee jerk symptom of nationwide panic, its a very pragmatic approach to what could be a nationwide health crisis. What is making people panic IMOO is the fact that the information released is never quite complete and that some potentially infected individuals have been in contact with large groups of people. There is a loss of trust and therefore a more anxious public. Catering to fear would be denying people back home.

 

[SCHMAE]

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/nu...g-out-of-state-report/ar-AA7cvZb?ocid=UP97DHP

''Kaci Hickox and her boyfriend, Ted Wilbur, plan to leave Maine after Nov. 10'''

 

[rtjedarling]

Hickox also had a problem with having to wear protective equipment while treating Ebola patients.
She was frustrated because the protective gear she had to wear – “this sort of space suit” – made it hard to connect with patients, and the high temperatures inside meant she could only spend an hour at a time in the high-risk tent, which didn’t leave much time to provide care for the 30 or so patients in her care.


“As a nurse and health care provider, we like to be able to look our patient in the eye and hold their hand and to explain to them that we’re there for them,” Hickox said.

She advocates the desire to see HCW to come and go as they please when they return with no restrictions at all and for Americans to not have the knowledge of where these workers or with what disease they were working with or exposed to.

I totally disagree with her logic on this. JMO

MOO-While Ms. Hickox may be a blessing to the patient she is caring for, she seems to be a person who tips the scales in the overconfidence category and the play by my own rules category; which can create some dangerous circumstances indeed. I would be wary of her if I were a co-worker, or even someone who knows her. Human nature is a very most interesting study.

 

[Yoda]

"Health Dept: Individual with “some risk” of Ebola will arrive in charlotte"


What does that mean?

Wsoctv.com

 

[Yoda]

http://www.wsoctv.com/news/news/loc...wsoctv_social_facebook_2014_sfp#__federated=1

link for post above. Sorry, iOS update ��

 

[Sonya610]

If these patients lived in an apartment complex, it could have been done to ease the worries of others and to show extra precautions. Still, it says to me that everyone is not so certain that it can't be spread in the early stages.

That still doesn't explain DESTROYING all of their stuff. Just remove it from the apartment in barrels and sanitize the unit, that would put the neighbors at ease.

And that is the type of non-sensical stuff that freaks people like me out. No worries about letting potentially infected people on planes or in the country BUT if YOU get it then the rules change and you lose all of your rights including your personal property and pets.

It reminds me of the silly TSA rules -- "Hey you remove your hat, take that sweater off and do it now, you better do WHATEVER we tell you to do and humble yourself". But the lady in front of you, the one in a head to foot chador with multiple layers that could hide several guns? Well NONE of those rules apply to her. She isn't barked at and told to remove clothing, and the same "safety rules" simply don't apply to her.

 

[Detective Klimpt]

"Health Dept: Individual with “some risk” of Ebola will arrive in charlotte"
What does that mean?

<sigh> These are people that have admitted to having had contact or been near an Ebola patient. How many people lie about it?

"This person is being classified as “some risk” under the categories outlined by the Centers for Disease Control. This means the individual had close contact in households, health care facilities, or community settings with a person with Ebola while the person was infectious and may need to be quarantined."

"The department also said the risk to the community is “very low,” and health officials are informing the community out of an abundance of caution."

[quote="Sonja610]That still doesn't explain DESTROYING all of their stuff. Just remove it from the apartment in barrels and sanitize the unit, that would put the neighbors at ease.

And that is the type of non-sensical stuff that freaks people like me out. No worries about letting potentially infected people on planes or in the country BUT if YOU get it then the rules change and you lose all of your rights including your personal property and pets.[/quote] Sonja, don't shoot the messenger. Yes, I agree it's non-sensical stuff that is happening. Authorities are just making up rules as they go alone and changing them as quickly.

 

[faw720]

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/nu...g-out-of-state-report/ar-AA7cvZb?ocid=UP97DHP

''Kaci Hickox and her boyfriend, Ted Wilbur, plan to leave Maine after Nov. 10'''

So Ted Wilbur dropped out of nursing school because he was getting threats. The guy hasn't even been near anyone who has had ebola. Just another one of those nonsensical things that Sonya was talking about. We know that so far, Louise has not been able to find permanent housing. I wonder if Nina & her fiancé & Amber & her fiancé have also been painted with the stigma brush?

 

[oh_gal]

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/nu...g-out-of-state-report/ar-AA7cvZb?ocid=UP97DHP

''Kaci Hickox and her boyfriend, Ted Wilbur, plan to leave Maine after Nov. 10'''

....because the University where he attends school wouldn't do things his way.

 

[nrdsb4]

....because the University where he attends school wouldn't do things his way.

Meaning?

What did he want them to "do"?

 

[oh_gal]

Meaning?

What did he want them to "do"?

He wanted them to alert the whole student body beforehand that he was coming back to class (he had, until that time, been dialing into class lectures, but found it too difficult to follow along), and further, tell the whole student body what would, and would not be acceptable behavior towards him.

I cannot link where I read this, because it is a blog, but if you search google for it, I'm sure you'll find it.

At any rate, it seems to fall in line with what the other article that was posted, says. Just goes into more detail.