Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #2

[momrids6]

How is the brain dead person on a ventillator going to be an outpatient? Don't they need a license to keep a brain dead person in their outpatient facility?

Especially since that outpatient "facility" is an office building shared with other businesses?

 

[kimlynn]

The family should have never intervened. We don't know what the nurses were doing because the hospital is not able to due to hipaa.

The family has already been proven to be less than honest. I don't have any reason to believe the accuracy of their statements.

We don't know for a fact what the nurses were doing,but if I were in that situation and I couldn't get a nurse to assist...I may well have been concerned enough to try to help a loved one as well.
IMO

 

[Herat]

Actually, from what I've read, that isn't where Jahi will first go. Apparently, the organization has stated in a letter filed with court documents they are willing to provide Jahi 24-care at their out-patient facility, which is a modern building.

The president of New Beginnings Community Center for Traumatic Brain Injury, a nonprofit outpatient rehabilitation center in Medford, said in a letter Sunday to the mother's attorney and filed with the California court that she would be "willing to open our outpatient facility to provide 24-hour care as an inpatient long-term facility for Jahi with the required and appropriate medical staff that she depends upon."


http://www.newsday.com/news/health/...th-moved-to-li-court-documents-show-1.6699484

So how are they going to get the licensure of the facility changed? Regardless of her status or insurance, they will need a CMS (Medicare) inspection to be able to change status. Do you think the New York Bureau of Health Facilities is going to drop everything and go running to accomplish this?

One quick perusal of the paper documents they could possibly submit will stop the process.

 

[Deleted member 110058]

When has a doctor who has removed organs from a corpse ever lost his license or been arrested?

Until I see a link, I'll believe this is a totally fabricated myth created by CHO.

JMO

MyBelle,

Go back and read my original post that you are responding to (above).
I am referring to a physician losing their lisence for putting in the trach tube not for harvesting organs. My husband is a Doc. It is considered illegal to operate on, futz around with, or to disrespect in any way, a corpse.
This is why the court would not rule in favor of allowing a physician to do the procedures on Jahi. She is dead and it is illegal.

 

[MyBelle]

How is the brain dead person on a ventillator going to be an outpatient? Don't they need a license to keep a brain dead person in their outpatient facility?

You missed the term "24-hour-care" which means it won't be an out-patient basis for Jahi. I know people who have kept their brain-damaged child in their home with 24-hour-nursing care so it really isn't as impossible as the hospital is insisting.

The "brain dead" determination wasn't made in New York so I'll be surprised if an effort will be made to pronounce her brain dead in New York.

JMO

 

[kimlynn]

Singer, I believe, is not an attorney, just the "spokesman". I assume that all essential parties would be necessary to participate & make it a productive meeting.

MOO

Dolan did offer up the family for the meeting which Singer ignored. I would think that as a spokesperson,Singer would at least be willing to speak to the family or the family attorney,but perhaps he just speaks to the public on behalf of the hospital.
At any rate it was a poor display on his part.

IMO

 

[Linda7NJ]

One brain dead guy supposedly lasted 20 years on a ventillator. So I fail to see how this could possibly be accurate.

Did you read the link I posted previously on the topic?
It wasn't just some quack.


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[Elley Mae]

I found it interesting that there wasn't any response at all from Singer as to a meeting to resolve issues yet he did seem willing to take the time to hurl a few insults at the attorney. Childish.
None of this is helping anyone move along. IMO

ETA Dolan asked for a time and place to discuss issues which seems reasonable to me.

Sounds very unprofessional to me. They are Lawyers and both know that everything is to be documented. He has a secretary I would think, he should probably have her set something up.

 

[MsSeal]

Hi guys, I have been following this tragic case on the tv and only just saw you guys were posting on it. I haven't read everything so you may have discussed this but what about the very few handful that have come back from brain death such as Zack Dunlap? I know a couple of others where it just turns out that the tests were done wrong or whatever and they weren't truly brain dead like doctors had thought but Zack by all accounts was. No activity/blood flow, declared dead and everything ...... There have been many medical people advising on this thread so was just curious your thoughts. This case is a hard one and I tend to lean toward letting her go in peace, but I am a hopeful creature and people such as Zack is why. :/

http://www.notdeadyet.org/2008/03/brain-dead-man-comes-alive-miracle.html

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/23768436/#.UsSb49JDupA

I had read a couple of articles on Zack and thought wait a minute -here is someone who deemed brain dead and recovered but upon further investigation this was a post by someone that led me to believe that Zack did not have accepted criteria brain death testing.

This was a post by someone answering a blogger who was posting about Zack's miraculous recovery.

The only information the public has on Zack Dunlop's case is contemporaneous news reports. Those reports state that he was declared brain dead after a PET scan showed he had no blood flow to the brain. The most commonly performed type of PET scan uses a contrast agent called 18F-FDG (fluoro-deoxyglucose in which the fluorine atom is radioactive). It is important to note that 18F-FDG PET scans have not been validated as a tool for confirming the diagnosis of brain death. The procedure in brain-injured patients is methodologically complex. 18F-FDG PET scans are not part of the protocol for assessment of patients established by the American Academy of Neurology (AAN). If Zack Dunlop was declared brain dead on the basis of an 18F-FDG PET scan, that is not evidence that people may recover from brain death, but it is evidence that making the diagnosis is not a game for amateurs.

No one diagnosed by proper application of the AAN criteria has ever recovered. Not a single person. That's what it means to be dead.

I shudder to think that Zack's physician only used a scan to determine if Zack was brain dead because obviously he was able to breathe on his own when disconnected from the ventilator and the doctor did not perform the neurological testing to be sure.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

I understand but perhaps a meeting could have helped both parties as well as Jahi and family?

The family attorney is trying to use the media to bully the hospital. The family attorney is well aware of the laws as far as what can and cannot be done. The family attorney is well aware that no physician can be forced to perform a procedure. The family attorney is also well aware that this outpatient facility is not a option that can take care of Jahi. By this time the family attorney is also well aware that no other facility or physician has stepped up to take Jahi elsewhere and keep her or perform surgery on her.

What is there for them to discuss that hasn't already been discussed?

The hospital has told them to find a facility that can and will take her. They have not found a facility that "can" take her.

 

[MyBelle]

MyBelle,

Go back and read my original post that you are responding to (above).
I am referring to a physician losing their lisence for putting in the trach tube not for harvesting organs. My husband is a Doc. It is considered illegal to operate on, futz around with, or to disrespect in any way, a corpse.
This is why the court would not rule in favor of allowing a physician to do the procedures on Jahi. She is dead and it is illegal.

If it was illegal, then the Hospital could have cited that reason rather than agreeing to allow an outside physician to perform the procedure.

I'll continue to believe it isn't illegal.

 

[jjenny]

Did you read the link I posted previously on the topic?
It wasn't just some quack.


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Again, if a brain dead person can last 20 years on a ventillator, then how can it possibly be accurate for somebody to claim that the heart will stop a short time after brain death?

 

[jjenny]

You missed the term "24-hour-care" which means it won't be an out-patient basis for Jahi. I know people who have kept their brain-damaged child in their home with 24-hour-nursing care so it really isn't as impossible as the hospital is insisting.

The "brain dead" determination wasn't made in New York so I'll be surprised if an effort will be made to pronounce her brain dead in New York.

JMO

If they are an outpatient facility, I presume they are not even licensed to keep a patient there full time on a ventillator (brain dead or otherwise).

 

[coeurfragile]

It was in the court filing linked up thread as to the Judge's decision that standards were not followed. My concern is that standards were not followed and no explanation has been given by the hospital as to why.

Can someone (anyone) throw this link my way? I thought I had it. I need to start a word document with all the relevant links so I can quit googling the same thing over and over again, lol!

 

[kimlynn]

Sounds very unprofessional to me. They are Lawyers and both know that everything is to be documented. He has a secretary I would think, he should probably have her set something up.

Be that as it may...the hosptal might want to reconsider who they have speaking out on their behalf.
You can't talk to a block or a wall and it seems to me that the hospital via Singer isn't interested in trying to work out any issues which may be why this had to go through the courts.

IMO

 

[Deleted member 110058]

There was a video posted yesterday of Dolan and Singer having words and Dolan asked for a time and date to have a meeting.
No response from Singer and Dolan asked more than once.
Not sure why the lack of communication between the parties.
IMO

Here's that link:
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/vi...er-hospital-spokesperson-confront-each-other/

 

[Linda7NJ]

There was a video posted yesterday of Dolan and Singer having words and Dolan asked for a time and date to have a meeting.
No response from Singer and Dolan asked more than once.
Not sure why the lack of communication between the parties.
IMO

IMO Singer came off as exactly what he is...although I can't imagine why people think he's exceptional at it????

Dolan appeared to be the one with integrity and the lame attempts made by Singer fell far short of making any impact.


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[kimlynn]

The family attorney is trying to use the media to bully the hospital. The family attorney is well aware of the laws as far as what can and cannot be done. The family attorney is well aware that no physician can be forced to perform a procedure. The family attorney is also well aware that this outpatient facility is not a option that can take care of Jahi. By this time the family attorney is also well aware that no other facility or physician has stepped up to take Jahi elsewhere and keep her or perform surgery on her.

What is there for them to discuss that hasn't already been discussed?

The hospital has told them to find a facility that can and will take her. They have not found a facility that "can" take her.

I have no idea,but it seems that a meeting could be had to see if this situation or issues could be resolved.
I may not agree with the choice of the family,but like Dolan,I respect their right to be heard.
IMO

 

[kimlynn]

IMO Singer came off as exactly what he is...although I can't imagine why people think he's exceptional at it????

Dolan appeared to be the one with integrity and the lame attempts made by Singer fell far short of making any impact.


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I agree. I like Dolan. He's plucky and has great respect for the feelings and rights of all.
I don't think he or the family has much chance of getting what they want...but he will give it his all.
IMO

 

[Linda7NJ]

I know living that long isn't common. I was responding to Linda who claimed that brain dead person's heart should stop within a short time even if they are on ventillator. Obvoiusly not true.

It is true and I linked it. Would you like me to link again so you can read it?

Doctors don't always agree


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