Evidence Of An Intruder

[Seeker]

Who searched the basement between the first cop and John, might be something telling in this.
Obviously you are correct, there was NO chair in front of the door for either of the first two men, however that does not mean it wasn't placed there before John searched.

LOL! Sissi, you just agreed that John was down in the basement BEFORE the police or FW Jr!!

Yet John swears he was only down there once before the 1pm search with FW Jr...around 10-10:30...when he found the window open.

The police were down there after they arrived at the house, waaaaay before 10-10:30 that day.

 

[sissi]

LOL! Sissi, you just agreed that John was down in the basement BEFORE the police or FW Jr!!

Yet John swears he was only down there once before the 1pm search with FW Jr...around 10-10:30...when he found the window open.

The police were down there after they arrived at the house, waaaaay before 10-10:30 that day.

And just how did I do that? I wrote that someone went down the basement between the cop and John, that person was Fleet White. John went down yes, but after those two around 10ish.

 

[sissi]

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Who knows...given this..maybe it was a foreign faction! Given this, why wasn't the FBI involved more deeply? Likely someone smart enough to know these things wrote that ransom note, not a terrorist but a local who incorporated this "stands for" line into that note the same way he used lines from movies.

 

[BlueCrab]

I wrote that someone went down the basement between the cop and John, that person was Fleet White. John went down yes, but after those two around 10ish.

Sissi,

John says he went to the basement around 10 A.M. and said he had to remove a small chair from in front of the only door to the train room (where the broken window was). But Rick French and Fleet White, in separate visits, had already been to the train room shortly after 6 A.M., and neither of them reported a chair against the door. Why would either of them place a chair in front of the door after searching and departing the room? That wouldn't make sense. So the chair wasn't in front of the door when Rick French and Fleet White were there at around 6 A.M.

John definitely removed a chair from in front of the door -- because he said that's what he did. Therefore, the only logical answer is that John was confused about the time he did indeed remove the chair from in front of the door. It wasn't at 10 o'clock he had removed the chair -- it was much earlier, even before the 911 call was placed at 5:52 A.M.

John was obviously lying when he said he hadn't been in the basement prior to 10 A.M. He had to have been in the basement prior to that. The chair was removed BEFORE Rick French and Fleet White searched the room just after 6 A.M. John admits HE was the one who had removed the chair.

JMO

 

[twizzler333]

So John lied about everything else but told the truth about this one?

Maybe he just simply moved the chair because when someone was down there previously they simply slid the chair over as they were looking for something else (a clue maybe) and just forgot they slid the chair out of their way. The emotions were running so high that morning, I seriously doubt any of them remember much of anything exactly as it happened.

 

[BlueCrab]

Maybe he just simply moved the chair because when someone was down there previously they simply slid the chair over as they were looking for something else (a clue maybe) and just forgot they slid the chair out of their way.

Twizzler,

There were only several known people (Fleet White and 2 police officers) in the basement between the time the 911 call was placed at 5:52 A.M. and when her body was discovered at 1:05 P.M., and they were down there looking for a kidnapped JonBenet, not clues. Certainly JonBenet wasn't under the chair, so why would any of them move it; and move it no less in front of the door blocking the room containing the broken basement window? It's not likely.

The chair obviously wasn't there when Fleet White and the police conducted their separate searches, or they would have made note of it. And neither of the three would have placed the chair up against the door after they had completed searching the train room.

John denies he was ever in the basement prior to 10 A.M. But the only explanation that makes sense is John Ramsey had been in the basement prior to 6 o'clock, and during that visit he moved the chair to get into the train room. John then had a brain fart when he admitted he moved the chair. That remark incriminated him in a lie because the chair had to have been moved before 6 A.M., not at 10 A.M. Fleet White and two police officers can affirm the chair wasn't there at 6 A.M.

JMO

 

[sissi]

In my reading last night, NE police interviews, John said he had gone down there earlier than ten,closer to the hours between seven and nine. Could anyone point me to the mention of the chair in front of the door, if not, I'm "still lookin'".

 

[sissi]

"Like Patsy, John was shown a series of crime scene photographs. One showed a chair blocking the door into the train room in the basement. To get to the broken window in the cellar, someone has to go through that door. Ramsey found the chair blocking the entranceway during his first search of the basement, moved it and then moved it back, he said."

Does anyone have an explanation for this,I don't. How, after hours of police, Fleet,Fernie and John going through this house ,did that chair keep getting placed back where it was.
At one point, John and Fleet stood there studying the glass, yet AGAIN after they left this room the chair gets placed back in position, placing it there for police crime scene photos?
When John came up the stairs carrying his dead child, Fleet went back down ,touched the tape, examined the window,put a piece of glass on the suitcase, I can't help but suggest he put that chair back the last time, if he did it once can we say he didn't do it the first time? However we know John did place the chair back, as well, after Fleets trip.
Before the crime scene pictures were taken, many on the 27th, there was an army of police in and out of that house, all put that chair back? I can't make sense of this. The answer for this is going to have to be in the testimony of the first cop, the FIRST person to go down into the basement.

 

[BlueCrab]

The answer for this is going to have to be in the testimony of the first cop, the FIRST person to go down into the basement.

Sissi,

The first cop to enter the train room, and that was just several minutes after 6 A.M., was Rick French. If the chair was blocking the door at that time, I'm sure he would have made note of it. He didn't. And Fleet White entered the train room about 15 minutes later, and I'm sure he would have made note of it. He didn't.

The chair wasn't there when John and Fleet went into the train room together at 1 P.M. It's obvious the chair wasn't in front of the door for anyone but John, and that had to be BEFORE 6 A.M. because Rick French went into the train room at 6 A.M.

IMO John's foot-in-the-mouth utterance about the chair puts him in the train room long before 6 A.M., probably more like 3 A.M.; where and when he likely found JonBenet.

JMO

 

[sissi]

Sissi,

The first cop to enter the train room, and that was just several minutes after 6 A.M., was Rick French. If the chair was blocking the door at that time, I'm sure he would have made note of it. He didn't. And Fleet White entered the train room about 15 minutes later, and I'm sure he would have made note of it. He didn't.

The chair wasn't there when John and Fleet went into the train room together at 1 P.M. It's obvious the chair wasn't in front of the door for anyone but John, and that had to be BEFORE 6 A.M. because Rick French went into the train room at 6 A.M.

IMO John's foot-in-the-mouth utterance about the chair puts him in the train room long before 6 A.M., probably more like 3 A.M.; where and when he likely found JonBenet.

JMO

Does this explain why the chair is in front of the door in the crime scene photo?

 

[Seeker]

And just how did I do that? I wrote that someone went down the basement between the cop and John, that person was Fleet White. John went down yes, but after those two around 10ish.

sissi, when you wrote this

there was NO chair in front of the door for either of the first two men, however that does not mean it wasn't placed there before John searched.

it sure looked like you were saying John had to be down there before the first 2 men.
That looks like you're saying he was down there before the officer, or FW Jr....

If there was no chair there before either of the first two men, why was it there when John searched? Nobody said they had seen the chair or moved it, except John. Does anyone know when FW Jr was down in the basement? Could it have been after John? Why would you assume that Fleet was down there before John that day?

I've read so much on this case I'm sure I'm getting info confused...information overload.

 

[BlueCrab]

Does this explain why the chair is in front of the door in the crime scene photo?

Sissi,

Is there a crime scene photo showing the chair up against the door? I haven't seen one.

Even if there was, it had to have been posed (just as the ransom note was posed by putting the 3 pages back on the steps of the spiral staircase before taking a crime scene photo of them).

JMO

 

[Fran Bancroft]

Sissi,

Is there a crime scene photo showing the chair up against the door? I haven't seen one.

Even if there was, it had to have been posed (just as the ransom note was posed by putting the 3 pages back on the steps of the spiral staircase before taking a crime scene photo of them).

JMO

How did you learn of the RN being staged?

 

[Seeker]

How did you learn of the RN being staged?

Fran I think he means the photo was staged to represent what the Ramsey's said they found that morning.

When Officer French arrived the note was on the kitchen floor, or handed to him (I've read 2 different versions of how French recieved it).

It wasn't on the step of the stairs where the Ramsey's said they found it.
To show how it was found in a photograph someone would have to have laid it back out on the stair steps...

 

[Fran Bancroft]

Fran I think he means the photo was staged to represent what the Ramsey's said they found that morning.

When Officer French arrived the note was on the kitchen floor, or handed to him (I've read 2 different versions of how French recieved it).

It wasn't on the step of the stairs where the Ramsey's said they found it.
To show how it was found in a photograph someone would have to have laid it back out on the stair steps...

I understand what BC said, I'm asking "what information is available" that is consistent with BC's statement?

 

[Seeker]

Oh I see! You want to know where he got that info, or where the photo is...got it. In all honesty I can say I've never seen any such photo...
If one exists I'd like to see it too.

 

[sissi]

Oh I see! You want to know where he got that info, or where the photo is...got it. In all honesty I can say I've never seen any such photo...
If one exists I'd like to see it too.

The photo was taken on Dec.27, a day after the Ramseys left the house. Interesting that anyone would suggest the police staged the crime scenes, but evidently if one follows the remarks of Lee,it happened , with items showing up in some while not in others.
Clearly no one knows for certain except French just where that chair was before John Ramsey went down the basement, and I'm betting he doesn't remember.
I've never seen the photo, it was a question in the taped interviews, "showed this crime scene photo to Patsy, showing this to you ,John..lalala..the chair in front of the door".
Everyone who went through that house after the child was found put the chair back to insure a good crimescene photo? Seems something is not quite right.

http://www.acandyrose.com/12261996basement.gif

 

[twizzler333]

Sounds to me like a good way to stage a crime scene that is believable of an intruder coming in a basement window and leaving the same way...(NOT)
1. Go in "train room" break glass in window to appear as if someone came in the window (even though the glass WILL more than likely move forward OUT of the window instead of coming INSIDE as would normally happen in a real break in).
2. Put suitcase under window to make it look like the perp escaped by using the suitcase as a step to leave the scene.
3. Close door and prop up a chair to secure and make it look like the intruder somehow managed to go OUT the window in THAT room but was still able to prop up a chair on the OTHER side of the door you just went through and closed!

IF this is what is being suggested here, I feel bad for you all! Maybe I am not getting the significance of the chair thing. IF the Ramsey's staged this crime scene I don't think they would have propped up the chair. Perhaps there was a time when the chair had been propped up that way and that is what he is recalling. With the stress of the morning, I am sure there are things that will be remembered differently than actually was. No one would stage a crime scene that way, especially if they went to the trouble of setting up an elaborate erotic asphyxia roping scenario. If they were clear enough of the mind to think up that staging scene then they would have had a clear enough mind to have known the chair being propped would be stupid if trying to suggest someone used the basement window as a means of entry and exit.

 

[BlueCrab]

Perhaps there was a time when the chair had been propped up that way and that is what he is recalling.

Twizzler,

That is exactly what I am saying. John let the cat out of the bag when he said he moved the chair during his solo visit to the basement sometime around 10 A.M. He couldn't have moved it at that time because Officer French and Fleet White had already been in the train room at 6 P.M. and they didn't report anything about a chair blocking the door. He obviously moved the chair BEFORE 6 A.M. This means John Ramsey was in the train room before the 911 call was made, and it proves that John searched the basement before the cops got there -- even though he claims he didn't search the basement at all.

John Ramsey lied, and his own statement about moving the chair from in front of the door to get into the train room at about 10 A.M. proves he lied. John correctly recalled moving the chair, but he forgot that it actually occurred BEFORE 911 was called.

Here's some of the testimony during the 1998 interviews re' the chair:

LOU SMIT: "You said you went through the house at another period of time?" (between the time the cops got there and when he went with Fleet White at 1:05 P.M.)

JOHN RAMSEY: "Yes."

LOU SMIT: "Did you ever go down to the basement?"

JOHN RAMSEY: "Yes. I went."

LOU SMIT: "Who was with you at that time?"

JOHN RAMSEY: "I was by myself. I came down the stairs. I went in this room here. This door was kind of blocked. We had a bunch of junk down here and there was a chair that was in front of the door. Some old things. I moved the chair, went into this room, went back in here. This window was open, maybe that far (less than an inch)."

Later in the interview:

LOU SMIT: "Was there lighting down there at the time?"

JOHN RAMSEY: "With the lights off at night it would have been hazardous because there's a lot of junk piled in here. This door was kind of blocked with boxes and a little chair. And you could move the chair and walk right in. But it would have been pitch black; it would have been tough.

LOU SMIT: "Did you say you had to move that chair to get in?"

JOHN RAMSEY: "Yes."

LOU SMIT: "You didn't go to the wine cellar at that time?"

JOHN RAMSEY: "No."

LOU SMIT: "How long would you say you were down there?"

JOHN RAMSEY: "Oh, a minute. Thirty seconds to a minute."

MIKE KANE: "When was this?"

JOHN RAMSEY: "It was probably some time between seven and nine. That's as close as I can come. It was earlier in the day."

LOU SMIT: "Did you notice if any police officers had checked that before?"

JOHN RAMSEY: "NO. I didn't. I don't know. My impression was that when they first came that morning that one of them looked around."

LOU SMIT: "Would that have been before you went down there?"

JOHN RAMSEY: "Yeah. Yeah, it might."

Later in the interview:

Mike Kane: "Did you go to the basement?" (prior to making the 911 call)

JOHN RAMSEY: "No, I didn't go to the basement till later."

MIKE KANE: "Was there a reason?"

JOHN RAMSEY: "No."

MIKE KANE: "Okay. And then I think you said you did go to the basement."

JOHN RAMSEY: "Well, when I came down, I mean, one of the things I noticed, okay, that door is still blocked."

MIKE KANE: What do you mean it was blocked?"

JOHN RAMSEY: "Well, there were some boxes and there was like a barstool kind of thing sitting there. It wasn't obvious to me that anyone had gone through because I had to move the chair to get in, which I did."

But someone HAD "gone through". Officer French had gone through; Fleet White had gone through; and the crime technician had gone through, all right around 6 A.M., and the door wasn't blocked. John blew it. He unconsciously had referred to the time HE had gone through and had to move the boxes and the chair. That had to be BEFORE 6 A.M. Therefore, John apparently lied about not searching the basement prior to calling 911.

JMO

 

[UKGuy]

I agree with twizzler333 here. What is its evidentiary value. For me , a chair blocking a door, either means its a red-flag to stay out, or device to keep something inside from geting out e.g. pet dog.

Also just what does "elaborate erotic asphyxia roping scenario" imply. I understand she was killed using a ligature then hit with some blunt object ?

An intruder would live locally, may be known to the family, and probably be male.

Also the intruder may be an opportunistic felon, out on his Xmas burglary round, who upon entering the Ramsay's household finds JonBenet sitting alone snacking pinapple, Burke has gone back to bed and she she has said she will follow. But Mr Intruder decides to prevent JonBenet from making any sounds and carries her downstairs to enact an opportunistic crime.

This might be why Burke was admonished by John in the 911 call, and he asked what had been found. Burke had failed his sister by leaving her alone.