Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #2

[jjenny]

I wonder if they will force the issue of the feeding tube and tracheostomy and the judge will order the hospital to do it so the body of Jani can be "released." It would buy them even more time and they would get the procedures done. They could argue the hospital is not cooperating. I can't believe there is a surgeon at CH that would be willing to take the risk with this family though.

She is brain dead. Judge agreed she is brain dead. Under Ca laws she is legally dead. Considering this, on what basis can the judge order the hospital to do surgeries on her?

 

[SwampMama]

I was thinking the same thing. As of December 22, 2013 they just had the windows installed. They posted on their facebook page " ALL THE WINDOWS WERE INSTALLED!!!! THANK YOU Riverhead Boys' Basketball Booster Club!!!"

Sounds like volunteers helped them to put in the windows. They keep saying they would take Jahi, but the facility is not finished. Are they going to ask the community to volunteer to help hurry up and finish the place? How can you volunteer to take her when there is no facility to fly her to?

She should be allowed to rest in peace.

Maybe this place is just offering a place to help put off the court from ruling that it is time to remove life support. They can claim to have a place which would interfere with the plug being pulled because it muddies up the waters. in the meantime, it buys time. They know they still have to get all of the transport and trach issues resolved before Jahi could go there so it is not like she is going there tomorrow.

Plus, as we can see, this place is not finished, is running out of funding and depending on volunteers so I imagine they feel that Jahi can bring publicity and funding to their place. It's a win/win for the facility and Jahi's family. The facilities sees that Jahi has publicity and donations and they want to get in on that.

Anyway, it really comes off as shady and iffy. This place isn't even built and they don't even know if they will pass code to have the occupancy that they want. They clearly are NOT ready to receive her, much less car for the incredible needs of a brain dead patient.

 

[Roxye]

This child has not only been found brain dead by no less then 6 doctor but also by the CA court system. In her body is the possibility of saving no less then 5 people(children) from certain death. (possibly more!)

I understand the families hesitance, I understand them not wanting to admit. EVEN IF the hospital is at fault, Jani is not coming back, make her life mean something! Give her organs to people that can't live without them. I know that sounds harsh. I am sorry for that. But it IS the truth! The hospital can pay later. The other human lives can't wait that long! Give Jani's life meaning!!!! more then this dispute! JMO

 

[ChristYTN]

The thing that is maddening to me is the comparison to a brain damaged patient. This girl is not in a coma, not brain damaged, not vegetative, not unconscious....she is gone. Dead.
No feeding tube is going to help. It would be like putting a straw in a empty cup. Or ...more bluntly, going to the morgue and inserting a feeding tube. Absolutely pointless.

I have sympathy for their loss and can't imagine the mothers heartache.
But why has NO ONE gotten through to her?

I will say, I have a feeling when we can get the full side of the hospitals experience with this family, it might be a eye opener.
We don't know if they interfered with her care, or anything.

The suction rumor really sticks out to me.
My mother was a nurse for 40 years and has tons of stories of family interference.
Someone mentioned the family could be feeling guilt and is dragging this out for any number of those reasons.


I just really feel badly that girl is gone and its become such a circus.

 

[Steft50]

I wonder if they will force the issue of the feeding tube and tracheostomy and the judge will order the hospital to do it so the body of Jani can be "released." It would buy them even more time and they would get the procedures done. They could argue the hospital is not cooperating. I can't believe there is a surgeon at CH that would be willing to take the risk with this family though.

According to the news article posted up thread the courts have forbidden the hospital to insert the feeding tube and trach, and that ruling was upheld in another ruling today.

 

[jjenny]

In reality, this was most likely all stated to get a delay from the courts and it worked.

I wonder how many delays the attorney thinks he can get. They have to answer back to the courts on Friday, so I'm not sure what will happen at that point if they don't have something set in stone by then.

I agree. Hard to envision how they think they can transport her to a facility which is still under construction. Or that they seriously think she can be an outpatient. And they would have to fly her across the country to accomplish all that.

 

[CHERIE.T]

This child has not only been found brain dead by no less then 6 doctor but also by the CA court system. In her body is the possibility of saving no less then 5 people(children) from certain death. (possibly more!)

I understand the families hesitance, I understand them not wanting to admit. EVEN IF the hospital is at fault, Jani is not coming back, make her life mean something! Give her organs to people that can't live without them. I know that sounds harsh. I am sorry for that. But it IS the truth! The hospital can pay later. The other human lives can't wait that long! Give Jani's life meaning!!!! more then this dispute! JMO

:tyou:

 

[Steft50]

I wonder if they will force the issue of the feeding tube and tracheostomy and the judge will order the hospital to do it so the body of Jani can be "released." It would buy them even more time and they would get the procedures done. They could argue the hospital is not cooperating. I can't believe there is a surgeon at CH that would be willing to take the risk with this family though.

Here you go MsSeal...the article I mentioned

On Tuesday, Jahi family attorney Christopher Dolan filed a second brief with the appeals court, asking the judge to reverse earlier orders forbidding the hospital from giving Jahi a tracheotomy for breathing and inserting a gastric tube for feeding. However, a judge denied that request a short time later.

Hospital officials have refused to perform any medical procedure on Jahi since she was declared brain dead, saying it is unethical to do so. The hospital also will not allow an outside doctor to perform the procedures at Children's Hospital, according to spokesman Sam Singer.

"We want Children's Hospital to help us or get out of the way," Jahi's uncle, Omari Sealey, said.

Other facilities have said they will not accept her without the tracheotomy and the feeding tube.

So apparently the courts have forbidden the hospital to do these surgeries, and that was upheld in todays ruling.

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-...ove-brain-dead

 

[SophieRose]

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Jahi-McMath-s-family-says-hospital-blocking-5105627.php

The restraining order expires at 5 p.m. Tuesday. At 1 p.m. the same day, a federal judge is expected to hear arguments about possible violations of Jahi's civil rights, and the rights of families - not doctors, lawyers or politicians - to determine a loved one's death, based on their religious or personal beliefs.

 

[jjenny]

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Jahi-McMath-s-family-says-hospital-blocking-5105627.php

Sounds like that would open a whole can of worms. Somebody might decide their grandpa isn't dead, for instance, and keep the corpse at home if the decision on whether someone is dead is left up to the family and their religious beliefs.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I said last thread the religious angle was their best bet.


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[Leilei]

Hopefully thus will answer your question. One of our amazing verified medical people ( K_Z ) answered this a few days ago. Here is what they said.


"Patients who are on tube feeding exclusively for their nutrition chronically tend to have liquid or pasty bowel movements, if they are absorbing and have peristalsis. The high sugar content of the tube feed solution as sole nutrition causes all sorts of osmotic issues in normally functioning colons. Skin breakdown in the anal/ rectal area is a constant battle, along with fungal infections of the skin and skin folds. Can be very frustrating and difficult for the staff to manage.

The less mobility the patient has, and the greater their size, the greater the risk and incidence of skin breakdown, and ulceration. "

Thank you, SwampMama, and thank you K_Z.

My next question: is CHO legally required to feed her at this point? She has been declared deceased by six? doctors and a judge. From what I understand, the ventilator extension is so that the family can have more time to move her to a facility. I have tried to read the court documents but I can't load all of them for some reason, so any input would be appreciated.

 

[jjenny]

Thank you, SwampMama, and thank you K_Z.

My next question: is CHO legally required to feed her at this point? She has been declared deceased by six? doctors and a judge. From what I understand, the ventilator extension is so that the family can have more time to move her to a facility. I have tried to read the court documents but I can't load all of them for some reason, so any input would be appreciated.

She can't actually eat since she can't swallow.

 

[MsSeal]

She can't actually eat since she can't swallow.

As I understand a gastric tube goes directly into the abdominal wall.

But if the hospital will not do these procedures and they will not allow an outside doctor to come in and no one will take her without these two things being in place what is left for the family? To take with the vent still intubated and have the gastric tube inserted later.

 

[Leilei]

She can't actually eat since she can't swallow.

I know that she can't swallow, I'm addressing the feeding tube issue.

 

[Roxye]

Three years ago, my son's(Nikel) grandma that I have taken care of daily since before his birth had a series of mini strokes. We took her to the hospital. With her then dementia, they had a very hard time dealing with her. It was 11 days of hell for her and us. She fought them all the way... (even threaten to pull a gun she hasn't had in 20 years). They wanted us to put her on a feeding tube, because unless I or her daughter were there, she wouldn't eat. She would just hide her food around her bed. (Ugh)

Short and all, I brought her home, to us, no feeding tube, still diabetic, still in a wheel chair and still as much of hell raiser as she was then. They sent her home with 26 meds. She is now down to 4 prescribed and two OTC. She is sooo much better off now. Sometime hospitals don't know the best, as in my case, but sometimes they do. In this case, I think the hospital is trying to do the right thing.

 

[MLO]

Sounds like that would open a whole can of worms. Somebody might decide their grandpa isn't dead, for instance, and keep the corpse at home if the decision on whether someone is dead is left up to the family and their religious beliefs.

Someone could do ALL SORTS of things to dead bodies and insist the person isn't dead.

I'd be interested if it would change murder vs child abuse in some cases. Say I go into a fit of rage and strangle my child, seeing what I've done I'm devastated and take my child to the hospital. The child is brain dead but I don't consent to the child death and insist they are still alive. I can't be charged with murder, child abuse sure, but not murder because I brought the child into the world and the doctor needs my consent to declare the child dead.

There are already people who reject the death of their loved ones and don't report their death and live with the body sitting on the couch for years, but usually the body is removed from their possession immediately and they are given psychiatric care.

 

[Leilei]

I know that she can't swallow, I'm addressing the feeding tube issue.

Oh, good grief, JJenny, I sounded so rude in this reply, and I sincerely apologize.

This whole thing is really getting to me, and, like others here, I may need to step away until it concludes.

Again, I'm sorry!

 

[Linda7NJ]

"Moreover, surgeons have observed that brain-dead patients frequently react strongly to surgical incision at the time of organ procurement, with a rapidly increasing heart rate and a dramatic rise in blood pressure. Because of these signs of distress, donors are sometimes anesthetized during organ retrieval. Again, one must ask, what purpose would anesthesia serve for a corpse?"

http://catholiceducation.org/articles/medical_ethics/me0054.html

Very informative and very balanced. Worth the read.

I sniped the part above because it horrified me!

It's not representative of the entire article.


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[Linda7NJ]

The critique of the brain death diagnosis set forth in that paragraph is buttressed by the accounts of patients who have been diagnosed as brain dead, but who have later regained consciousness. Proponents of the brain death approach insist that such cases are so rare as to be practically irrelevant. David Blake says that the likelihood that a "brain-dead" patient could recover is "way beyond the pale" — going so far as to say that the likelihood of such cases is "equal to people rising from the dead." Christopher DeGiorgio agrees that any such case would be "extremely rare." However, a casual search of pro-life resources readily produces evidence of ten such cases, the most gruesome being one (described in the Journal of California Nurses for Ethical Standards) in which a "brain-dead" patient put his arm around the assisting nurse as he was about to have his heart removed for transplant.
Even granted that such cases are rare, and even assuming that most organ donors have been accurately diagnosed according to the legally criteria for brain death, a more fundamental question still remains. Are "brain-dead" patients indeed dead? Is it correct to equate irreversible coma with death?

From the link posted previously.

Fascinating...


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