Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #3

[kimlynn]

California voters and elected politicians created and enacted the laws. Laws over-rule choice.If one is that concerned over their rights and their choices, one best be up on what the laws are if their loved one succumbs to the risks of surgery.l It was a choice to have the surgery...

Yes indeed.It was a choice by mom to try and help her daughter be better than she was.
Sadly it didn't turn out well,but mom can't be blamed for that.IMO

 

[newmrsc]

Many Posters here don't believe she has the right to go to court, that her supporters don't have the right to peacefully assemble, that her religious beliefs should be ignored.

That's huge IMO


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The family certainly has the right to go to court, but I think the issue here may be that in many ways this is frivolous. And I don't mean that offensively, but from the legal standpoint that there's no longer a legal basis for challenging this. Once the court held that the brain death standards had been met and confirmed, the California law is clear on the issue that she meets the definition of a deceased person. That isn't in doubt in this case, as the physicians appointed by the court have declared her brain dead in accordance with the statute. And of course they also have the right to peaceful assembly, to speech, etc. But I would agree with what some have said about it becoming a media circus and it's going on too long. But of course we can't make them stop, merely express that we wish they would!

On the religious freedom aspect...I'm a lawyer but not verified on here, so PLEASE fact-check me. It's also been a long while since constitutional law, so I could easily be in error. But basically, freedom of religion is not a blanket freedom to do whatever is in your religious beliefs. There are many beliefs that for various reasons, we would not want to condone. So it's not an unlimited right. And the California statute on death (and those in every state) are neutral laws of general applicability. They aren't targeted at any religious practice or any particular religion, and they apply to everyone, not simply those of a certain religion. So there's a rational basis test applied. Basically it will hold up to scrutiny so long as there is a rational basis for the statute. There clearly is here, I believe - organ donation, for example. Yes, the family believes their religious beliefs are being ignored, but for one thing, not all Christians would hold to these beliefs, and these tests are setup so that we can't all claim exemptions from law based on our religious practice.

Info from wikipedia on free exercise: Free Exercise Clause - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[scmom]

Since Jahi's family has an attorney and have been to court I would guess that steps have been taken to make sure their rights are protected. As for free speech, judging by the comments made to the press by different family members and their attorney I would think that has not been stifled. I don't think there has been any attempt to stop people from peacefully assembling to protest either. Jahi's case has been highly visible to the world and everyone has their own opinion, and their right to it, on what they think the family should do.

 

[Zuri]

IMO, the hospital accommodated too much and that was the flaw. It seems that CHO policy and procedure dictates a certain amount of time, what 2-3 days? The family was given a week. When I think of the time, resources, personnel being diverted to accommodate this family, when other families in similar situations are probably taking a back seat.

I felt so badly for this mother and losing her daughter so unexpectedly. The video clips of her speaking to the media are heartbreaking as she obviously is distraught and having a hard time coming to terms with all this.

However, counselling will help her with the guilt she feels hopefully. Many of us here have had to accept death of a loved one on terms other than are own. Her actions now almost appear selfish.

Most hospitals have libraries with access to web md. Maybe, instead of press conferences, they might could do due diligence and get a better understanding of Jahi's condition and what to expect. JMO, IMO, JMV

 

[Isabelle]

Seems to me there is no consensus as to when life begins or ends....

That being the case, I would hope those that love you get a say


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It is very important to have in writing what you do and do not want done medically in the event of a illness or injury that makes these decisions necessary. Personally I am a DNR (do not resuscitate) for any reason whatsoever. My family will not have to bear that responsibility.

 

[newmrsc]

And those are all very good laws,but do you really want a law or a stranger making end of life choices for you over your loved ones?
It just seems unfair to me and I don't even agree with keeping Jahi going in her current state.
IMO

I understand what you're saying, and on some levels agree, but I think it creates a complicated situation. I don't think family members are necessarily the best ones for making these choices. I hate to make arguments about money and resources in this kind of situation, but we have to look at it realistically. Some people could never be ready to make an end of life choice to remove a ventilator, especially when it's your child. I don't know if I could do that, personally, but at the same time, these procedures, the doctors, the equipment...it's all so incredibly expensive. Who pays these bills? And what about the need for that space and equipment and medical care for other people? There has to be a stopping point, which is why we need these kinds of laws. The family is generally given time to make peace with it and then the ventilator/other equipment is removed. Then the family can begin grieving. There's an instinctive knee-jerk reaction on my part to say that shouldn't be left up to the other people, but when I think about going through this myself, I feel like it would be better to have an objective rule for saying when it's time to stop. My opinion, of course!

 

[momrids6]

And those are all very good laws,but do you really want a law or a stranger making end of life choices for you over your loved ones?
It just seems unfair to me and I don't even agree with keeping Jahi going in her current state.
IMO

Then one needs to vote against or work to change such laws they do not agree with.

I don't have to worry about someone else "making" choices; we all have living wills- including my children.

 

[kimlynn]

At some point the law steps in and tells you what must happen.

Usually, there has been a tactful dialogue between physicians and the family about the medical facts. It doesn't usually take 6 physicians to make a family understand that there is no hope for recovery.

But at some point the body deteriorates and cannot be maintained. Normally, a family recognizes the decline and can see for themselves the absolute lack of function.

No matter how you look at it, it is a very sad situation.I imagine in large part it is due to anger and frustration as well as grief on the part of the family and may take them longer to really grasp the situation with Jahi.
I'm hoping in time they will see that little can be done for Jahi.
IMO

 

[kimlynn]

Then one needs to vote against or work to change such laws they do not agree with.

I don't have to worry about someone else "making" choices; we all have living wills- including my children.

I agree.

 

[momrids6]

Yes indeed.It was a choice by mom to try and help her daughter be better than she was.
Sadly it didn't turn out well,but mom can't be blamed for that.IMO

It was her belief that her child would be better. It was ultimately her choice to subject the child to surgery, over the teen's protestations and concerns. As it has been explained on the thread and on the net, there were other options.

 

[kimlynn]

I understand what you're saying, and on some levels agree, but I think it creates a complicated situation. I don't think family members are necessarily the best ones for making these choices. I hate to make arguments about money and resources in this kind of situation, but we have to look at it realistically. Some people could never be ready to make an end of life choice to remove a ventilator, especially when it's your child. I don't know if I could do that, personally, but at the same time, these procedures, the doctors, the equipment...it's all so incredibly expensive. Who pays these bills? And what about the need for that space and equipment and medical care for other people? There has to be a stopping point, which is why we need these kinds of laws. The family is generally given time to make peace with it and then the ventilator/other equipment is removed. Then the family can begin grieving. There's an instinctive knee-jerk reaction on my part to say that shouldn't be left up to the other people, but when I think about going through this myself, I feel like it would be better to have an objective rule for saying when it's time to stop. My opinion, of course!

I also thought about family being able to be objective when I wrote my post.
I really think in large part this has been caused by the way Jahi ended up in this condition that plays into why the family is having such a difficult time with letting her go.
I'm sure they didn't expect to have her surgery turn out like this.It must be very difficult for them. IMO

At any rate it is past my bedtime so thanks for the discussion and I'll check back in tomorrow.

 

[J1981]

Re: taking Jahi home.

Pretend there are two options - 1) fight the hospital in court (when they are apparently already treating the family poorly per the family AND the family has no trust in CHO) or 2) take her home. (I realize there's a #3 of remove the vent but I'm leaving that out of this one).

Given these two options, I'd take my child home.

On the precious page up thread the question about taking her home was posed and one comment was made that it's about money. If the family takes her home, a lawsuit against CHO may not be as effective. BUT aren't her chances at life better at home where there isn't a deadline to pull the plug? (I KNOW she's legally brain dead- I'm talking as if I'm her mom). Why wouldn't her mom want to take her home and keep her on a vent there? Can you do that?

I'm just saying that option 1 may mean more money in a lawsuit but seemingly LESS of a chance at being on the vent and "living" longer.

Option 2 may mean less money in a lawsuit but MORE of a chance at her "recovering" (again, playing Jahi's mom here).

So why are they choosing option 1? Is it HONESTLY about money? I know money talks but I was really hoping the first priority was wanting to "keep her alive" not make the most money. Thoughts?

All IMO, speculative, and just partly playing devils advocate.

 

[Herat]

I imagine in large part it is due to anger and frustration as well as grief on the part of the family
IMO

There may also be a huge element of guilty feelings: for subjecting her to the procedure, for potentially have triggered the bleeding or ignored or violated the instructions given to them.

We've read snippets that allege the family did not follow the instructions. I do not have facts on that, but it will certainly be a question for the court case.

For whatever reason, the family has had enough time to get over the shock, to discuss her status with physicians, to research the options, to plead for stays in court. What happens now is only legal manouevering and is avoiding accepting her death. I

 

[vlpate]

From the prior thread: "I know people who have kept their brain-damaged child in their home with 24-hour-nursing care so it really isn't as impossible as the hospital is insisting."

Having home care for a relative is not the same as a business accepting patients for care for reimbursement.

There are standards that have to be met to be licensed. Healthcare businesses that accept patients for care must meet CMS (Medicare) regulations, which are usually inspected by state health facilities licensing boards.

You cannot equate home care with a 24/7 licensed facility.

I will be happy to research the license for the New York facility if you can provide a name.
<modsnip>

Great information, thanks! Pretty standard on the home health care..not a lot required besides fogging a mirror. Healthcare facilities are a completely different set of criteria, as you stated.

I can't even fathom having Jahi in someone's home...just being kept alive for reasons we aren't sure of...

 

[Herat]

Re: taking Jahi home.

Pretend there are two options - 1) fight the hospital in court (when they are apparently already treating the family poorly per the family AND the family has no trust in CHO) or 2) take her home. (I realize there's a #3 of remove the vent but I'm leaving that out of this one).

Given these two options, I'd take my child home.

On the precious page up thread the question about taking her home was posed and one comment was made that it's about money. If the family takes her home, a lawsuit against CHO may not be as effective. BUT aren't her chances at life better at home where there isn't a deadline to pull the plug? (I KNOW she's legally brain dead- I'm talking as if I'm her mom). Why wouldn't her mom want to take her home and keep her on a vent there? Can you do that?

I'm just saying that option 1 may mean more money in a lawsuit but seemingly LESS of a chance at being on the vent and "living" longer.

Option 2 may mean less money in a lawsuit but MORE of a chance at her "recovering" (again, playing Jahi's mom here).

So why are they choosing option 1? Is it HONESTLY about money? I know money talks but I was really hoping the first priority was wanting to "keep her alive" not make the most money. Thoughts?

All IMO, speculative, and just partly playing devils advocate.

Well, keeping her "alive" is the way to establish the wrongful death lawsuit. It will sure be a lot more work to have her at home and they would have to directly confront the deterioration that will follow, as she won't have anywhere near the continuous nursing care and attention to skin care, bowel and urine hygiene, ventilator care. It's a helluva lot of work and it will be a great deal of physical work, as she literally is dead weight. Complicated and messy. You'll be too tired for media blitzes. And the media will gradually fade away.

Who will pay for the equipment? The insurance company will not be renting a ventilator and hospital bed for them. They won't be able to get equipment the quality of what the CHO ICU has.

I don't think they really want to take her home.

 

[jjenny]

There was a case where a family took their brain dead child home. His heart stopped a month later. So it's not impossible to take a brain dead person home and care for them there.
But in his recent letter lawyer is talking about opportunities and treatments so I presume home is out.

 

[shana]

There was a case where a family took their brain dead child home. His heart stopped a month later. So it's not impossible to take a brain dead person home and care for them there.
But in his recent letter lawyer is talking about opportunities and treatments so I presume home is out.

Presumably OUT all along, and never even entertained as a possibility, afaik.

~jmo~

 

[vlpate]

The right to choice is being denied and just curious as to how keeping Jahi on a vent is causing harm to anyone.

IMO

How is it serving to help anyone? It's not ever gong to make any difference to Jahi..

 

[vlpate]

Well, keeping her "alive" is the way to establish the wrongful death lawsuit. It will sure be a lot more work to have her at home and they would have to directly confront the deterioration that will follow, as she won't have anywhere near the continuous nursing care and attention to skin care, bowel and urine hygiene, ventilator care. It's a helluva lot of work and it will be a great deal of physical work, as she literally is dead weight. Complicated and messy. You'll be too tired for media blitzes. And the media will gradually fade away.

Who will pay for the equipment? The insurance company will not be renting a ventilator and hospital bed for them. They won't be able to get equipment the quality of what the CHO ICU has.

I don't think they really want to take her home.

A mother would do all these things...any mother would...for a live child...one that might wake up one day....but it's hard to imagine the expense and the heartbreak in knowing, deep down, she's not coming back.

If a person cares enough to go through this for their child...knowing the people who last cared for her killed her, it has to be hard to face the prospect of leaving her with strangers in a facility.

 

[Disguiseduser0308]

Presumably OUT all along, and never even entertained as a possibility, afaik.

~jmo~

I've read anything and everything I can about sweet Jahi and have not seen a request from her family to bring her home. At first they just wanted to have her through the holidays. As a mother I completely understood this and thought it good the hospital was allowing Jahi to stay with her family during that time. Now I'm left to wonder; was it too much? I just don't know.

The family cannot accept that Jahi is no longer with us. IMO they don't want to bring her home to die; they want to send her somewhere she can heal. It saddens me to say I don't believe she will ever get better.

So long as Jahi's family cannot accept her death, they'll hold unto hope that she can heal. I say prayers every night for everyone from Jahi's family to CHO. I wouldn't want to be in any of their shoes.