Estate of Rebecca Zahau et al v. Shacknai et al

[Mr Spock]

IMO, DeDee, aka dina or one of her friends, wants us all to believe that XZ was Rebecca's daughter in a further attempt to make Rebecca out to be a horrible person.........I know for fact that XZ was not Rebecca's daughter........

IMO I am assuming it would have been obvious during Rebecca's autopsy if she (Rebecca) had carried a child full term and given birth. This was never noted so its safe to assume XZ is not her daughter.

Maybe someone can catch me up to speed with this one, but didn't both autopsies mention her IUD? Would that not indicate Rebecca's uterus was grossly examined at some point during both autopsies?

I'm no medical expert but IMO there would be obvious signs in Rebeccas pelvic area and skeletal hip spread if she had carried a child to full term and delivered. There would be no reason for Lucas to keep that out of the autopsy findings.

 

[inthedark14]

Looking over the suit again, #19 reads "On or about July 13, 2011, Defendants intentionally, willfully wantonly and maliciously threatened to cause immediate physical harm to REBECCA by threatening to stalk, attack, choke, gag, bound, and hang her at the Premises. "

Also #24 reads "On or about July 13, 2011, and immediately prior to REBECCA'S death, personal property of REBECCA was destroyed as a legal result of Defendant's assault. The amount of said property is unknown at present. Plaintiffs will amend this Complaint according to proof when said amount becomes known"

So, is it possible that RZ was being harassed via the internet prior to her death? Is it possible that someone was cyber stalking and threatening her in the hours prior to her death? Is this why her computer and her cell phone have not been returned to her family? Is there information on those devices that proves that someone was using the internet to stalk and intimidate RZ prior to her death, were these devices tampered with prior to or after SDSO had them ?

This case is in a California jurisdiction. According to California law:

California Civil Code: 1708.7. (a) A person is liable for the tort of stalking when the plaintiff proves all of the following elements of the tort...<snipped for focus>

(2) "Credible threat" means a verbal or written threat, including
that communicated by means of an electronic communication device, or
a threat implied by a pattern of conduct or a combination of verbal,
written, or electronically communicated statements and conduct, made
with the intent and apparent ability to carry out the threat so as to
cause the person who is the target of the threat to reasonably fear
for his or her safety or the safety of his or her immediate family.
(3) "Electronic communication device" includes, but is not limited
to, telephones, cellular telephones, computers, video recorders, fax
machines, or pagers. "Electronic communication" has the same meaning
as the term defined in Subsection 12 of Section 2510 of Title 18 of
the United States Code.

SOURCE: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=civ&group=01001-02000&file=1708-1725

The above is only the civil code, there are more statues under the penal code.

ALWAYS MOO

 

[Inparadise]

IMO I am assuming it would have been obvious during Rebecca's autopsy if she (Rebecca) had carried a child full term and given birth. This was never noted so its safe to assume Xena is not her daughter.

Maybe someone can catch me up to speed with this one, but didn't both autopsies mention her IUD? Would that not indicate Rebecca's uterus was grossly examined at some point during both autopsies?

I'm no medical expert but IMO there would be obvious signs in Rebeccas pelvic area and skeletal hip spread if she had carried a child to full term and delivered. There would be no reason for Lucas to keep that out of the autopsy findings.

As always Mr. Spock, you are correct.

 

[bourne]

I don't understand where you even get the idea that Max was ever starved. It is an established fact that Max lived in his parents' homes and I've seen no evidence whatsoever that he wasn't provided food or snacks by his parents at any point. I also doubt his dad placed the breakfast cereal under lock and key when he left his children at home with his girlfriend. I'm also of the opinion if Max was upset by the choices made by RZ on his behalf, he probably vocalized it to members of his family, especially his siblings.

JMO

Read carefully. It was a hypothetical.

 

[bourne]

Looking over the suit again, #19 reads "On or about July 13, 2011, Defendants intentionally, willfully wantonly and maliciously threatened to cause immediate physical harm to REBECCA by threatening to stalk, attack, choke, gag, bound, and hang her at the Premises. "

Also #24 reads "On or about July 13, 2011, and immediately prior to REBECCA'S death, personal property of REBECCA was destroyed as a legal result of Defendant's assault. The amount of said property is unknown at present. Plaintiffs will amend this Complaint according to proof when said amount becomes known"

So, is it possible that RZ was being harassed via the internet prior to her death? Is it possible that someone was cyber stalking and threatening her in the hours prior to her death? Is this why her computer and her cell phone have not been returned to her family? Is there information on those devices that proves that someone was using the internet to stalk and intimidate RZ prior to her death, were these devices tampered with prior to or after SDSO had them ?

This case is in a California jurisdiction. According to California law:

California Civil Code: 1708.7. (a) A person is liable for the tort of stalking when the plaintiff proves all of the following elements of the tort...<snipped for focus>

(2) "Credible threat" means a verbal or written threat, including
that communicated by means of an electronic communication device, or
a threat implied by a pattern of conduct or a combination of verbal,
written, or electronically communicated statements and conduct, made
with the intent and apparent ability to carry out the threat so as to
cause the person who is the target of the threat to reasonably fear
for his or her safety or the safety of his or her immediate family.
(3) "Electronic communication device" includes, but is not limited
to, telephones, cellular telephones, computers, video recorders, fax
machines, or pagers. "Electronic communication" has the same meaning
as the term defined in Subsection 12 of Section 2510 of Title 18 of
the United States Code.

SOURCE: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=civ&group=01001-02000&file=1708-1725

The above is only the civil code, there are more statues under the penal code.

ALWAYS MOO

I think Dina investigating Rebecca, finding out about her one shoplifting arrest, and then disclosing private info about Rebecca and/or exaggerating things about Rebecca with the intent to harass Rebecca would also constitute stalking.

I am certain all this would be brought forth once the WDS proceeds.

 

[K_Z]

IMO I am assuming it would have been obvious during Rebecca's autopsy if she (Rebecca) had carried a child full term and given birth. This was never noted so its safe to assume XZ is not her daughter.

Maybe someone can catch me up to speed with this one, but didn't both autopsies mention her IUD? Would that not indicate Rebecca's uterus was grossly examined at some point during both autopsies?

I'm no medical expert but IMO there would be obvious signs in Rebeccas pelvic area and skeletal hip spread if she had carried a child to full term and delivered. There would be no reason for Lucas to keep that out of the autopsy findings.

You are quite correct, Mr Spock. I have posted on this several times. Dr. Lucas, the ME, IMO is somewhat of a "minimalist" in his documentation. A standard examination of the GU system includes a mention of parity in females (well, teen to adult females). "Parity" means how many times a woman has given birth. "How many times" cannot be ascertained simply by exam, but it is definitely possible to determine if a woman experienced childbirth.

Obviously, if a woman had a cesarean section, there would be surgical evidence both on the surface, and on the uterus itself. No abdominal scars are noted on Rebecca's autopsy, nor on her uterus, so it is safe to assume she did not have a cesarean section. *If a woman has all her children via cesarean section, her cervix will still probably look nulliparous, unless she has had surgeries as discussed to follow. The surgical evidence of cesarean section serves as evidence of childbirth.

The most common method to determine parity is simply by looking at the cervix thru a speculum. This is done the same way for an autopsy as for a living woman. A sex assault exam uses a clear plastic speculum, instead of a metal one, so as to more easily visualize any damage.

A woman who had never given birth is called "nulliparous". Her cervix is referred to medically as "nulliparous". A woman who has given birth has what is called a "parous" cervix. These are typically quite easy to distinguish, UNLESS a woman has had a lot of cervical surgery (for dysplasia or cancers,, such as a LEEP procedure), or if the woman has had a lot of D & C's, but never delivered a baby. The cervix can also look parous if a woman has had a second trimester, or 3rd trimester miscarriage or elective abortion.

In this diagram, the top cervix is nulliparous; the bottom one is parous.

This is a nulliparous cervix in a living woman:

This is a parous cervix in a surgical specimen (from a hysterectomy, most likely. The right pic looks like possibly an endocervical cancer to me):

You can easily see many more pics by googling "nulliparous" or "Parous cervix" and clicking on "images.

IMO, Dr. Lucas "should" have mentioned the parity of Rebecca's cervix in his autopsy report, as part of a complete exam. He spent quite a lot of time describing the uterine polyp he found, which was sent for pathology. We know for a fact he did a vaginal sex assault exam, AND opened the uterus, so it baffles me why he would not mention parity at all. Clearly she was not pregnant, and had an IUD in place.

The only reason I suppose Rebecca's parity is relevant, is because it would answer the question of whether or not Rebecca had ever had a term baby. Could put to rest all of the hurtful speculation that XZ could be her daughter, right?

BTW, this IUD does not mean "she did not want children" at all, which has been stated by several posters. It simply means at this point in time she chose to use birth control-- at that point in time she did not want to be pregnant. It is ludicrous to state or assume Rebecca "did not want children", without any proof that she had expressed that desire. Literally millions of women use birth control measures to plan their pregnancies and non-pregnant times-- and many, many of them DO want to have children at the time that is RIGHT for them.

I think it is commendable and ethical that Rebecca chose to use a reliable form of birth control, because "clearly" she was not a "gold digger" trying to trap Jonah into an unwanted or unplanned pregnancy!

 

[K_Z]

I don't understand where you even get the idea that Max was ever starved. It is an established fact that Max lived in his parents' homes and I've seen no evidence whatsoever that he wasn't provided food or snacks by his parents at any point. I also doubt his dad placed the breakfast cereal under lock and key when he left his children at home with his girlfriend. I'm also of the opinion if Max was upset by the choices made by RZ on his behalf, he probably vocalized it to members of his family, especially his siblings.

JMO

So, the "read between my lines" insinuations with posts about breakfast continues. Yes, noticed.

I really wish a poster would have the courage to just put it out there, what is being alleged "this time". Why the games?

Because the way I read it, there is an "insinuation" (in this post and a few others) that there was some "issue" about breakfast cereal, which is "now" being insinuated as to be "why" there was a reason for some alleged altercation between Max and Rebecca.

Another story. Another day. Another attack on Rebecca.

Sit back for a while and the new story will mature into some version of "Rebecca wouldn't let Max eat something for breakfast he wanted to eat, so Rebecca "torpedoed" him over the railing to his death."

And I bet the story will include that whatever Max is alleged to have wanted to eat was provided by Dina.

There is a sugary junk food cereal in this fairytale somewhere, IMO.

Hmmm. Did Dina buy junky sugary cereal for Max to take to Jonah's house, just to upset Jonah and Rebecca, who valued healthy eating? That sounds pretty crazy to me! And that is just "wild" speculation on my part!

 

[*Lash*]

Respectfully snipped -

Looking over the suit again, #19 reads "On or about July 13, 2011, Defendants intentionally, willfully wantonly and maliciously threatened to cause immediate physical harm to REBECCA by threatening to stalk, attack, choke, gag, bound, and hang her at the Premises. "

Also #24 reads "On or about July 13, 2011, and immediately prior to REBECCA'S death, personal property of REBECCA was destroyed as a legal result of Defendant's assault. The amount of said property is unknown at present. Plaintiffs will amend this Complaint according to proof when said amount becomes known"

So, is it possible that RZ was being harassed via the internet prior to her death? Is it possible that someone was cyber stalking and threatening her in the hours prior to her death? Is this why her computer and her cell phone have not been returned to her family? Is there information on those devices that proves that someone was using the internet to stalk and intimidate RZ prior to her death, were these devices tampered with prior to or after SDSO had them ?

ALWAYS MOO

I have pondered on whether the "Housemaid" movie may have a role in #19. Maybe someone planted the video while Rebecca was out shuttling people to and from the airport? There was no one at the mansion while Rebecca was gone and we know there were people that lived very close who very much did not like Rebecca. If this indeed happened, I would think it would be considered threatening to stalk, attack, choke, gag, bound, and hang Rebecca.

#24 - What was destroyed PRIOR to her death? A voicemail, text messages or emails? The suit insinuates something of value was destroyed, so I would think something more material. Maybe her phone, cameras or computer? It seems the attorneys do not have possession of whatever was destroyed.

If Rebecca was being cyber stalked, I would think it would be via email. I wonder if the Z attorneys were able to retrieve Rebecca's email from her internet providers server?

 

[*Lash*]

Maybe I was dreaming, but I think I remember reading about some specific pieces of evidence they were seeking, such as numbered photos that appeared to be omitted from a series of photos, and several seconds from AS's 911 call. Can someone with better organizational skills refresh my memory?

All of the above is just my opinion.

Sorry, Zinn. You were not dreaming. I should have been more specific. I was referring to exactly what interviews were missing, whose cell records, etc...However after seeing it all together in the list Carioca provided it appears just about everything was missing from the file the Z's received in 2011.

 

[Carioca]

What would be the symptoms of a combined histrionic and narcissistic personality disorder?
Does any one know?

Hi Gilgamesh - Here are definition and symptoms of Histrionic Personality Disorder. Considering the definition is "someone wanting to be the center of attention" I'd say that equates to narcissism as well:

"Histrionic personality disorder is characterized by a long-standing pattern of attention seeking behavior and extreme emotionality. Someone with histrionic personality disorder wants to be the center of attention in any group of people, and feel uncomfortable when they are not."

Symptoms of Histrionic Personality Disorder
A pervasive pattern of excessive emotionality and attention seeking, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

• Is uncomfortable in situations in which he or she is not the center of attention
• Interaction with others is often characterized by inappropriate sexually seductive or provocative behavior
• Displays rapidly shifting and shallow expression of emotions
• Consistently uses physical appearance to draw attention to themself
• Has a style of speech that is excessively impressionistic and lacking in detail
• Shows self-dramatization, theatricality, and exaggerated expression of emotion
• Is highly suggestible, i.e., easily influenced by others or circumstances
• Considers relationships to be more intimate than they actually are

http://psychcentral.com/disorders/histrionic-personality-disorder-symptoms/

 

[Carioca]

IMO I am assuming it would have been obvious during Rebecca's autopsy if she (Rebecca) had carried a child full term and given birth. This was never noted so its safe to assume XZ is not her daughter.

Maybe someone can catch me up to speed with this one, but didn't both autopsies mention her IUD? Would that not indicate Rebecca's uterus was grossly examined at some point during both autopsies?

I'm no medical expert but IMO there would be obvious signs in Rebeccas pelvic area and skeletal hip spread if she had carried a child to full term and delivered. There would be no reason for Lucas to keep that out of the autopsy findings.

Here is a link to the Autopsy Report summary on Kristal Bentley Waterson. She was found hanged by a belt. The scene was staged to look like a suicide, but the autopsy revealed she was murdered (strangled before hanged). Although there are interesting similarities in both Kristal and Rebecca's ligature wounds (both had 2), I am referencing here an example of an AR where the ME states the victim had never given birth:

FEMALE GENITAL SYSTEM: The structures are within normal limits. Examination of the pelvic area indicates the victim had not given birth and was not pregnant at the time of death.
http://www.crimescene.com/suicide/evidence.autopsy.php

 

[Carioca]

Searching for the "mud on my face" smilie:
Upon further investigation, the Kristal Bentley Waterson I referenced in post #272 above is not a real case. Rather it is fictional and one of many cases on a website for wannabe detectives. My apologies, fellow web sleuths. I should have done my homework (due diligence) before posting. I will now return to my day job.
:blushing::facepalm:

 

[coastal]

Aw, Cairoca, it's okay. Your honesty fixed it, so thanks for that!

 

[coastal]

Snipped for space...

K_Z, thank you for those lovely pictures of cervices (is that the right word for more than one cervix? God Bless spellcheck).

I had no idea.

 

[inthedark14]

K_Z, thank you for those lovely pictures of cervices (is that the right word for more than one cervix? God Bless spellcheck).

I had no idea.

You make me smile because it shocked the heck out of me, it reminded me of the book, and then the visual of a movie....:scared:

Sigh...I chalk this up to another thing I now know thanks to WS.

Unfortunately, being a WS member, I've read more autopsy reports than I've ever wanted to...but this does bring it to light. If nothing else, it helps to squash some of the innuendo that is out there. In all honestly, when the ME was doing the autopsy, would he have left out that to "give peace to a family"? RESOUNDING NO. An autopsy is supposed to be the facts laid bare (excuse the pun). After all, in the end, our bodies tell our story, that is of course if the elected professional is willing to present everything. I'm pretty sure there are laws and statues about that, I will research later.

It's just another reason that this ME has chosen to include in his reports only reasons why it **could** be a suicide.

 

[MyBelle]

So, the "read between my lines" insinuations with posts about breakfast continues. Yes, noticed.

I really wish a poster would have the courage to just put it out there, what is being alleged "this time". Why the games?

Because the way I read it, there is an "insinuation" (in this post and a few others) that there was some "issue" about breakfast cereal, which is "now" being insinuated as to be "why" there was a reason for some alleged altercation between Max and Rebecca.

Another story. Another day. Another attack on Rebecca.

Sit back for a while and the new story will mature into some version of "Rebecca wouldn't let Max eat something for breakfast he wanted to eat, so Rebecca "torpedoed" him over the railing to his death."

And I bet the story will include that whatever Max is alleged to have wanted to eat was provided by Dina.

There is a sugary junk food cereal in this fairytale somewhere, IMO.

Hmmm. Did Dina buy junky sugary cereal for Max to take to Jonah's house, just to upset Jonah and Rebecca, who valued healthy eating? That sounds pretty crazy to me! And that is just "wild" speculation on my part!

Unfortunately for Max and his parents, his death isn't a "fairytale." According to statements by RZ and her sister made to police and noted in the police reports, Dina wasn't present at the time of Max's fall. At the time of his death, a child abuse investigation had been initiated by his physicians because the statements about the circumstances surrounding his fall were suspicious.

I do know that if a 6-year-old has an "altercation" with a fit adult--no matter if it was about breakfast cereal or anything else--the child usually doesn't "win" and Max certainly did not win.

JMO

 

[Inparadise]

Unfortunately for Max and his parents, his death isn't a "fairytale." According to statements by RZ and her sister made to police and noted in the police reports, Dina wasn't present at the time of Max's fall. At the time of his death, a child abuse investigation had been initiated by his physicians because the statements about the circumstances surrounding his fall were suspicious.

I do know that if a 6-year-old has an "altercation" with a fit adult--no matter if it was about breakfast cereal or anything else--the child usually doesn't "win" and Max certainly did not win.

JMO

Odd, Max had pancakes for breakfast that morning. And there was never a COS investigation into his accident.

 

[MyBelle]

Odd, Max had pancakes for breakfast that morning. And there was never a COS investigation into his accident.

I have no idea what Max had for breakfast on any morning or why it is relevant.

All I care about is that he did fall and his doctors asked for an investigation and I do believe one is ongoing.

JMO

 

[*Lash*]

A discussion thread would have been created here at WS had Dina or Jonah filed a WDS in Maxie's case.

This thread is about the wrongful death suit filed by the Zahau family.

 

[K_Z]

A discussion thread would have been created here at WS had Dina or Jonah filed a WDS in Maxie's case.

This thread is about the wrongful death suit filed by the Zahau family.

Thank you, Lash. It does seem there is an effort to disrupt any discussion about the wrongful death lawsuit.

Good reminder for us all to remain on topic. That is always where the conversation flows best, and is most productive. Thanks for steering us back out of the weeds! :seeya: