Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #2

[Elley Mae]

JMO but I took it to mean that the hospital does not have to assist with the transfer regarding the trach and G-tube. The family had asked the judge to require the hospital to do those procedures. They don't have to per the court.

I hope for them that they continue to deny those procedures.

 

[Softail]

Ok, so here are MY OPINIONS.....

I had to step away from this thread lastnight. This whole thing has disgusted me soooo much.

I really don't understand any celebrations, or claims of winning, or any of that. Who won? :waitasec: Did Jahi win? If so, what did she win? Another week of being the main attraction of a sick circus show?

At this point, I would have to wonder if the hospital should or would ask the court to do a psych evaluation on the mother. She has claimed in a written letter to the public that she knows she was pronounced dead, yet claims she has a right to life? :waitasec: She goes on to discuss HER rights. Again, I ask what about Jahi's RIGHT to die with some dignity? After all, she is already dead, and has certainly had no dignity.

"We wish to acknowledge that Jahi's case, and our stance regarding her right to life, and her mother's right to make decisions regarding her child, has stirred a vibrant, sometimes polarizing, national debate. This was never our intention.

"We acknowledge that the odds are stacked against us. We know that the doctors have pronounced her dead"

"We asked for help because we felt our rights were being trampled by Children's and that they were going to override a mother's medical directive for their own interests, damage control. Our lawyer has helped us, day and night, for free."
http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking...ly-attorney-release-letter-addressing-critics

These claims by lay people that she must be alive, because her heart is still beating? :waitasec: It is beating by mechanical means. I don't understand why this is such a difficult concept to grasp. I think it was Swampmamma who posted a few days ago that Jahi is no different than a person who is decapitated. She has NO brain function. At all.

So, now IF, and that is a big IF, she is shipped off to some other facility, then what? For those who say it is none of our business, it became our business once the family has made this the public circus that it has become. Weekend at Bernie's indeed.

I'm not sorry if I sound harsh. This poor little girl deserves better in my opinion. For those who say they would do the same for their child.... Really? You would make a mockery of her death? WOW!

I would also have to wonder if CPS needs to be brought in to check on her other children. :waitasec: This woman is not stable, IMO!

This has just gone beyond insanity, and stupidity in my opinion. So, yeah, I'm not on the hospital's side, or the family. I'm on Jahi's side! Hopefully soon she will be able to rest IN PEACE. :rose: :rose:

P.S. I really did begin to have some compassion for this family yesterday as the deadline loomed. Lost it all very quickly after they filed the TRO.

 

[Sonya610]

I'm the one who originally posted those documents. I read all documents. Where does it say in the document that the doctor did not find her brain dead? Please quote the line.

Facts, as in actual statements documented in court, have nothing to do with this argument apparently. I think that explains a whole lot as to how this situation came about in the first place.

All some folks have to do is throw out the words "Injustice" and "Rights" and they will have hundreds of thousands of supporters backing them up no matter how illogical their statements might be.

 

[Elley Mae]

Softail great post. weekend at Bernie's is one of my favorites.

 

[Softail]

Softail great post. weekend at Bernie's is one of my favorites.

Thanks!

 

[Donjeta]

I actually do not believe that any of us have an unlimited right to live or the right to decide if our child lives or dies. The courts cannot grant us that.

We have rights, don't get me wrong. We have the right to make certain medical decisions for ourselves and our minor children, and the law makes every effort to protect us from people who would try to harm us.

But some things are just beyond our control and beyond the control of the courts. The courts can say that no one should kill you and that if someone does they will be punished, or they can say that no one should remove you from a ventilator without your mother's consent. What they can't do is give you the right to live or your mother the right to decide that you should live, if you're already dead.

 

[MissJ]

I hope for them that they continue to deny those procedures.

TA. Absolutely.

 

[momrids6]

Bay Area’s only Level 1 Pediatric Trauma Center designated by the State of California

An average of 700 trauma patients per year require Children’s trauma team activation

Most major trauma victims in Alameda and Contra Costa Counties under age 14 will be brought to the Emergency Department at Children’s Hospital & Research Center Oakland.

Critically-injured children across Northern California and from as far away as Nevada are transferred and transported to Children’s Hospital & Research Center Oakland.

http://www.childrenshospitaloakland.org/main/departments-services/trauma-care-68.aspx


ETA: There are only 23 beds in their PICU....

 

[oyeyemi808]

This poor child. Actually, I believe Jahi is already in heaven so now I'm thinking "her poor siblings".

Really???

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk

 

[SwampMama]

Excellent article by a neurologist about Jahi's case and what the realities are and how he has dealt with such cases.
http://sleepdisorders.about.com/b/2013/12/31/jahi-mcmath-died-and-what-followed-has-been-tragic.htm

"Jahi McMath Died and What Followed Has Been Tragic

By Brandon Peters, M.D.December 31, 2013

"In recovery from surgery, ......... it seems that she began to bleed profusely before she went into cardiac arrest. What may have triggered this? .......... It is possible that she may have choked on her own blood and that this may have led to asphyxiation, depriving her brain of oxygen. Another equally plausible explanation would be that she lost such a volume of blood that her blood pressure dipped and, in a state of decreased blood flow to the brain, it was irreparably injured. Either scenario may be associated with a heart attack, as has been described. Regardless, the insult was fatal.

People with severe brain damage or even brain death may still have reflexive movements that are mediated not by the brain or brainstem, but by the spinal cord. One example is called the triple flexion response. In squeezing the big toe, for example, the foot at the ankle, leg at the knee, and leg at the hip may all draw up. This is a reflex, similar to testing the stretch reflex of the patellar tendon at the knee. It is an action of the muscle, peripheral nerves, and spinal cord, and doesn't involve the brain. To sort out purposeful movements, rather than reflexive ones, the painful stimulus is often applied to the top of the foot. If the person is conscious, they will move the foot away from the stimulus to escape the pain. The reflex will draw the foot towards it. These subtleties, and there are many, require the expertise of the neurologist to differentiate.

When the brain is dead, when there is no chance of recovering the person who has been lost, it is not ethical to keep the body's tissues alive artificially. Once the machine is turned off, the body functions will also cease. Therefore, the machines are understood to be sustaining the function of tissues that cannot now, or will not ever, sustain themselves independently. Much like blowing air into an empty paper sack, when the effort to inflate the sack ceases, it stills.

 

[SwampMama]

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/loca...n-to-Keep-Girl-on-Life-Support-238139271.html

"Dr. Paul Graham Fisher, Stanford School of Medicine Chief of Pediatric Neurology, was appointed by.......Judge Evelio Grillo ......... Fisher presented his findings to the court on Dec. 24.

Fisher said there was "electrocerebral silence," along with no eye movement, no vocalization, no gag reflex and no spinal reflex, among other things listed in his redacted notes (PDF) ....... "Overall, unfortunate circumstances in 13-year-old with known, irreversible brain injury and non complete absence of cerebral function and complete absence of brainstem function, child meets all criteria for brain death," Fisher wrote.

Afterward, the judge ruled that Jahi was "legally dead."

The family enlisted the help of Dr. Paul Byrne in Ohio, a Catholic doctor who told NBC Bay Area last week that "brain death" is not "true death,".....

The majority of Western doctors, neuro scientists and ethicists, however, don't agree with Byrne.

Arthur Caplan, director of the Division of Medical Ethics at NYU Langone Medical Center, said .....that there are a "tiny number of religious groups who don't accept brain death until there is cardiac death."

But state law considers brain death the same as "death." And Caplan said Children's Hospital doctors got into an unusual position when they didn't simply take Jahi off the ventilator the first time the EEG came back negative. Instead, they gave the family more than a few minutes to say goodbye.

And in that time, a slippery slope was created, Caplan said. He asked rhetorically if the Jahi case now will have people running "to court if they refuse to accept ...death?"


Dr Fischer's note on Jahi http://media.nbcbayarea.com/documents/Fisher+-+Redacted+Rpt_1.pdf

 

[momrids6]

In the state of California, only hospitals, coroners, and morticians are licensed to transfer corpses. Special permits may be obtained, but certain regulations have to be followed:

California Health and Safety Code 7355:

(a) Except as provided in subdivision (b), the bodies of persons who have died from any cause shall not be received for transportation by a common carrier unless the body has been embalmed and prepared by a licensed embalmer and placed in a sound casket and enclosed in a transportation case.

(b) A dead body, which cannot be embalmed or is in a state of decomposition, shall be received for transportation by a common carrier if the body is placed in an airtight metal casket enclosed in a strong transportation case or in a sound casket enclosed in an airtight metal or metal-lined transportation case.

 

[Elley Mae]

Also on Monday, the family’s lawyer filed suit in federal court, requesting that the hospital be compelled to perform a tracheotomy for breathing and to insert a feeding tube — procedures that would allow Jahi to be transferred to a facility willing to care for her. The hospital has said it’s unethical to perform surgery on a person who is legally dead.

http://www.dailynews.com/general-news/20131230/california-girl-to-remain-on-ventilator-until-jan-7

bbm, This I am wanting to hear what the decision will be.

 

[Sonya610]

And in that time, a slippery slope was created, Caplan said. He asked rhetorically if the Jahi case now will have people running "to court if they refuse to accept ...death?"

If they get their way it will cause more to go to court and ask for the same thing. Other families that can't accept death or are angry at the circumstances will demand that THEIR dead child be treated as special too!

And as far as judging, if the family didn't want to be judged they should have kept this matter PRIVATE and not called on the media to rile up the public, have marches at the hospital, accuse the hospital of being unjust and violating their civil rights etc....

They asked for the public at large to "judge" this situation and that is exactly what is happening here.

 

[Softail]

Also on Monday, the family’s lawyer filed suit in federal court, requesting that the hospital be compelled to perform a tracheotomy for breathing and to insert a feeding tube — procedures that would allow Jahi to be transferred to a facility willing to care for her. The hospital has said it’s unethical to perform surgery on a person who is legally dead.

http://www.dailynews.com/general-news/20131230/california-girl-to-remain-on-ventilator-until-jan-7

bbm, This I am wanting to hear what the decision will be.

Ditto. I would think it will be the same as the lower court. At least I hope so. How can a court make a doctor do this? :waitasec:

 

[Donjeta]

Also on Monday, the family’s lawyer filed suit in federal court, requesting that the hospital be compelled to perform a tracheotomy for breathing and to insert a feeding tube — procedures that would allow Jahi to be transferred to a facility willing to care for her. The hospital has said it’s unethical to perform surgery on a person who is legally dead.

http://www.dailynews.com/general-news/20131230/california-girl-to-remain-on-ventilator-until-jan-7

bbm, This I am wanting to hear what the decision will be.

How often does the federal court compel hospitals to perform surgery on living people?

 

[SwampMama]

"..Medical doctors are legally and ethically obligated to discontinue medically futile care when brain death has been determined. In most cases, the family will be informed of the situation, given a chance to gather and say goodbye, and the machines will be turned off. This is the standard of care. This is what happens in intensive care units throughout the world. For some reason, which is not fully apparent, this is not what happened to Jahi McMath in Oakland.

The window of opportunity was left open and ignorance flooded in. Belief that she could recover defied medical reason. Even despite multiple physicians attesting to her brain death, her family clings to the hope that she will come back to them. No one with brain death has ever done so. Lawyers took the place of doctors. Decision-making by those with the expertise, the experience, the understanding of medicine was undermined by legal wrangling. Religious figures, dubious ethicists, and a parade of attention-seekers marched into view.

The death of Jahi McMath is extraordinarily sad. Such a complication occurs rarely, thankfully, but when it does it shatters a family's world. It is not uncaring, unfeeling, or unbelieving for her medical providers to assert the fact that she died. When so determined, their role was to promptly turn off the unnecessary machines. A moment of loss has been prolonged into an enduring tragedy. It was the responsibility of her doctors to put an end to it. By deferring the termination of her life support, her death can be denied and the law can struggle with making decisions that should never have been offered to it. Her doctors failed her, in that moment of greatest need, and we fail her still the longer we perpetuate her inevitable end."

http://http://sleepdisorders.about.com/b/2013/12/31/jahi-mcmath-died-and-what-followed-has-been-tragic.htm

I completely agree and am glad that an experienced neurologist has voiced it so clearly.

 

[Donjeta]

Sam Singer, a hospital spokesman, said it would comply with the judge’s new order but would oppose any efforts by Jahi’s family to convince a court that she is still alive and entitled to the same rights as a living person.

In a declaration filed with the federal action by Jahi’s family, Dr. Paul Byrne, a pediatrician who has questioned the definition of brain death, said he visited Jahi’s bedside and observed her responding to her grandmother’s voice and touch with a squirming movement.

“In my professional opinion, she is not a cadaver,” Byrne said. “Her heart beats thousands of times a day.”

http://www.dailynews.com/general-news/20131230/california-girl-to-remain-on-ventilator-until-jan-7

His testimony seems pointless. He did not need to visit Jahi to verify that her heart beats, the hospital is not denying that. He asserted his opinion on his blog already before seeing Jahi. (Apparently. I'm only assuming this visit was more recent because he didn't file a declaration last time they were in court.)

 

[CCmakes3]

Here is the hospital's letter which also states that only 2 of it's staff found Jahi brain dead. Then on 12/23 Dr Fisher agreed. On 12/24 they got the TRO to keep her on until 12/30.

The family states that she is responding to them, that must be enough of a doubt to a court of law to extend another week.

Wouldn't it be easy to just have a brain scan done?

IMO, this says it all...
But state law considers brain death the same as "death." And Caplan said Children's Hospital doctors got into an unusual position when they didn't simply take Jahi off the ventilator the first time the EEG came back negative.

Snipped and bbm. Correct me if I am wrong but I believe an EEG is a "brain scan?"

 

[Elley Mae]

Snipped and bbm. Correct me if I am wrong but I believe an EEG is a "brain scan?"

EEG refers to the recording of the brain's spontaneous electrical activity over a short period of time, usually 20–40 minutes, as recorded from multiple electrodes placed on the scalp. Diagnostic applications generally focus on the spectral content of EEG, that is, the type of neural oscillations that can be observed in EEG signals. In neurology, the main diagnostic application of EEG is in the case of epilepsy, as epileptic activity can create clear abnormalities on a standard EEG study.[2] A secondary clinical use of EEG is in the diagnosis of coma, encephalopathies, and brain death.

Electroencephalography - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I believe you are right.