Explosion Boston Marathon #2

[corundogs]

I disagree.

The primary value of this site is the exploration and vetting of theories and ideas around crimes. Even though this process will produce a lot of noise, the best ideas will be shared, vetted, and passed on to become starting points, not conclusions for law enforcement. We just don't know when something uncovered here will connect the right dots and become meaningful, so we should keep trying. It's the best way we can contribute.

Like it or not, these photos were taken in public at the scene of a major crime and the people shown do not have any expectation of privacy. Even if discussion of the circumstances in photos were to lead to someone being "wrongfully" questioned about the case.. tough beans. This case won't be solved by being timid with potential witnesses or perps.

Obscuring the faces materially restricts the value of the discussion and ability for people to add to the sum of observations. Take away the meat of the investigative material, and we're just a bunch of people squaking to each other about groping in the dark.

I've not seen anyone make too much out of these conjectures or present them as anything but theories, so I think the use of them has been responsible and maybe even helpful.

The FBI called for all leads, photos, video, "no detail too small". They didn't call for us to be cautious and reserved.

A better improvement for this forum would be to encourage us to stay current with the thread before posting so we're not rehashing things that have been brought up 10 times already.

I see both sides of this argument.

One side, like this whole guy in the black clothing that was burned off running away. He was most likely hurt and that picture has been shown on GMA already 3 times in an hour and discussed by George. That's just not right.

However, if he was involved, or the photo of the guy in the blue holding a similar if not exact backpage...these are now viral. Someone who knows these people are likely to see them.

They can then say "OMG, he has been acting weird lately!" or whatever. Or to say NO, he could not be involved because of...etc

Ruling out or in fact, ruling in...that's helpful to law enforcement.

It's a fine line. And I would like to think all innocent people who are called out and then cleared would understand. It might make them angry for a minute, but the bigger picture should prevail.

Add to that, the FBI is ASKING for this to happen...so I say run with it. But once a person is "cleared" it needs to be dropped! No pushing conspiracy theories, IMO!

 

[believe09]

http://cognoscenti.wbur.org/2013/04/16/boston-resilience-jim-walsh

Boston is not the biggest city in America; it is not the most politically powerful. But it has an inner determination and power that only the foolish ignore. Next year, at the 118th running of the Boston Marathon, I confidently predict there will be more runners and more supporters than ever before.


The attackers, whoever they are must be incompetent.


They picked on the wrong city.

 

[Cappuccino]

Poor guy! Worth reading:

The Saudi Marathon Man, New Yorker

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blo...n-man.html#commentAnchor_nyr_2000000002234628

Excellent article. I bet the author's right about the reason for peoples' suspicions too - in a moment of panic most of us, even atheists, are likely to blurt out something like "oh my God." Saudi Arabians do the same, only they don't use the same word for God.

Its a sad comment on the times when a panicked cry to God is seen as a reason to suspect someone of mass murder.

 

[cityslick]

I see both sides of this argument.

One side, like this whole guy in the black clothing that was burned off running away. He was most likely hurt and that picture has been shown on GMA already 3 times in an hour and discussed by George. That's just not right.

However, if he was involved, or the photo of the guy in the blue holding a similar if not exact backpage...these are now viral. Someone who knows these people are likely to see them.

They can then say "OMG, he has been acting weird lately!" or whatever. Or to say NO, he could not be involved because of...etc

Ruling out or in fact, ruling in...that's helpful to law enforcement.

It's a fine line. And I would like to think all innocent people who are called out and then cleared would understand. It might make them angry for a minute, but the bigger picture should prevail.

Add to that, the FBI is ASKING for this to happen...so I say run with it. But once a person is "cleared" it needs to be dropped! No pushing conspiracy theories, IMO!

BBM

This is where it goes off the rails IMO. You start looking at pics and then one person or another gets singled out due to a variety of factors, then conjecture and speculation run rapid as to what the person is actually doing when in reality the person may just be standing watching the race.

One thing that I have also noticed (since the conversation touches on profiling), how come nobody's pointed out any suspicious women yet (if not the bomber, an accomplice)?

 

[cityslick]

Excellent article. I bet the author's right about the reason for peoples' suspicions too - in a moment of panic most of us, even atheists, are likely to blurt out something like "oh my God." Saudi Arabians do the same, only they don't use the same word for God.

Its a sad comment on the times when a panicked cry to God is seen as a reason to suspect someone of mass murder.

It bothered me when those two arab men were taken off a flight at Logan simply because they were talking to each other in a middle eastern language. That kind of nonsense went on a ton after 9/11, it was wrong then and it's wrong now.

 

[solvinit]

I guess I am confused about these pictures.

To ME, it seems the victims were close to the fence/barrier. In the photo where we clearly see Krystal and her friend, and I believe the Mom who lost her son and daughter who lost a leg, they are relatively close up front. And since I think that picture was taken about 30 minutes before the bomb went off, I am going to guess that some of those people in front had moved on, and they got closer.

Something like this is a very fluid crowd situation. People are up front to watch their loved one, and once they pass, they move on. People behind them then move up.

Then in other pictures (particularly the ones that show Lens Crafters) it shows a scorch mark on the ground, but that is back near the wall. And there is NO BLOOD in those shots, so how can that be the blast site?

I am clearly confused. LOL!! But these photos aren't fitting the whole picture to me.

This particular question of exactly where the first bomb may have been is an important one. Time consuming and difficult to piece together.

If you carefully review some of the videos showing the first explosion, particularly those showing the explosion from the starting line looking towards the incoming runners, it becomes clearer in context.

The location of the explosion indeed appears to be where the "black spot" is near Lenscrafters. I believe this is were the bomb was placed. And this is where the early bomb techs were focused. So how did all those people up near the street get the worst of it?

Viewing the explosion from the street, you can see the energy of the blast directed in a "channel" or "lane" running from the Lencrafters wall straight out to the street. Everyone in this path was in grave danger. Everyone just outside it was fine. From the street, with eyes on the blue banners that draped the barriers, you can see the banners "blow out" right in this channel.

The injuries seem consistent with the bomb being laid on the ground. At foot/leg level, the projectiles or "shrapnel" could penetrate deeper into the group than if the bomb had been at chest level and obstructed by "center mass".

The explosion was something like laying a very large shotgun on the ground and firing it through the crowd's legs.

 

[Sonya610]

... in a moment of panic most of us, even atheists, are likely to blurt out something like "oh my God." Saudi Arabians do the same, only they don't use the same word for God.

Actually I don't think they would say something like that. Muslims see every action as "God's Will", they don't constantly ask God for things or use his name in vain the way others do.

When they say "Allahu akbar!" they are showing happiness/gratitude and giving God credit (God is Great), I can't see one using God's name after a horrific bombing which greatly upset them.

 

[Gardenlady]

But remember that Arab Christians also use the word Allah for God. Just look at the liturgical texts of any of the catholic or orthodox middle eastern rites, there it is.

Someone calling on Allah could be Muslim or Christian. It's not a reason for suspicion.

Edit - I forgot to say - this in no way to imply that Christians would never do anything suspicious or wrong. We all know that isn't true heh.

 

[solvinit]

It bothered me when those two arab men were taken off a flight at Logan simply because they were talking to each other in a middle eastern language. That kind of nonsense went on a ton after 9/11, it was wrong then and it's wrong now.

It bothered me more when I saw 10-20 people's legs blown off on the sidewalk.

Most people here have been looking for odd bags or suspicious circumstances, not brown vs. white, and women have also been pointed out. I've not seen much discriminatory profiling.

 

[Cappuccino]

Actually I don't think they would say something like that. Muslims see every action as "God's Will", they don't constantly ask God for things or use his name in vain the way others do.

When they say "Allahu akbar!" they are showing happiness over success and giving God credit (God is Great), I can't see one using God's name after a horrific bombing which greatly upset them.

You obviously haven't had much contact with them then. I can easily imagine a muslim in a moment of stress or panic blurting out "Ya Allah" (oh God), or even "Ya rasool Allah", (oh Prophet of God). In fact, I've seen them do it, although thankfully not because of something as serious as a bomb blast.

 

[Sonya610]

Just had a thought -- some of us may have wondered why the bomber set the blasts 2 hours after the first runners crossed the finish line.

Maybe that was intentional to help avoid being caught on camera? Maybe the news film crews would be getting aerial shots which would capture the crowd (and the bombers movements) at that time but 2 hours later it would be less likely? Seems like most all of the photos we are seeing have been at the ground level, wouldn't they have also filmed the finish line from higher up to capture the first runners crossing?

 

[Gardenlady]

It bothered me more when I saw 10-20 people's legs blown off on the sidewalk.

Most people here have been looking for odd bags or suspicious circumstances, not brown vs. white, and women have also been pointed out. I've not seen much discriminatory profiling.

There were quite a few people posting the name of the young Saudi national, and articles about him before his name released as well, despite the fact that local LE had already said (and I posted many times here) that he was NOT a suspect.

It's all too quick for people to fall into discriminatory practices when their fear and hatreds are whipped up.

 

[Elley Mae]

BBM

This is where it goes off the rails IMO. You start looking at pics and then one person or another gets singled out due to a variety of factors, then conjecture and speculation run rapid as to what the person is actually doing when in reality the person may just be standing watching the race.

One thing that I have also noticed (since the conversation touches on profiling), how come nobody's pointed out any suspicious women yet (if not the bomber, an accomplice)?

You know at first I did not think about the people's faces being on the front pages of probably every news papers, and then have alot of viewing eyes picking apart every detail that seems to be out of place.
Then I remembered that every year there is a bridge walk and a swim in the bay in the winter and every body wants their picture to be on the front pages. I for one think that law enforcement wants all the help that it can get, we will probably be seeing more pictures (leaked) like the backpack to help pin down who this is. jmo

 

[believe09]

I disagree.

The primary value of this site is the exploration and vetting of theories and ideas around crimes. Even though this process will produce a lot of noise, the best ideas will be shared, vetted, and passed on to become starting points, not conclusions for law enforcement. We just don't know when something uncovered here will connect the right dots and become meaningful, so we should keep trying. It's the best way we can contribute.

Like it or not, these photos were taken in public at the scene of a major crime and the people shown do not have any expectation of privacy. Even if discussion of the circumstances in photos were to lead to someone being "wrongfully" questioned about the case.. tough beans. This case won't be solved by being timid with potential witnesses or perps.

Obscuring the faces materially restricts the value of the discussion and ability for people to add to the sum of observations. Take away the meat of the investigative material, and we're just a bunch of people squaking to each other about groping in the dark.

I've not seen anyone make too much out of these conjectures or present them as anything but theories, so I think the use of them has been responsible and maybe even helpful.

The FBI called for all leads, photos, video, "no detail too small". They didn't call for us to be cautious and reserved.

Poor guy! Worth reading:

The Saudi Marathon Man, New Yorker

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blo...n-man.html#commentAnchor_nyr_2000000002234628

I am curious as to how many sleuthers have been involved in a situation like this one where they or their loved ones have been plastered every where and picked out of a crowd in relation to an event-singled out and pondered in relation to a crime?

Although imperfect, WS works really hard to try and be sensitive to linking people and situations to crimes when they havent been linked via MSM or law enforcement. There are exceptions, but the exceptions are dictated by the owners of the site.

IIRC, LE wants media sent to them. I dont recall them indicating that they should be posted and picked over first or even additionally. If you have media associated with the race, the responsible thing to do is to turn it over and leave it off the www in the event that it may actually show something relevant. This is a fluid situation with most likely media savvy offenders-why give them information?

As to this comment:

A better improvement for this forum would be to encourage us to stay current with the thread before posting so we're not rehashing things that have been brought up 10 times already.

We are pretty much newbie friendly and welcome people to jump in to a discussion at any point. Someone is always at the ready to bring folks up to speed-it is part of helping each other along. When a topic is hot, the thread pages move very quickly which can be a challenge.

 

[fruity]

Should we be posting the name of the Chinese student? The family has asked for it not to be released.

 

[Sonya610]

There were quite a few people posting the name of the young Saudi national, and articles about him before his name released as well, despite the fact that local LE had already said (and I posted many times here) that he was NOT a suspect.

Keep in mind the Saudi kid is here on a student visa, we can assume he will be going home to live out his life once he graduates. The fact his name was used here in the states won't matter once he returns home to Saudi so this won't cast suspicion on him for the rest of his life.

 

[PHB]

Actually I don't think they would say something like that. Muslims see every action as "God's Will", they don't constantly ask God for things or use his name in vain the way others do.

When they say "Allahu akbar!" they are showing happiness/gratitude and giving God credit (God is Great), I can't see one using God's name after a horrific bombing which greatly upset them.

BBM
They do.
If you have a strong stomach check out liveleak.com and search "syrian rebels". It seems like every other fighter has a cameraphone, and unlike youtube, nothing is censored. They yell "Allah Akbar" in the middle of shootouts, after blowing up tanks and choppers, and when the guy next to them gets his head blown off. Its also a greeting, the Yemeni guys at my local deli use it for hello and goodbye.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Keep in mind the Saudi kid is here on a student visa, we can assume he will be going home to live out his life once he graduates. The fact his name was used here in the states won't matter once he returns home to Saudi so this won't cast suspicion on him for the rest of his life.

Why can we assume that he will going home?

 

[wfgodot]

Just had a thought -- some of us may have wondered why the bomber set the blasts 2 hours after the first runners crossed the finish line.

Maybe that was intentional to help avoid being caught on camera? Maybe the news film crews would be getting aerial shots which would capture the crowd (and the bombers movements) at that time but 2 hours later it would be less likely? Seems like most all of the photos we are seeing have been at the ground level, wouldn't they have also filmed the finish line from higher up to capture the first runners crossing?

This also may provide a reason:

---
David Monti, editor and publisher of Race Results Weekly, said because the Boston Marathon has a staggered start, “finisher density was high” when the bombs exploded.
---
Based on last year’s finish, more than half of the runners — or about 11,000 people — would have crossed the finish line within 30 minutes of the first two explosions.
---

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/16/us/explosions-reported-at-site-of-boston-marathon.html?_r=0

 

[Cappuccino]

Keep in mind the Saudi kid is here on a student visa, we can assume he will be going home to live out his life once he graduates. The fact his name was used here in the states won't matter once he returns home to Saudi so this won't cast suspicion on him for the rest of his life.

Not much consolation for the poor guy given that his name was all over Al Jazeera too.