Estate of Rebecca Zahau et al v. Shacknai et al

[*Lash*]

I'm not sure why you think the Zahau's want the world to hear more from Dr. Peterson. Usually, the plaintiff's side doesn't call a witness if they don't know beforehand what he will say. He evidently didn't believe the description of the incident fit with Max's injuries two years ago. I doubt he's changed his mind. If this case moves forward it doesn't matter who calls a witness. I believe both sides have the opportunity to question.

JMO

BBM - Accepting the Sheriff's conclusion and the compelling reasons would mean one believes in the voicemail that allegedly triggered RZ's suicide. This reason the Sheriff gave was based on a nonexistent voicemail Jonah allegedly left RZ. According to the Sheriff, a voicemail allegedly left to notify RZ Maxie's death was imminent. The Zahau's definitely want to hear when the family first knew Maxie's death was imminent. Dr. Peterson is the first place I would start in obtaining an answer to this question. Especially if you consider Jonah, Dina and Nina's accounts ALL differ in regards to when they were aware Maxie would not survive. Dr. Peterson should be able to answer when the family knew. In my opinion, it is a pretty important question that may or may not support the Sheriffs conclusion that a nonexistent voicemail was the trigger to Rebecca's suicide.

 

[K_Z]

I agree, Lash-- Dr. Peterson is a good person to start with, to answer a lot of questions. It seems almost certain that he will be called as a witness, IMO.

I also believe that Max's hospital records will answer 2 very important questions:

1. What did Dina and Jonah know about Max's injuries and prognosis, and when were they told this?

2. Is there any evidence in Max's records, nursing notes, etc. to support Dina's claims that she was at the bedside continuously during the time in question of Rebecca's death?

Because these 2 questions are very limited in scope, and directly related to their allegations about the murder of Rebecca, I think that the Zahaus would be granted access to Max's records if they seek this through appropriate channels.

Actually, the information in Max's hospital records that answer those 2 questions are another "win-win" situation for both plaintiffs and defendants, IMO. Surely Dina will want to make use of Max's records for the same reason-- to answer the above 2 questions in her defense, right?

Especially question #2, because Sheriff Gore himself stated that they did not have any security camera footage from Rady placing Dina in the hospital during the time in question. Remember-- LE had to resort to triangulating her cell phone to attempt to locate where she was during the time in question. That is a pretty basic and central question in a wrongful death case-- "where were you during the hours of X and Y on such and such a date?" If all they have is cell triangulation-- that is pretty weak evidence, IMO. Particularly with Bicycle Dad and Family willing to state it was Dina they saw outside Spreckles the eve of Rebecca's death.

 

[MyBelle]

BBM

...conjecture, but no proof (I.e. Suicide note signed by RZ, and evidence of THE voicemail from JS, and not having either of those, at the very least a re-enactment of RZ's motions that evening while they had full access to the home).

There is further narrative from the suicide believers that RZ not only committed suicide, but did it in an intentionally extremely dramatic fashion as a statement to JS and/or to take attention away from Max who lay on his death bed in the hospital. IMO, that is drama totally uncharacteristic of anything I have read about RZ, but a dramatic scenario does fit with many things I have read about DS. If RZ felt guilt, why would she defiantly draw attention to herself? IMO, a suicide in this fashion would not be performed by a guilty, remorseful person.

Let me make sure I understand: You believe RZ committed suicide as the sheriff has concluded, but not that Max's fall was an accident as the police have concluded. That RZ committed suicide because of extreme guilt that she harmed Max, had no remorse and defiantly bared all to the world.

This leaves the reasoning that I have read from suicide believers: that she was afraid of CPS, that life as she knew it was over. It also, IMO implies that she deserved to die and knew it. Surely she would have known ahead of time that harming Max would mean life as she knew it would be over, especially if Max was a big part of her connection with JS. If he was, IMO she would not "blow it" by harming him!

I am not a legal expert so I may be wrong, but it appears to me that any opportunity to get Max's case re-opened is gone. This is so unfortunate for everyone who wants to know the truth of both deaths.

These are my personal thoughts, opinions and questions only.

The conclusion of suicide was drawn by the investigators and the ME. I don't dispute his conclusion as I am not an expert.

There have been quite a few cases where a criminal suspect commits suicide rather than face prosecution. I think RZ knew whether she was prosecuted or not, her life with Jonah was over. His son died while in her care and accident or not, it is understandable if he felt she was responsible and wanted to end their relationship.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

I agree, Lash-- Dr. Peterson is a good person to start with, to answer a lot of questions. It seems almost certain that he will be called as a witness, IMO.

I also believe that Max's hospital records will answer 2 very important questions:

1. What did Dina and Jonah know about Max's injuries and prognosis, and when were they told this?

2. Is there any evidence in Max's records, nursing notes, etc. to support Dina's claims that she was at the bedside continuously during the time in question of Rebecca's death?

Because these 2 questions are very limited in scope, and directly related to their allegations about the murder of Rebecca, I think that the Zahaus would be granted access to Max's records if they seek this through appropriate channels.

Actually, the information in Max's hospital records that answer those 2 questions are another "win-win" situation for both plaintiffs and defendants, IMO. Surely Dina will want to make use of Max's records for the same reason-- to answer the above 2 questions in her defense, right?

Especially question #2, because Sheriff Gore himself stated that they did not have any security camera footage from Rady placing Dina in the hospital during the time in question. Remember-- LE had to resort to triangulating her cell phone to attempt to locate where she was during the time in question. That is a pretty basic and central question in a wrongful death case-- "where were you during the hours of X and Y on such and such a date?" If all they have is cell triangulation-- that is pretty weak evidence, IMO. Particularly with Bicycle Dad and Family willing to state it was Dina they saw outside Spreckles the eve of Rebecca's death.

This is a civil case, not a criminal trial. Cell phone triangulation is routinely accepted as evidence. If the plaintiff can prove the cell phone triangulation is wrong, they'll need more than a supposed witness that the police have already publicly said wasn't credible.

Max's medical records must be kept private under federal law. That's a fact that needs to be accepted.

http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/privacy/hipaa/faq/decedents/1500.html
Do the HIPAA Privacy Rule protections apply to the health information of deceased individuals?
Answer:

Yes, for a period of 50 years following the date of death of the individual. During this period, the Privacy Rule protects the identifiable health information of the deceased individual to the same extent the Rule protects the health information of a living individual.

I don't believe there is any possibility whatsoever that Max's medical records will be allowed in a civil trial filed by RZ's family.

JMO

 

[kittychi]

The conclusion of suicide was drawn by the investigators and the ME. I don't dispute his conclusion as I am not an expert.

There have been quite a few cases where a criminal suspect commits suicide rather than face prosecution. I think RZ knew whether she was prosecuted or not, her life with Jonah was over. His son died while in her care and accident or not, it is understandable if he felt she was responsible and wanted to end their relationship.

JMO

I am sure there are many cases where a suspect commits suicide, it probably happens every day.

I agree with you that Jonah would have held RZ responsible even if it was an accident. Yet so far Jonah has said nothing so this is just conjecture IMO.

Everything surrounding the timing has never been sorted out...RZ thought Maxie was improving, someone else (one of the kids) thought he would be back playing soccer, we do not know the timing of when JS and DS received the info that Max would not make it, and the lack of any evidence of any message left by JS to RZ the night of her death. AFAIK, none of that info is solid and documented.

It is very understandable to me that the Zahau's would need those questions answered. IMO, Mary, Snowem and the other Zahau's would accept the suicide ruling if they had answers to those questions, among others. IMO These answers just shouldn't be that difficult to obtain.

Just looking for all of the truth.

 

[MyBelle]

I am sure there are many cases where a suspect commits suicide, it probably happens every day.

I agree with you that Jonah would have held RZ responsible even if it was an accident. Yet so far Jonah has said nothing so this is just conjecture IMO.

Everything surrounding the timing has never been sorted out...RZ thought Maxie was improving, someone else (one of the kids) thought he would be back playing soccer, we do not know the timing of when JS and DS received the info that Max would not make it, and the lack of any evidence of any message left by JS to RZ the night of her death. AFAIK, none of that info is solid and documented.

It is very understandable to me that the Zahau's would need those questions answered. IMO, Mary, Snowem and the other Zahau's would accept the suicide ruling if they had answers to those questions, among others. IMO These answers just shouldn't be that difficult to obtain.

Just looking for all of the truth.

With all due respect, the Zahau family were given answers and they didn't like the answers. That's the way life works sometimes. It doesn't mean the different answers they want are available. While Jonah hasn't made comments publicly, he most certainly had a conversation with investigators.

RZ may have told her sister that Max was improving but that doesn't mean it was the truth. I doubt anybody ever told RZ that Max was improving.

JMO

 

[kittychi]

With all due respect, the Zahau family were given answers and they didn't like the answers. That's the way life works sometimes. It doesn't mean the different answers they want are available. While Jonah hasn't made comments publicly, he most certainly had a conversation with investigators.

RZ may have told her sister that Max was improving but that doesn't mean it was the truth. I doubt anybody ever told RZ that Max was improving.

JMO

BBM

DS also got answers that she didn't like. "That's the way life works sometimes." Since you support DS in her quest to get answers and truth about Max's death, I am sure you can understand the Zahau's pursuit of the truth to their satisfaction.

BTW, speaking of answers, IMO it is a mystery why DS did not carry her pursuit of the truth to the next level, which looked like the only option she had left, a WDS - against RZ or JS.

 

[MyBelle]

BBM

DS also got answers that she didn't like. "That's the way life works sometimes." Since you support DS in her quest to get answers and truth about Max's death, I am sure you can understand the Zahau's pursuit of the truth to their satisfaction.

BTW, speaking of answers, IMO it is a mystery why DS did not carry her pursuit of the truth to the next level, which looked like the only option she had left, a WDS - against RZ or JS.

I don't understand the Zahau's pursuit of money. A civil lawsuit is only about money.

I support any parent who believes their child was murdered. Dina hasn't sued anyone most likely because civil courts don't investigate murders.

JMO

 

[kittychi]

I don't understand the Zahau's pursuit of money. A civil lawsuit is only about money.

I support any parent who believes their child was murdered. Dina hasn't sued anyone most likely because civil courts don't investigate murders.

JMO

IMO If it was about money, it seems JS would have been named in the suit.

 

[Inparadise]

BBM

DS also got answers that she didn't like. "That's the way life works sometimes." Since you support DS in her quest to get answers and truth about Max's death, I am sure you can understand the Zahau's pursuit of the truth to their satisfaction.

BTW, speaking of answers, IMO it is a mystery why DS did not carry her pursuit of the truth to the next level, which looked like the only option she had left, a WDS - against RZ or JS.

Does anyone else think it was strange for the daughter of Dina's boyfriend to post info about how Max was brain dead and might die on Monday evening, then the very next day she was posting that he would be all better by Christmas? Wonder who gave her that information?

 

[Zinn]

With all due respect, the Zahau family were given answers and they didn't like the answers. That's the way life works sometimes. It doesn't mean the different answers they want are available. While Jonah hasn't made comments publicly, he most certainly had a conversation with investigators.

RZ may have told her sister that Max was improving but that doesn't mean it was the truth. I doubt anybody ever told RZ that Max was improving.

JMO

BBM.

As Inparadise mentioned, hours after Max's fall, someone close to the family expressed concern via social media that Max might not live, that he was in a coma and had no brain activity. Later in the week, this same person shared that Max's condition had improved and he was expected to recover.

Additionally, IIRC, NR publicly stated she was told by hospital staff that Max was expected to recover. If these two individuals were told Max was going to recover, perhaps Rebecca was told something similar.

I am not suggesting Max was ever expected to recover. I have no idea what was said and I can't vouch for the source(s) of that information. My point is that at least two people close to the family claim to have been told Max was expected to recover, so it would not be surprisingly to learn Rebecca was told something similar.

All of the above is just my opinion.

 

[Zinn]

I don't understand the Zahau's pursuit of money. A civil lawsuit is only about money.

I support any parent who believes their child was murdered. Dina hasn't sued anyone most likely because civil courts don't investigate murders.

JMO

BBM

With all due respect, Rebecca was someone's child. Yes, she was an adult woman, but she was also someone's child.

 

[MyBelle]

IMO If it was about money, it seems JS would have been named in the suit.

Money is the only result that can achieved with a civil lawsuit.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

Does anyone else think it was strange for the daughter of Dina's boyfriend to post info about how Max was brain dead and might die on Monday evening, then the very next day she was posting that he would be all better by Christmas? Wonder who gave her that information?

I've yet to see any news media report it.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

BBM.

As Inparadise mentioned, hours after Max's fall, someone close to the family expressed concern via social media that Max might not live, that he was in a coma and had no brain activity. Later in the week, this same person shared that Max's condition had improved and he was expected to recover.

Additionally, IIRC, NR publicly stated she was told by hospital staff that Max was expected to recover. If these two individuals were told Max was going to recover, perhaps Rebecca was told something similar.

I am not suggesting Max was ever expected to recover. I have no idea what was said and I can't vouch for the source(s) of that information. My point is that at least two people close to the family claim to have been told Max was expected to recover, so it would not be surprisingly to learn Rebecca was told something similar.

All of the above is just my opinion.

Just because something is posted on the Internet does not make it true. Just because someone claims to be close to Max's family does not make it so. The media carried news stories about Max after he fell and none reported that he was improving. Hospital staff may have initially thought that Max was going to recover before Dr. Peterson realized the visible injuries did not fit with the description of the incident. At what specific time he came to that realization is still unknown.

It remains a fact that Dr. Peterson had the hospital contact police while Max and RZ were still alive.

JMO

 

[kittychi]

Money is the only result that can achieved with a civil lawsuit.

JMO

There won't be any money if they lose, so what is the concern? That DS, NR and AS need to defend themselves and it will cost them money and time? That's the way things go sometimes.

IMO it should be a relief for them to clear their names.

 

[K_Z]

Money is the only result that can achieved with a civil lawsuit.

JMO

Fine with me. That is what civil suits are about, and that is no secret to anyone. It didn't bother Dina at all to viciously and vindictively use the legal system to manipulate Jonah into giving her a hefty divorce settlement, right? Did she earn a single penny of that? No. She was, at best, middle class before Jonah's money lofted her up into a different socioeconomic class, right? It's not like they were married for decades and she put him through school. It was okay and "right" for Dina to use the system to "score" millions in her divorce for her very short marriage, right? That's how the game is played. Just ask Angela Hallier. So Dina shouldn't be at all bothered or disturbed at this civil suit. She understands how the system works, right?

Sometimes you have to pursue justice where it is available, when the system has failed abysmally. I happen to believe all three named defendants are responsible as alleged in the civil suit. I hope the Zahaus are awarded every single miserable penny the court can award. They deserve it. Be fine with me if it was far more than $10 million they are awarded.

Small comfort, for what was done to their family member. IMO, the defendants belong in prison for the rest of their lives, if not on death row. They are pretty "lucky" to have escaped any criminal charges, IMO. And I am not the only one who think this.

This is "only" money, right? And they have "plenty" of money, so they won't miss any of it when it is awarded to the Zahaus to compensate them in a small way for the hate and horror and gruesome death Rebecca suffered.

I know you don't agree with me. And that's just fine with me, too.

 

[*Lash*]

The doctor was looking for the truth when he had the social worker contact police: "Based on the description of the incident, surrounding Shacknai's fall, Dr. Peterson did not feel the visible injuries were consistent with the cardiac arrest and brain swelling experienced by Shacknai."

I don't believe it is just a rumor that the police concluded Rebecca committed suicide because of Max's condition. That is my conclusion as well.

JMO

BBM - It is not a fact Dr. Peterson had the social worker contact the police. It is widely known when a child is involved in such a serious accident it is procedural for a social worker to complete appropriate paperwork. It is possible Dr. Peterson was merely answering questions from a call the social worker initiated on her own. Your opinion is also feasible, but not fact. There is nothing in the search warrant stating Dr. Peterson had the social worker contact the police.

Just because something is posted on the Internet does not make it true. Just because someone claims to be close to Max's family does not make it so. The media carried news stories about Max after he fell and none reported that he was improving. Hospital staff may have initially thought that Max was going to recover before Dr. Peterson realized the visible injuries did not fit with the description of the incident. At what specific time he came to that realization is still unknown.

It remains a fact that Dr. Peterson had the hospital contact police while Max and RZ were still alive.

JMO

BBM - This is blatantly false and not a fact. As I have provided sources in many posts, LE was not contacted until after Rebecca's death. The search warrant clearly outlines a call was made to LE on July 14th at 18:00. Adkins was responding to this call on July 14th. 36 hours after Rebecca had passed. Where is this clearness coming from when the search warrant is pretty clear when the call was made?

Search warrant 41290 -
http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/kfmb/misc/warrant_41290.pdf

 

[MissJ]

I do believe RZ committed suicide. The Sheriff gave compelling reasons why and I accept their conclusion.

As for Dr. Peterson, he is the chief of the ICU of a major pediatric medical center. I'm not going to engage in speculation that he didn't know what Max symptoms "meant." That is a baseless, somewhat reckless accusation for you to make.

According to the public documents, Dr. Peterson wasn't questioning what MS's symptoms "meant." He was questioning the explanation given that resulted in the injuries: "Based on the description of the incident, surrounding Shacknai's fall, Dr. Peterson did not feel the visible injuries were consistent with the cardiac arrest and brain swelling experienced by Shacknai."

JMO

I'm NOT saying he (MD) didn't know. So I'm not saying anything against Dr. Peterson. I'm sure he knew the situation and relayed it to the parents. That IS my point.

 

[K_Z]

Max's medical records must be kept private under federal law. That's a fact that needs to be accepted.
http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/privacy/hipaa/faq/decedents/1500.html
Do the HIPAA Privacy Rule protections apply to the health information of deceased individuals?
Answer:

Yes, for a period of 50 years following the date of death of the individual. During this period, the Privacy Rule protects the identifiable health information of the deceased individual to the same extent the Rule protects the health information of a living individual.

I don't believe there is any possibility whatsoever that Max's medical records will be allowed in a civil trial filed by RZ's family.

JMO

BBM, and snipped for focus.

Your statements are completely incorrect.

The HIPPA privacy language you quoted applies to individuals seeking medical records for purposes outside of the legal system, and does not apply to court issued subpoenas.

Yes, medical records CAN be subpoenaed for a civil case. HIPPA has added some additional steps, but attorneys know how to subpoena medical records using proper legal channels.

And yes, records of the deceased CAN be subpoenaed, as well as records of the living. I could attach several thousand links to support this, but I'll only put a few here for brevity. Anyone interested can search "medical records subpoena" to read more about the process. Records cannot be requested for an unstated reason. When the subpoena requests portions of the records that are clearly identified, the process goes very smoothly.

A medical records subpoena is an order to produce medical records so that they can be used as evidence in court or in an investigation associated with a trial. Medical records can be subpoenaed in both civil and criminal cases, and there are some strict rules about when they can be ordered and released. These rules are designed to protect the confidentiality of such records while still providing a mechanism for examining them when it is necessary. Patients should remember that their records can be subject to subpoena and they will not necessarily be notified when their records are subpoenaed and released.

A lawyer on either side of a case can file a medical records subpoena. The document must be directed at the person who controls a person's medical records, and it must be detailed in nature, naming the patient and providing the specific records sought under subpoena.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-medical-records-subpoena.htm

Understanding Medical Subpoenas

www.mlmic.com/portal/files/Dateline/DatelineSpring2011_03.pdf

Regarding HIPAA:

For many litigators, subpoenas are the most common method of obtaining medical records. Under HIPAA, the simple issuance of a subpoena is no longer sufficient to obtain medical records. However, subpoenas can still be used to obtain records as long as the provider receives written satisfactory assurances that the patient has received notice and the opportunity to object. 2 This translates into the extra step of issuing a notice letter to the patient’s attorney that gives a date certain upon which any objections must be made. Then a copy of the letter must be included when the subpoena is served upon the records custodian. Some attorneys have started responding to notice letters by issuing their own letter stating they have no objection to the subpoena. This is a commendable practice since it enables the requesting party to issue the subpoena before the objection deadline expires. In notifying the records custodians, the requesting party should include a copy of the letter stating no objection.

http://www.americanbar.org/newslett...ws_practice_area_e_newsletter_home/hipaa.html

Under HIPAA, an order or subpoena that is signed by a judge is treated just like any other court order, and the records are to be produced without any other requirements or procedures. (However, note this is the effect of a subpoena or order actually signed by a judge. Most subpoenas are signed by a clerk or by an attorney, and there still is debate over the HIPAA-avoidance power of the usual subpoenas which are not actually signed by a judge.)

www.lawyertrialforms.com/BI4613HIPAACompliantSubpoenas.pdf