Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #3

[newmrsc]

I understand but without a death certificate is she legally deceased? I know this is splitting hairs.Wonder if the coroner has been asked or offered to issue a death certificate and what requirements are necessary to issue one.

I've been trying to find specific information about this but not having tons of luck! I can't even find info stating whether or not it has been signed here but I'm guessing not. I do believe when it's signed, the date/time of death will be when she was pronounced brain dead. But I do believe she would still be legally dead. The records haven't been issued, but all the requirements have been met and accepted by the courts. In some cases, it could take days/weeks to get a death certificate, and I don't think we could say a person wasn't legally dead until then. All speculation, basically, but it just wouldn't make sense? If someone's heart stopped beating and there was an investigation or some other reason a death certificate wasn't immediately signed, the applicable laws like abuse of a corpse or something like that would have to apply.

 

[MyBelle]

If she was bleeding profusely, it seems the daughter would have seen the blood when she lowered her head to write the note...the natural instinct is to wipe with hand if it's "running".. she'd have seen it on her hand. This sounds like the mother dealing, rather than accurately relaying the events.

When the large amts of blood and clots started coming, Jahi had to be horrified...blood scares children period...imagine her mother's horror to see her daughter's fear.

She has to be tortured, and I'm sure she's not the first mother to experience such horror...I hope she is seeing someone that might help her make the right decision for the right reasons.

I'm surprised you question, "if she was bleeding profusely..." The fact has been established, she was bleeding profusely. Would the torment inflicted upon the mother be considered torment? Absolutely, imo.

 

[Karmady]

The subject of the investigation is the Hospital. According to the Dept of Health:

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/loca...Investigating-Jahi-McMath-Case-238319021.html

I get that you think that's significant and somehow related to what you perceive as a violation of standards. I don't and I'm very confident. We can agree to disagree on that. jmo

 

[momrids6]

I'm surprised you question, "if she was bleeding profusely..." The fact has been established, she was bleeding profusely. Would the torment inflicted upon the mother be considered torment? Absolutely, imo.

not fact- opinion/story... no medical records state mom in the room when she bled profusely or otherwise

link?

 

[Karmady]

As far as I can tell, only you are insisting it is an "unqualified place."

If that's the perception, I'll add my opinion that it's a beyond an unqualified place. For starters, it's to help TBI patients -- which Jahi is not. And the fact that it's run by someone with a cosmetology license doesn't inspire confidence. Seriously. It's like a terrible, terrible, dark joke.

jmo

 

[K_Z]

Bringing over my post from thread 2.

The facility in Medford, NY is not just "un-qualified", it is "non-qualified."

No one can "denigrate the care they provide" because they do not provide ANY care.

The "facility" is a Community Center. It is a bricks and mortar building for people to come to, to receive care from therapists leasing space in the building. That makes it more of a real estate/ non profit venture, than any kind of "health care facility." New Beginnings rents space to therapists. New Beginnings is not ANY kind of care provider.

My feeling is that their Brendan House was not ever intended to be a "health care facility" in and of itself, but more of a "group home" (description on their website as well), where residents would arrange their OWN providers to come in and provide care. In my state, group homes have to be licensed, but I have no idea what NY's rules on this are. I cannot see that particular building being certified as anything except for residential occupancy. It would never meet any kind of regulations for a health care facility. But it is a good idea, to provide rental housing space to needy individuals who can benefit from proximity to therapists, etc. It just "isn't" any kind of health care facilty. Inpatient, outpatient, or otherwise. And to think they could "house" Jahi's body in their community center, and the regulatory agencies will be ok with this...no way. Not as long as it is under the banner of the nonprofit.

Regarding the New Beginnings Community Center, Inc. in Medford, NY.

http://www.nbli.org

What it is:

A nonprofit started by a layperson as a gathering place to recruit multimodal OUTPATIENT therapies and services for patients with Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI). As I understand their goals, they wish to attract and recruit many different services and therapists who can help in a holistic lifestyle rehabilitation of people with TBI. This is a very noble goal, and a very worthwhile pursuit. They provide a physical bricks and mortar facility for therapists to rent space. They have a goal to provide a group living home for about 12 people, but they are a very long way from opening that building. I can't tell if they actually own any real property, or if they are leasing, or what-- maybe others can use different search methods.

http://riverheadnewsreview.timesrevi...VjREltoQ.email

This is an article from Nov 2013:

http://riverhead.patch.com/groups/go...n-sound-avenue


Here is their Charity Navigator information:

http://www.charitynavigator.org/inde...5#.UsMFlXkTuX0

They have around $342K in assets/ income for 2012, with Form 990 reporting of around $277K.

Here is their Guidestar info-- they have been incorporated as a NP for the tax years 2009-11. Their total income in 2011 (most recent tax year) was roughly $200K, with expenses of $189K.

http://www.guidestar.org/organizatio...ty-center.aspx

What New Beginnings Community Center, Inc. is NOT:

-It is not any kind of licensed health care facility.
-It is not a hospital of any kind, acute or long term
-It is not a nursing home
-It is not an inpatient facility
-I cannot find any licenses of any kind online for any kind of residential services
-They do not appear to provide or coordinate any kind of home care with home care agencies
-They have no physicians or licensed health care professionals employed or providing care as "New Beginnings CCC".

It's very obvious to me why CHO described this organization's plan to accept Jahi's body as "faulty". It's a fledgling nonprofit with very noble goals, and will hopefully do a lot of good for a lot of people. But it is not any kind of care facility, licensed or otherwise. It's a nonprofit. It would be like attempting to transfer Jahi's body to the American Red Cross or the March of Dimes. ARC and MOD are not care facilities, though they work in the INTERESTS of health care. (I hope that makes sense.)

Source is my post from Thread 2, #666 (interesting number, lol!)

 

[Steft50]

As far as I can tell, only you are insisting it is an "unqualified place."

I don't feel that is accurate. There have been plenty of posts concerning the conditions of both the future inpatient facility (in which pictures have even been posted) that isn't completed yet and the legality of using what is currently office space in the community center (the outpatient facility). I certainly would like to see some certification that they have the facility and ability to do what they are saying they plan to do.

 

[fruity]

I don't need to "brush up" on anything. Jahi's organs will not be sold to the highest bidder. Anyone who wishes to believe Children's hospital actually cares about Jahi is still free to do so....but I doubt anyone believes the hospital.

What on earth are you talking about? You made a statement saying that it was a "matter of minutes" between Jahi eating a Popsicle and being brain dead, which is factually incorrect. My post addressed your error and had NOTHING to do with your obsession about the illegal buying of organs.

 

[krimekat]

I don't need to "brush up" on anything. Jahi's organs will not be sold to the highest bidder. Anyone who wishes to believe Children's hospital actually cares about Jahi is still free to do so....but I doubt anyone believes the hospital.

no, her "organs will not be sold to the highest bidder" - time has wasted them (her organs) away

CHO is an incredible facility still making miracles happen today! Think of the other kids & their families searching for that miracle

I can't believe CHO is so graceful to allow a dead body to take up space in their facility & cater to the family's needs! Really?

what about all the other kids?

 

[Isabelle]

Bringing over my post from thread 2.

The facility in Medford, NY is not just "un-qualified", it is "non-qualified."

No one can "denigrate the care they provide" because they do not provide ANY care.

The "facility" is a Community Center. It is a bricks and mortar building for people to come to, to receive care from therapists leasing space in the building. That makes it more of a real estate/ non profit venture, than any kind of "health care facility." New Beginnings rents space to therapists. New Beginnings is not ANY kind of care provider.

My feeling is that their Brendan House was not ever intended to be a "health care facility" in and of itself, but more of a "group home" (description on their website as well), where residents would arrange their OWN providers to come in and provide care. In my state, group homes have to be licensed, but I have no idea what NY's rules on this are. I cannot see that particular building being certified as anything except for residential occupancy. It would never meet any kind of regulations for a health care facility. But it is a good idea, to provide rental housing space to needy individuals who can benefit from proximity to therapists, etc. It just "isn't" any kind of health care facilty. Inpatient, outpatient, or otherwise. And to think they could "house" Jahi's body in their community center, and the regulatory agencies will be ok with this...no way. Not as long as it is under the banner of the nonprofit.



Source is my post from Thread 2, #666 (interesting number, lol!)

Kz do u think a death certificate has been issued already? Interested in your input on this as you are an anesthetist. Thanks

 

[krimekat]

Kz do u think a death certificate has been issued already? Interested in your input on this as you are an anesthetist. Thanks

I'm not qualified but the death certificate has been issued in CA already

IMHO based on this

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/misc/hb_me.pdf

fetal or not, Jahi flies with the Angels

 

[Steft50]

I'm not qualified but the death certificate has been issued in CA already

IMHO based on this

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/misc/hb_me.pdf

fetal or not, Jahi flies with the Angels

I'm not qualified either but if I had to take a wild guess it would be that the death has been reported and recorded but a certificate won't be issued until the coroner can determine cause of death (what caused the excessive bleeding that caused the lungs to fill with blood and the heart to stop). I remember with my mom it took about 10 days to get because she died unattended at home even though she was in last stages of copd.

 

[momrids6]

Very interesting read:

http://sprocket-trials.blogspot.com/2014/01/jahis-legacy.html

 

[wendiesan]

The reason I've brought it up and discussed it is because "brain death" IMO was adopted to make organ transplantation successful and much more common. There is no doubt the topics are related and interconnected, even if it has nothing to do with this specific child. Hard to discuss one without the other.

According to who? Link please.

 

[K_Z]

Kz do u think a death certificate has been issued already? Interested in your input on this as you are an anesthetist. Thanks

In this particular case, I have no clue!

Originally, I supposed that a death certificate would NOT have been issued until removal of the ventilator, and the ME/ Coroner taking custody of her body.

But with all the issues in this case, I have no idea. I am confident that her medical records amply reflect that she has been examined and found to be brain dead "multiple" times, by multiple providers (around 6, IIRC).

I agree with joypath and others that the judge really defined "independent" in a way that is puzzling, and I can only wonder if something was revealed in chambers that caused him to redefine "independent". I don't think the court was questioning the findings of the 3 docs, just the definition as to whether the original #2 doc was "sufficiently" independent. That is vastly different from insinuating that the hospital recklessly did something non-standard or incompetent, or illegal, or even malicious, in the brain death determination, as has been alleged here in a few posts.

I'm wondering if one of the "independent" docs was found to have contact with Jahi, for example, while on call, and wrote orders on her before she was considered for brain death, and this was determined in chambers discussions. The judge was extra conservative, and I don't have a problem with that. Dr. Fisher's evaluation was pretty definitive, and his CV is impeccable, and there is no question he is independent. Just my speculation about why the judge would sort of redefine "independent".

But it is definitely not "standard of care" to bring in docs from outside the hospital to examine for brain death, just to be considered independent. In my experience, "independent" is defined in policy to mean that they were not substantially involved with the patient's care, as an attending. I've never heard anything that the "independent" doc could not have "any" contact with the patient. Independent also means they conduct their OWN examination, and not just review the notes of another. That does not mean that a whole new PET/ CT scan has to be done-- they can review the films themselves, just not rely on someone else's interpretation.

 

[fruity]

Very interesting read:

http://sprocket-trials.blogspot.com/2014/01/jahis-legacy.html

Oh wow, there are some VERY interesting tidbits in there. Well written too. Thanks for posting.

 

[wendiesan]

Odd to the the hospital needed parental consent to do the surgery yet can strip a mother of her parental rights without even a trial.



It's crazy.

Reminds me of....

"Mr. Bumble had little use for judicial reasoning. In Dickens' Oliver Twist, he put it rather bluntly: "'If the law supposes that', said Mr. Bumble, 'the law is a — a idiot.'"


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

Which rights have been stripped from Mrs. Winkfield? Link please.

 

[shana]

Let me try this again (had to delete my last post, hoping this one is better)...

I have some CA Death Certificates here, one of which is recent, so I'm relatively familiar with the form.

It has small Y or N checkboxes for such things as whether the death was reported to the Coroner, whether a Biopsy or Autopsy was done.

In my dear friend's case, the Cause of Death is simply stated as CardioRespiratory Arrest (MINS), followed by a condition or underlying cause of End Stage Congestive Heart Failure (MONTHS).

IOW and IMO, the Coroner's Autopsy report will say a lot more than will the certificate; therefore, I suspect the certificate has already been completed for Jahi, noting the time of her death by the then-attending physician who was authorized to declare it and signed it.

Due to the circumstances in this case, the Certificate is likely not yet recorded with the County Registrar.

~jmo~ Happy New Year to All!

ETA: The Certificate is simply stated (but more than I wanted to read some years ago re my parents' on the MINS part)...anyway, it doesn't go into great detail beyond.

 

[popsicle]

The judge said... section 7181 requires confirmation by an independant physician but does not define or otherwise set a standard for determining independence, the court determined that, on the unique facts of this case, the independent second opinion should come from a physician who had no affiliation with CHO.

http://thaddeuspope.com/images/McMath_EXHIBITS_2_of_2.pdf page 109 (on the tope of the page listed as page 62 of 77)

 

[momrids6]

The judge said... section 7181 requires confirmation by an independant physician but does not define or otherwise set a standard for determining independence, the court determined that, on the unique facts of this case, the independent second opinion should come from a physician who had no affiliation with CHO.

http://thaddeuspope.com/images/McMath_EXHIBITS_2_of_2.pdf page 109 (on the tope of the page listed as page 62 of 77)

Judge is an elected official- nuff said.

http://judgepedia.org/Evelio_M._Grillo