Evidence That is Incompatible With an Accident Theory

[joypath]

Does anyone know if the terms pre decomposition and pre mortem are used interchangeably in an ME report?
That would be important to know.TIA

Pre-mortem is a standardized term routinely utilized, pre decomposition, not one seen in literature as a descriptive term designating a time period.

pre mortem, peri mortem, post mortem (anti mortem) are traditional terms used.

 

[magic-cat]

LOL, you guys are missing my point. Dr.G can and will give an opinion at some point. An opinion won;t be the same as her report that contains medical certainty. Her opinion is the only thing that i am waiting for.
What I am trying to determine is if she said pre decomp on purpose as opposed to pre mortem? or if she said pre decomp because she is unable to determine pre mortem?

Those would be my two questions and i would accept her answers and opinion as 100% proof.

This has plagued my mind as well since the day I read the report...why oh why pre-decomp instead of pre-mortem? I hope they do clear this up at trial with an opinion.

I'm supposing the reason for a cliched, generic, b-grade kidnapper to use duct tape would be to silence their captive. If this was a staged posthumous kidnapping, wouldn't one piece of tape be enough to 'silence' Caylee, since she was already silent? I can only see multiple pieces of tape being used if she was still alive and struggling. For me, the layers of tape don't suggest an amateur theatrical scenario, or an accident being covered up, they suggest cruel, callous, deliberate asphyxiation.

Let me ask this obvious question. IF Caylee has been being babysat by Zenaida for two years now, she has known her her WHOLE LIFE...Why then would Zenaida NEED to put duct tape on her to "keep her quiet"? Caylee would not have screamed if she was going somewhere with Zanny...according to Cindy and Kc's version of events. Caylee LOVED Zanny! The duct tape place BY Zenaida, the nanny who loved Caylee so much she wanted to steal her for her own? That makes far less sense than KC having done it...

 

[joypath]

LOL. i don;t know how else to say it.
All I look forward to is Dr G giving her opinion as to the cause of death in her opinion.
She can say" most likely", "high probability",or anything remotely close to that for me to take it as 100% proof that the tape was instrumental in killing caylee.
The reason this is even important to me, is that to me it is the difference between murder 1 and perhaps aggravated manslaughter.
But I am not looking for exact terms to 'seal the deal" nor have I posted as such.

The terms that the Court will be looking for will be " with a high degree of medical certainity", "based on literature search and experience" and all the super fantastic terms you gave above! This is where the "battle of the "experts"" becomes the battle between the legal eagles in the manner in which each side tries to proffer their material to the Court and how they are permitted to "speak" (both the lawyers AND the expert) to the jury.

 

[ynotdivein]

Have you ever watched a mammal decompose? Their bodies do all sorts of creepy shifting.

Sorry to be gross, but this is your answer to the quote I've snipped. This is how something can fall if it is already sitting on the ground.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrSHku6-LFo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwUHrK0nLiM

Eidetic, belated thanks for posting these videos. :blowkiss: They are very helpful.

The hog's head video certainly shows exactly what would happen to a disarticulated but not duct-taped mandible laying in the open. It also made me think: so much time has passed in this case that the Body Farm has had plenty of time to attempt a decomp recreation using duct tape. Would we know if they have?

(And for anyone who hasn't watched Eidetic's vids above, don't do it too close to bedtime! Saw "Alice in Wonderland" yesterday before viewing vids and it made for a freakshow dreamscape indeed...)

 

[RainyGirl]

Under oath she can defintiely give her expert opinion. Happens all day long and that is an important piece for me which is what I am trying to say.

ITA. It is "standard operating procedure" for the Medical Examiner in a case to provide their testimony in a court of law when the decedent has been classified as any type of "suspicious death". I know of one M.E. here in our local jurisdiction who regularly blocks out chunks of time in her schedule (every single week) to fulfil her obligation to the court to provide expert testimony. It is commonplace for the M.E. to not only report on autopsy findings but to also include his or her own expert opinion/conclusions on cases that are not necessarily "cut and dry". As JBean mentioned, this happens every day, all day long in our court system. Like all of you, I am anxious to hear Dr. G's expert opinions on the circumstances surrounding dear Caylee's untimely death. Of course, it would also be fantastic if the fictional Dr. Kay Scarpetta could team up with Dr. G and offer her opinions as well!

 

[ZsaZsa]

LOL. i don;t know how else to say it.
All I look forward to is Dr G giving her opinion as to the cause of death in her opinion.
She can say" most likely", "high probability",or anything remotely close to that for me to take it as 100% proof that the tape was instrumental in killing caylee.
The reason this is even important to me, is that to me it is the difference between murder 1 and perhaps aggravated manslaughter.
But I am not looking for exact terms to 'seal the deal" nor have I posted as such.

Believe it or not I am trying to help.
Post # 277 you did say "If Dr G clarifies and says that the tape was definitely applied pre-mortem I would accept that at face value and that would answer my question about that for once and for all".
The exact term you are looking for is Pre Mortem, is it not?
But this is me getting nowhere, so I will let it rest.

 

[gamom]

Gamon, I actually looked up US Law before I posted because of my Canuckness (?), and read that Homicide and Accidental Death are separate, but will look again.

Yes, you are correct. As soon as I posted that post, I figured that out. Sorry. Now back to reading posts...:blushing:

 

[ynotdivein]

LOL, you guys are missing my point. Dr.G can and will give an opinion at some point. An opinion won;t be the same as her report that contains medical certainty. Her opinion is the only thing that i am waiting for.
What I am trying to determine is if she said pre decomp on purpose as opposed to pre mortem? or if she said pre decomp because she is unable to determine pre mortem?

Those would be my two questions and i would accept her answers and opinion as 100% proof.

JBean, funny enough my first searches on this topic returned WS threads in the top three slots! LOL

I am not Dr. G nor do I play one on TV, but I do know that scientific language is exacting. "Pre/ante-mortem" (before death) should not be interchangeable with "pre/ante-decomposition" (before decay).

One word I do not think she used in her report is "peri-mortem" (either shortly before, at, or shortly after time of death). The fact that this term is available to her and certainly would be in her expert vocabulary makes me think that she chose "pre-decomposition" purposefully, because that is the only certainty that she has about when that tape was applied.

Which conclusion I do not like :snooty:, but must face up to.

 

[logicalgirl]

Hi LG. I did not see 'tightly applied" in the autopsy or supplemental reports. It is a subtle distinction but an important distinction nonetheless. the supplemental reports does make inferences, but that is not one of them.

Probably of no conesquence but it is worth noting.

Sorry, my assumption of course, since the mandible was still in place and she had to cut it out of the hair. Loosely or anything other than tightly applied to me suggests it may not have remained in place but slipped down below the jawline.

 

[JBean]

ITA. It is "standard operating procedure" for the Medical Examiner in a case to provide their testimony in a court of law when the decedent has been classified as any type of "suspicious death". I know of one M.E. here in our local jurisdiction who regularly blocks out chunks of time in her schedule (every single week) to fulfil her obligation to the court to provide expert testimony. It is commonplace for the M.E. to not only report on autopsy findings but to also include his or her own expert opinion/conclusions on cases that are not necessarily "cut and dry". As JBean mentioned, this happens every day, all day long in our court system. Like all of you, I am anxious to hear Dr. G's expert opinions on the circumstances surrounding dear Caylee's untimely death. Of course, it would also be fantastic if the fictional Dr. Kay Scarpetta could team up with Dr. G and offer her opinions as well!

Thank you!

 

[JBean]

The terms that the Court will be looking for will be " with a high degree of medical certainity", "based on literature search and experience" and all the super fantastic terms you gave above! This is where the "battle of the "experts"" becomes the battle between the legal eagles in the manner in which each side tries to proffer their material to the Court and how they are permitted to "speak" (both the lawyers AND the expert) to the jury.

I concur and I will go out on a limb and say in advance that I will take Dr.G's opinion as the correct one even before she gives it. How is that for confidence?
Thank you Joypath.

 

[joypath]

"What I am trying to determine is if she said pre decomp on purpose as opposed to pre mortem? or if she said pre decomp because she is unable to determine pre mortem?"


I took this quote from one post (JB) but it has been referred to within many posts so maybe this will help clear up some of the jargonese:

The statement "pre decomp" was made because of the condition of the presentation of the skull when received for evaluation. Given the time since Caylee was last confirmed seen by somebody other than the felon, one would assume that the entire structure would be totally disarticulated based on experience and medical literature, it was not. Factoring the issues of temperature in June, the musculature/ligamental decomposition would have been rapid and the mandible should have "dropped" quickly NO MATTER what position the body was entombed. Thus, an external mechanical means provided a support for the internal structures.

Pre mortem: from the Latin (a nobel language that a bunch of NUNS hoodwinked me into studying, telling me how valuable it would be in my future!) means before death and unfortunately, since there are no biological markers present on the tape (like vomit or saliva) there is no way to confirm that this was placed on while Caylee was alive. UNLESS there are discovery items not yet released but I doubt it! (OH to have tiny teeth marks on the innermost piece!)
So....Yep, no way to determine if the tape was applied pre mortem.

And as usual.....I've rambled on! sorry!:twocents:

 

[logicalgirl]

It must be my muddled brain. She can't say pre-mortem because if it had been placed pre-mortem, she is saying it killed her. And she can't say it killed her because she can't scientifically say what the cause of death is without a doubt.

But she does know it was placed decomp.

Help me out here - what am I not understanding?

 

[joypath]

it must be my muddled brain. She can't say pre-mortem because if it had been placed pre-mortem, she is saying it killed her. And she can't say it killed her because she can't scientifically say what the cause of death is without a doubt.

But she does know it was placed decomp.

Help me out here - what am i not understanding?

ya got it!

 

[ynotdivein]

It must be my muddled brain. She can't say pre-mortem because if it had been placed pre-mortem, she is saying it killed her. And she can't say it killed her because she can't scientifically say what the cause of death is without a doubt.

But she does know it was placed decomp.

Help me out here - what am I not understanding?

logicalgirl, I do not want to muddy the waters further here but... I'm gonna. Because we (and Doc G) have options here:

1 - the tape was placed pre-mortem and actually caused suffocation/death
2 - the tape was placed pre-mortem but some other mechanism actually caused the death {think an OD'd Caylee who seems not to be breathing but is still alive while tape is applied}
3 - the tape was placed post-mortem fairly soon after Caylee had died of other means (an OD for example)
4 - the tape was placed post-mortem long after Caylee had died and after significant decomp had begun.

Option 4 is the only one that Dr. G's analysis so far has precluded.

 

[logicalgirl]

logicalgirl, I do not want to muddy the waters further here but... I'm gonna. Because we (and Doc G) have options here:

1 - the tape was placed pre-mortem and actually caused suffocation/death
2 - the tape was placed pre-mortem but some other mechanism actually caused the death {think an OD'd Caylee who seems not to be breathing but is still alive while tape is applied}
3 - the tape was placed post-mortem fairly soon after Caylee had died of other means (an OD for example)
4 - the tape was placed post-mortem long after Caylee had died and after significant decomp had begun.

Option 4 is the only one that Dr. G's analysis so far has precluded.

Not muddling (muddying?) the waters at all - at least for me. IMO - I believe there is no way the death was accidental, and I also believe Caylee was sedated before the tape was applied. And it killed her. But I can't prove it. And logic tells me if the tape was placed pre-decomp, it wasn"t an accident. What mother is cool and level headed enough to lovingly place duct tape and a heart shape sticker on her dead child's face immediately after death? IMO - it didn't happen that way.

That's why I think the pre-decomp statement is vital to this case.

 

[logicalgirl]

To continue, am I expected to believe the flurry of phone calls Casey made to Cindy and George on the 16th was to tell them - I had an accident and Caylee is dead and I've bound her mouth and nose with duct tape, now what should I do?

Would anyone believe that?

 

[Eidetic]

Dr. Garvagalia's opinion given at the bottom of page 2 over to 3 was enough to satisfy me
http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/medical_examiners_report.pdf

 

[ynotdivein]

To continue, am I expected to believe the flurry of phone calls Casey made to Cindy and George on the 16th was to tell them - I had an accident and Caylee is dead and I've bound her mouth and nose with duct tape, now what should I do?

Would anyone believe that?

No. But unfortunately some segment of the population would believe a flurry of phone calls to tell CA/GA that there was an accident, and then when no one answered, KC was backed in a corner and got all artsy craftsy with the duct tape and stickers.

And yet another segment of the population would think that the flurry of phone calls happened while Caylee was still alive and KC was looking for a babysitter for the night--and when no one answered, well... KC got all artsy craftsy with the duct tape and the stickers.

Two very different possible stories there. :frown:

 

[ynotdivein]

For review:

"CONCLUSION/OPINION: As is often the case with a skeletonized individual, the exact cause of death cannot be determined with certainty. The manner of death is an opinion based on available information, including circumstances surrounding the death, information from the scene, and examination of the skeletal remains.
The circumstances of death are that this toddler child, with no known medical history. Was not reported missing to authorities for approximately 30 days. This child’s remains were eventually found in a wooded overgrown area, discarded with two trash bags and a laundry bag. Although there is no trauma evident on the skeleton, there is duct tape over the lower facial region still attached to head hair. This duct tape was clearly placed prior to decomposition, keeping the mandible in place.
The clustering of vertebrae at the scene separate from the location of the bags and skull indicate animal activity occurring at this location after decomposition started, but before complete disarticulation of the skeleton. This indicates the body was put in this location prior to complete skeletonization. The roots growing into the vertebrae and bags indicate that the body was placed there months prior to being found. There is nothing inconsistent with the body being placed there soon after the date of being last seen alive.
It is, thus, my opinion that, although the cause of death cannot be determined with certainty, the manner of death is homicide."