Evidence Against Patsy That Most People Have Never Read Before

[SleuthingSleuth]

John Ramsey's tapping his foot showing anxiety when waiting for something to happen...

~a call from the kidnappers when 'tomorrow' could have meant 26th or 27th, who knows...
~someone, anyone, to actually "DO SOMETHING" to find his daughter...
~his other two children to arrive safely in Boulder...
~the millions of decisions he had to make in order to insure his daughter's safe return. Had he made correct choices so far. What should he do next?
~why haven't those idiots found her yet

The tapping of the foot thing seems as male an issue of something one does when they can't physically do anything else, as does a female pumping her crossed leg while sitting or twirling her hair...

It could mean anything or nothing at all, IMO.

Sure...his disposition could have meant something, or nothing...depending what the truth of the whole situation was (which is fleeting).

The big thing is what he'd been doing while out of sight and out of ear.

 

[angelwngs]

Sure...his disposition could have meant something, or nothing...depending what the truth of the whole situation was (which is fleeting).

The big thing is what he'd been doing while out of sight and out of ear.

~~~~
I couldn't agree with you more...

 

[JBean]

So...our intrepid intruder felt absolutely certain that no Ramsey family members or friends would happen to look in the wine cellar? According to John's account of finding the body...I don't believe she was even hidden in any manner.

I myself...in the same situation (kidnapping), would have ended up going through every room in my house in the effort to find something of worth.

When it became clear no ransom call was going to come, the detective on the scene told John to search the house in a thorough manner...and John was the one who found the body.
By John's account, Fleet White should have found the body when he peered into the wine cellar earlier in the day.

Such an intruder is a big gambler...one would think he'd put the body somewhere where it at least would be hidden from view if his big plan was to delay the body being found.

No, I don't think there was any certainty at all. Nothing to lose, no gamble.As you can see his or her escape was not predicated on JBR not being found right away. if it worked, it worked.
It worked.

 

[SleuthingSleuth]

No, I don't think there was any certainty at all. Nothing to lose, no gamble.As you can see his or her escape was not predicated on JBR not being found right away. if it worked, it worked.
It worked.

Well...I still think he would have at least hidden the body. That would make a lot more sense. He'd think of a phony ransom note, but not hide her body and even assure her fave nightgown was with her body?

If he stopped and wrote the ransom note (which, truth be told, seemed to take a while) during Christmas night (either before or after the murder)...that in itself is a huge gamble.
The intruder theory pratically requires the guy was in the house earlier that day and wrote the RN then...which means he planned from the get go to...murder Jonbenet (and not do much else to her), and leave a phony RN.

The plan of "leaving a RN to delay anybody in finding the body" only worked if there was an intruder...otherwise, obviously something else was afoot.

Incidentally...have you heard of any other cases where an intruder breaks into a house in an unknown fashion, take a family's child from her room and murder her in the house while the rest of her family sleeps...and then leaves a phony RN before he escapes in an unknown manner?
As I've said elsewhere, I don't think after committing the perfect crime such an intruder would stop...he'd continue. After such a thrill...abducting children would be tame to him. That is, if we're talking about a pedophilic killer who has a "need" to do such crimes.

 

[Jolynna]

"Who was the Lawyer who said 'are' from Patsy's jacket/sweater?"

That would be Mr. Kane!

Super Dave answered this for me.

One of the things I have been thinking about is the police not being able to access the Ramsey's records from the phone company.

What possible reason would there be for the Ramseys not to WANT their phone records gone over with a fine tooth comb? Phone companies can pull up records of incoming as well as outgoing calls.

Why would an innocent person NOT push to have THIS kind information made available to investigators?

 

[JBean]

Well...I still think he would have at least hidden the body. That would make a lot more sense. He'd think of a phony ransom note, but not hide her body and even assure her fave nightgown was with her body?

If he stopped and wrote the ransom note (which, truth be told, seemed to take a while) during Christmas night (either before or after the murder)...that in itself is a huge gamble.
The intruder theory pratically requires the guy was in the house earlier that day and wrote the RN then...which means he planned from the get go to...murder Jonbenet (and not do much else to her), and leave a phony RN.

The plan of "leaving a RN to delay anybody in finding the body" only worked if there was an intruder...otherwise, obviously something else was afoot.

Incidentally...have you heard of any other cases where an intruder breaks into a house in an unknown fashion, take a family's child from her room and murder her in the house while the rest of her family sleeps...and then leaves a phony RN before he escapes in an unknown manner?
As I've said elsewhere, I don't think after committing the perfect crime such an intruder would stop...he'd continue. After such a thrill...abducting children would be tame to him. That is, if we're talking about a pedophilic killer who has a "need" to do such crimes.

He did hide the body IMO. Simply, but hidden away nonetheless.
I imagine that JBR was clutching her big undies and her favorite nightie when she first came into contact with her murderer. JMHO of course.

I don't think it took all that long to write such an RN. It was not well written nor was it very well thought out IMO. More off the top of the head. Maybe just for fun. Don't know. I certainly don't think it requires that he was in there earlier in the day. Could have, but I don't think it had to have happened that way.
No. I have never heard of a case even remotely similar to this one on any level. I also don't imagine it to be a pedophilic killer with a need to commit this kind of crime either. I don't see this as a thrill kill.

 

[SleuthingSleuth]

He did hide the body IMO. Simply, but hidden away nonetheless.
I imagine that JBR was clutching her big undies and her favorite nightie when she first came into contact with her murderer. JMHO of course.

And...if anyone had looked in the wine cellar...his plan would have been moot. What would have gained him only a few hours really if it went ok would have gained him nothing...and in fact, it would make him lose time while stopping to write it the night of the murder.
Technically, Fleet White should have found the body...if it was so easy to see without the light on, as John seemed to claim.

Why though would JBR be clutching the wrong sized panties and her favorite nightgown when she met her murderer? I don't remember the Ramseys saying she was put to bed with them (according the Ramseys, nothing happened with Jonbenet after they put her to bed).

I don't think it took all that long to write such an RN. It was not well written nor was it very well thought out IMO. More off the top of the head. Maybe just for fun. Don't know. I certainly don't think it requires that he was in there earlier in the day. Could have, but I don't think it had to have happened that way.
No. I have never heard of a case even remotely similar to this one on any level. I also don't imagine it to be a pedophilic killer with a need to commit this kind of crime either. I don't see this as a thrill kill.

Apparently the writer practiced before he wrote the note that was left. The RN was an attempt to write what the author thought a RN should sound like...and it also included rather personal statements to John.
It must have been a truly calm intruder to sit down, take writing materials from the house in the middle of the night, and write the letter. Was he worried at all about being caught?

And if this intruder was not a pedophilic killer who needed to do a crime like this, and did it for his own pleasure...what sort of murderer was this?

 

[JBean]

And...if anyone had looked in the wine cellar...his plan would have been moot. What would have gained him only a few hours really if it went ok would have gained him nothing...and in fact, it would make him lose time while stopping to write it the night of the murder.
Technically, Fleet White should have found the body...if it was so easy to see without the light on, as John seemed to claim.

Agreed and similar to what i said originally. Maybe it would pay off, maybe it wouldn't. Just so happened it did.

Why though would JBR be clutching the wrong sized panties and her favorite nightgown when she met her murderer? I don't remember the Ramseys saying she was put to bed with them (according the Ramseys, nothing happened with Jonbenet after they put her to bed).

I wasn't implying that PR and JR put her to bed with them. I was implying that she was up and got them herself prior to meeting the intruder. I think she may have already been up and awake when the intruder arrived.

Apparently the writer practiced before he wrote the note that was left. The RN was an attempt to write what the author thought a RN should sound like...and it also included rather personal statements to John.
It must have been a truly calm intruder to sit down, take writing materials from the house in the middle of the night, and write the letter. Was he worried at all about being caught?

And if this intruder was not a pedophilic killer who needed to do a crime like this, and did it for his own pleasure...what sort of murderer was this?

Even with practice I still don't think this note took all that long to write. It's long but certainly no masterpiece.JMHO.The fact that the writing materials were taken from the house, convinces me that the RN was just an afterthought. Either for "fun" or for a delay tactic as we have discussed.
Yes, I do believe he/she was calm and no I do not believe they were the slightest bit concerned about getting caught in the home.

 

[SleuthingSleuth]

I wasn't implying that PR and JR put her to bed with them. I was implying that she was up and got them herself prior to meeting the intruder. I think she may have already been up and awake when the intruder arrived.
Even with practice I still don't think this note took all that long to write. It's long but certainly no masterpiece.JMHO.The fact that the writing materials were taken from the house, convinces me that the RN was just an afterthought. Either for "fun" or for a delay tactic as we have discussed.
Yes, I do believe he/she was calm and no I do not believe they were the slightest bit concerned about getting caught in the home.

From the sounds of it...what you are describing sounds like an intruder who knew Jonbenet...and who was either let into the house, or had a key. This person would have been at the house several times already in the past, and not in a criminal way.
The antic with the RN would suggest someone young...while had he really hidden the body in conjunction with the RN, that would signal someone who knew what they were doing more.

How this person though would leave no trace of themselves at the crime scene...well, I really wouldn't know. Would have worn gloves of course...but then there's the lack of DNA or fibers, it would seem anyways.

 

[JBean]

From the sounds of it...what you are describing sounds like an intruder who knew Jonbenet...and who was either let into the house, or had a key. This person would have been at the house several times already in the past, and not in a criminal way.
The antic with the RN would suggest someone young...while had he really hidden the body in conjunction with the RN, that would signal someone who knew what they were doing more.

How this person though would leave no trace of themselves at the crime scene...well, I really wouldn't know. Would have worn gloves of course...but then there's the lack of DNA or fibers, it would seem anyways.

I do believe it was done by someone who knew exactly what they were doing. I do not think this person knew JBR at all, highly doubt they had ever been anywhere near that house and had no trouble getting in, if locked doors kept intruders out, it woud be a much safer world.

Out of curiousity, does anyone know if any of the alarm keypads were visible from any window or door? Also were there motion detectors throughout and were there contacts on every window? I know nothing was set, which is usually the case, but I am just curious.

 

[SleuthingSleuth]

I do believe it was done by someone who knew exactly what they were doing. I do not think this person knew JBR at all, highly doubt they had ever been anywhere near that house and had no trouble getting in, if locked doors kept intruders out, it woud be a much safer world.

A professional then do you mean? What would have been his purpose?
Obviously if he didn't know Jonbenet, he would have forcibly had to bring her down to the basement.

According to Burke's statements, if we take them to be accurate, during the night while he was in bed he said he could hear voices in the distance of the house...though he could not say if it was a dream or not. Apparently this voices were not screams or such.

The housekeeper and even JAR remarked that the house would have rather difficult to navigate through in near darkness if one didn't already know the layout of the rooms and objects.

Out of curiousity, does anyone know if any of the alarm keypads were visible from any window or door? Also were there motion detectors throughout and were there contacts on every window? I know nothing was set, which is usually the case, but I am just curious.

Can't say I know whether any were visible from a door or window...I do know some of the windows were clearly labelled with an alarm sticker...giving the suggestion that the house had an alarm on.

 

[rashomon]

Is there anyone that does think the RN was real?

Very important question. Maybe poster Holdontoyourhat, who a while ago tried to prove that the note was indeed written by a small foreign faction, but I believe he changed his opinion later.
Your question is one which btw IDIs have often sidestepped, for the RN sometimes served them to explain their varying scenarios: at one time they referred to several killers (pedophile ring) and the RN came in handy because it mentioned a 'group' of people, at another time when they focused on a lone pedophile, the RN was never mentioned in their posts. But they hardly ever tried to explain why a pedophile or a group of pedophiles would write a bogus ransom note at all.

It is very revealing that Patsy Ramsey knew that there never was a small foreign faction, isn't it? For she said that there are at least two people in the world who know the truth: the killer and one person this killer may have confided in. What a slip-up by Patsy! She was right on target imo. Without fully realizing it, she had spoken of herself and John there. A poster who watched this on TV said when John heard that, he loooked as if he was gonna wet himself.

This just doesn't make any sense to me at all.

To me it makes perfect sense that they wrote the note in their despair. For what should they have told the police instead? Only that the child was missing? And then the police would have found JB with a bashed-in head in their own cellar, with both parents present in the home - now what do you think would have happened? The Ramseys would have been arrested on the spot, no question about it. And that's what they wanted to avoid at all costs. Any port in a storm - any staging in a desperate situation, and if it's only a totally idiotic ransom note and a bogus garrote.

And why do you think it doesn't make sense for the Ramseys to have at least considered dumping JB's body somewhere outside, to make the whole thing more convincing?

 

[sandraladeda]

No, I do not believe the R's wrote the note.
I do believe in the intruder theory. But, just like the RDI theory, not everything works. I think that is what makes this a unique and discussion worthy case.
The thing about the RN is that it really makes no sense at all. So, IMO the only reasonable explanation is that the intruder wanted to put time between his escape and the discovery of the body. The more time that goes by without this being considered a murder, the colder the trail becomes. If you think of it in those terms, it was ingenious. A lot of time was spent trying to analyze this ridiculous note.The crime scene was not treated like a murder scene, but rather a kidnapping;including not thoruoghly searching the house.The intruder got how many hours head start? Imagine a a murdered body right in the house undiscovered.Why? Because there was a ransom note.Took a chance the house would not be searched and it paid off. The RN was the great detractor, IMO.

Hi JBean.
That RN must have taken ages to write, time that could have been used to get further away from the scene of the crime, if that's what the perp's intended by writing the note.

Also, the note could have been 3 or 4 lines. "We have your daughter. We want $118,000! Wait for our call. Don't call the police or she dies." A short RN would have served the same purpose - pointing investigators in the direction of a kidnapping instead of a murder.

Also, the perp could have gotten away without any RN, and simply hid the body. She was already dead, it's not like she could have called out to people searching the house - "I'm over here! In a suitcase!" She was a small, dead child. She could have been stuffed into any box, cubbyhole, trunk, etc., and escaped detection, at least in the first, cursory searches of the home. As it was, she was missed by FW the first itme he looked in the basement room in which she was later found. The Rs could have woken up, found JB gone, called the police, and it could be assumed she had either been taken or wandered out of the house herself. This scenario would have attracted even less police attention, as the first thought might be that she went outside, or wandered off, and of course she will turn up. Later, the search might have taken the police right outside of the home, canvassing the neighborhood, calling her name, etc.

It can be argued the crime scene was still a crime scene, whether it was a murder or a kidnapping. It should have always been preserved as a crime scene. Certainly investigators were more concerned with kidnapping matters, and any analysis of the crime scene was put on hold (also due to the unfortunate fact that it was Christmas and they had a deplorable shortage of manpower) to deal with the immediate matter of the apparent kidnapping. Still, it was a crime scene, and there should have been better effort to preserve any forensics.

imo

 

[sandraladeda]

I can understand some fiber transfers from Patsy's sweater, like on JonBenet's clothes....but on the garrote, the knots, and the paint tray and duct tape??? Puleez!

I am not just responding to this post, but many on this thread with respect to the fiber transfer. Several poster have commented that, of course Patsy's sweater fibers were on JB, she lived there, her sweater fibers would be everywhere, etc.

By the time JB was found, JR, PR, the Whites, the Fernies, and the cop had all been in the house, all day. If PR's sweater fibers were able to migrate onto the body, into the paint tray, under the duct tape on her mouth, into the knots of the garrote, wouldn't John's, Burke's, Fleet's, Priscilla's, etc. have done so too?

You would think that, if fibers can travel so easily, there would have been a veritable stew of fibers in the paint tray....

 

[PagingDrDetect]

Originally Posted by sandraladeda
By the time JB was found, JR, PR, the Whites, the Fernies, and the cop had all been in the house, all day. If PR's sweater fibers were able to migrate onto the body, into the paint tray, under the duct tape on her mouth, into the knots of the garrote, wouldn't John's, Burke's, Fleet's, Priscilla's, etc. have done so too?

Good point. With the way some people think fibers wing themselves magically into every crevice it's a wonder anyone walking into that house wouldn't instantly become a great fiber covered hairy furball.

Hey, I've got a green sweater sitting on the top of my clothes dryer down in my basement which I haven't entered in nearly 24 hours... guess what color fibers are lurking in the panties I just put on an hour ago ! Go on, guess!

 

[sandraladeda]

Thanks for that, PDD!

My point is, you can't have it both ways. If PR's sweater fibers can be explained away because fibers can float/migrate/attach themselves to anyone and anything in the whole building, then where are all the other fibers that should be all over JB and the crime scene?

 

[sandraladeda]

Good point. With the way some people think fibers wing themselves magically into every crevice it's a wonder anyone walking into that house wouldn't instantly become a great fiber covered hairy furball.

Completely off topic, and just for laughs, I have a golden retriever who sheds like mad. After spending a few minutes in my home, visitors actually do leave my home looking like great fiber covered hairy furballs!

 

[Jolynna]

My point is, you can't have it both ways. If PR's sweater fibers can be explained away because fibers can float/migrate/attach themselves to anyone and anything in the whole building, then where are all the other fibers that should be all over JB and the crime scene?

Most imortantly, if there was an intruder, why weren't the intruder's fibers all over JB and the crime scene?

Supposedly the intruder changed JonBenet's clothes, picked up and carried JonBenet and her blanket, washed JonBenet, molested her, used the garrotte and yet HIS/HER magic fibers failed to float/migrate/attach themselves where they should been found.

If there had been an intruder.

 

[rashomon]

Completely off topic, and just for laughs, I have a golden retriever who sheds like mad. After spending a few minutes in my home, visitors actually do leave my home looking like great fiber covered hairy furballs!

Lol, I know what you mean Sandra - I have a golden retriever too (wonderful breed, aren't they?). The hairs look especially impressive on dark clothing - I really can't wear dark slacks anymore, heehee.

PagingDr.D is right of course: that fibers would float around just everywhere is a lame attempt by IDIs to explain away fibers from both Patsy's and John's clothes in very incriminating places.

 

[BBB167893]

"I wonder how often ransom notes are left behind when the victim is still in the house?"

I know of ONE! And in that one, it was a family member who was the perp.

"They wrote a novel of a ransom note, throwing together multiple scenarios from the small foreign faction to clues to Access Graphics just because they wanted to delay finding the body? Not very likely imo."

I could believe this was an intruder if not for the fact that the note writer threw in everything but the kitchen sink! It was supposed to be a ransom note, but it contains very crude attempts to make it sound like the killer is some kind of political extremist. And the writer can't even agree on what KIND of extremist! At one point, it suggests Islamic militants, what with the parts about "foreign faction" and beheading. Don't forget: the name Osama Bin Laden had only started to become well known a few months before the killing. At other points, it suggests far-left elements, with rants about the "fat cats" in the style of a Ward Churchill. Couldn't be too hard to find that in Boulder. All you have to do it spit and you'll hit a socialist/anarchist.

"They needed that intruder/kidnapper element, and I also believe that they originally wanted to dump JB's body somewhere outside (which is why they wrote the note), but then didn't dare to do it for fear of being seen."

I've often thought that.

"I don't think it worked for the Ramseys in any way shape or form."

That's easy to say in hindsight.

"ETA: I should add that I do think this was done professionally."

Well, the FBI said that it was the general LACK of professionalism in this case that was a big tip-off.

"Incidentally...have you heard of any other cases where an intruder breaks into a house in an unknown fashion, take a family's child from her room and murder her in the house while the rest of her family sleeps...and then leaves a phony RN before he escapes in an unknown manner?"

No one has. The FBI said this was the only one.

"As I've said elsewhere, I don't think after committing the perfect crime such an intruder would stop...he'd continue."

Killers like that don't just stop. They either die or get caught. If this was an intruder, there would have been a hundred JonBenets by now!