Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #4

[Donjeta]

Not really, apparently she was brain dead on the 11th. Either turn it off then or allow the family past the holidays. I have no issue with them advising the family she is dead then but when they asked to hold off extubating her and turning off life support, for some reason they decided to wait until holiday time when kids are coming home from college, when the shopping goes on and many early christian dates occur.

It is saying to a family who doesn't believe she is dead, so sad, to bad, we are going to cut her off on christmas even and she SURE will be dead then right? all bright eyed and innocent but telling a horrible thing to a grieving mom

Unfortunately, there are children dying and mothers hearing horrible news on all days of the year, including all religious holidays of all religions.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

Not really, apparently she was brain dead on the 11th. Either turn it off then or allow the family past the holidays. I have no issue with them advising the family she is dead then but when they asked to hold off extubating her and turning off life support, for some reason they decided to wait until holiday time when kids are coming home from college, when the shopping goes on and many early christian dates occur.

It is saying to a family who doesn't believe she is dead, so sad, to bad, we are going to cut her off on christmas even and she SURE will be dead then right? all bright eyed and innocent but telling a horrible thing to a grieving mom

I do believe the hospital should not have given the lengthy extension they did. They were trying to be empathetic towards the mother and they felt a in a few more days, reality would set it, like it does with most people. The hospital may never do this for other familys again, after this whole situation.

I prefer to look at it as though the hospital was sympathetic towards the family and the were gracious enough to allow Jahi to stay in ICU, with her family a few more days than normal, than they were awful for wanting to finally turn off the ventilator because it was near the holidays.

 

[jjenny]

Unfortunately, there are children dying and mothers hearing horrible news on all days of the year, including all religious holidays of all religions.

ITA. Nobody is saying the child should have died. But she just did.
Nothing is risk free. Even minor surgery (which this was not) has risks.

 

[jjenny]

I do believe the hospital should not have given the lengthy extension they did. They were trying to be empathetic towards the mother and they felt a in a few more days, reality would set it, like it does with most people. The hospital may never do this for other familys again, after this whole situation.

I prefer to look at it as though the hospital was sympathetic towards the family and the were gracious enough to allow Jahi to stay in ICU, with her family a few more days than normal, than they were awful for wanting to finally turn off the ventilator because it was near the holidays.

I don't have a problem with giving lenghy extension. I don't have a problem with mother going to court to get another opinion. There have been some cases where misdagnosis was made.
But by now it surely it is clear the child is diagnosed correctly. Yet this still goes on.

 

[SilkySifaka]

Can you imagine the position that puts the nursing staff in? Are they just supposed to pretend the child is sleeping and not mention anything about the medical diagnosis that has been rendered? That puts the nursing staff in a completely unethical position. The nursing administrative structure is not going to allow that.

CHO deals with neonatal and pediatric deaths of all kinds all the time. It's a fact of being a major tertiary referral center for a population of 10 million people. They have lots of staff on hand to assist with breaking bad news, to find counseling, to follow religious practices, etc. I have no doubt CHO is better prepared for the ethical, religious, and communication challenges of brain death than any other hospital in their region.

Well it doesn't seem they used all their resources this time. they turned to the courts. Not all things need to be fought, rather harder work with the family was the necessity. Allow Jahi to go to a funeral home with tubes in place. Allow her family to see that they were listened to. allow something the family can countenance.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

True that. However it is emotionally worse at christmas. I have loved ones dealing with deaths at christmas and it destroys forever any holidays to come. Holidays become a time of grief and sorrow for the whole family, not a time of christmas magic and santa coming down the chimney to help the other kids and parents. You would want to look past to see what can they do to make it as easy as possible for the family in the future years too.

It just seems cho doesn't care really. They just want to litigate and make things difficult fior a child who imo shouldn't have died at all

Birthdays and holidays are difficult for me as well, because of this. I do not, nor did I have the power to control when my loved ones passed away or when they were taken to be buried. I nor anyone else could ask the hospital to please keep my loved ones in the bed until after the holidays. It's reality for many and reality that has to be accepted and dealt with.

Jahi, passed on the 12th and it is written in her medical records and on her death certificate.

 

[Donjeta]

True that. However it is emotionally worse at christmas. I have loved ones dealing with deaths at christmas and it destroys forever any holidays to come. Holidays become a time of grief and sorrow for the whole family, not a time of christmas magic and santa coming down the chimney to help the other kids and parents. You would want to look past to see what can they do to make it as easy as possible for the family in the future years too.

It just seems cho doesn't care really. They just want to litigate and make things difficult fior a child who imo shouldn't have died at all

Do you really think that the family would have been able to think of Christmas magic and Santa coming down the chimney while Jahi was in a bad shape in a hospital room, just because no one told them the truth yet?

They are not stupid, they see Jahi lying there and know that she is not OK and I think somewhere deep down they know she's not going to be.

Either way, the Christmas would have been a time of grief and sorrow. If Jahi was gone, they would have remembered it as their first Christmas with the devastating loss. If Jahi was still on life support and the hospital staff put off telling them the truth until after the New Year, they would have remembered it as their first Christmas with the devastating loss and the Christmas when everybody at the hospital lied to them for weeks on end.

 

[jjenny]

Well it doesn't seem they used all their resources this time. they turned to the courts. Not all things need to be fought, rather harder work with the family was the necessity. Allow Jahi to go to a funeral home with tubes in place. Allow her family to see that they were listened to. allow something the family can countenance.

The hospital didn't turn to courts. The family turned to courts. Hospital has to respond to all these law suits and court filings, no?

 

[Herat]

True that. However it is emotionally worse at christmas. I have loved ones dealing with deaths at christmas and it destroys forever any holidays to come. Holidays become a time of grief and sorrow for the whole family, not a time of christmas magic and santa coming down the chimney to help the other kids and parents. You would want to look past to see what can they do to make it as easy as possible for the family in the future years too.

It just seems cho doesn't care really. They just want to litigate and make things difficult fior a child who imo shouldn't have died at all

1. How are you going to change the fact that a relative dies at Christmas? There is an awful lot of misery that happens at the holidays and we all just have to learn to deal with it. One has to deal with reality to "look past
a Christmastime death.

2. You have no factual basis about what CHO "cares" about. They have been forced into litigating this NOW because of the family's attorney. Who has a tremendous financial interest in prolonging all these suits in court. CHO has described the tremendous accommodations they have made for the McMath family. None of us know the exact reasons why this happened. None of us has access to the medical records or eventual sworn court testimony. Anything else is supposition and conjecture.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

Everybody deals with grief in different ways. I have lost two brothers, and both parents. I cannot judge this family on the way they grieve. My heart is breaking for them. Maybe this is the only way they know how to grieve. I pay taxes, and don't mind at all if my taxes go toward paying for this baby's care. Of course this is just MOPO, and I respect (truly) those that don't look at it the same.

I respect your opinion Tulessa. :loveyou:

There are no procedures in place though to address this at the current time. IMO, the ICU at the hospital for weeks or months with all the family gathering indefinitely, is not acceptable.

Maybe the groups that are standing behind the mother, despite current laws that are in place, can help families such as Jahi's, with the finances, equipment and care that they would need at home to support her until her heart does give out.

 

[Herat]

when the shopping goes on

Did you really want to say that in the context of this discussion?

 

[Minette]

Not really, apparently she was brain dead on the 11th. Either turn it off then or allow the family past the holidays. I have no issue with them advising the family she is dead then but when they asked to hold off extubating her and turning off life support, for some reason they decided to wait until holiday time when kids are coming home from college, when the shopping goes on and many early christian dates occur.

It is saying to a family who doesn't believe she is dead, so sad, to bad, we are going to cut her off on christmas even and she SURE will be dead then right? all bright eyed and innocent but telling a horrible thing to a grieving mom

But the holidays are past. Whatever the hospital did, or should have done, or should not have done wrt to the holidays is now a moot point. Jahi has been officially brain dead since December 12. It is now January 4.

IMO, the issues of whether the hospital is culpable for Jahi's death and whether the ventilator should be turned off are separate. In the case of the first issue, until the coroner is able to perform an autopsy there are many questions that cannot be answered (and in fact, may NEVER be answerable now that it has been several weeks since whatever happened, happened.) In the case of the second issue, according to California law, hospital policy, generally accepted medical ethics, etc., it should have been done as soon as the family was allowed to gather at her bedside. The fact that the hospital *did* show the compassion to delay the inevitable as long as it did led directly to the media circus and the (to me) obscene and unnatural forced ventilation of Jahi's body while Dolan tries to establish that the brain dead are in fact, 'disabled.' In my eyes, the whole thing is shameful.

 

[Leilei]

True that. However it is emotionally worse at christmas. I have loved ones dealing with deaths at christmas and it destroys forever any holidays to come. Holidays become a time of grief and sorrow for the whole family, not a time of christmas magic and santa coming down the chimney to help the other kids and parents. You would want to look past to see what can they do to make it as easy as possible for the family in the future years too.

It just seems cho doesn't care really. They just want to litigate and make things difficult fior a child who imo shouldn't have died at all

My step-father died at home, from a heart attack, the day after Thanksgiving. Only my mom was there to try to help him, and she couldn't. My grandmother passed on Valentine's day. Those two holidays are tinged with sadness for our family, of course, but we also take those days to look back and remember them, to honor their memories.

Believe me, I wish that Death could have "taken a holiday", for my own family and for so many others, but it's not realistic, it's not the way life (or death) works. It's awful that Jahi died during the holidays, but, once her family moves forward with the grieving process, perhaps they can dedicate their holidays to her memory. I think that would be a wonderful way to remember her.

All my opinion.

 

[Zuri]

This morning I looked at the FB page and the go me fund page. Any disparaging remarks have been removed. There are alot of people who are of tremendous faith that are supporting Jahi's mother. They believe in miracles and have quoted passages from the Bible. I admire their faith even when it flies in the face of reality. I admired Jahi's mother's faith that she believed in miracles, although there is not one to be had here sadly.

However. There has only been one side of the story told here, and people of faith seem to be basing many of their comments and support on half truths. Marches in front of the hospital, encouraging phone calls to administrators, fear mongering, disparaging comments directed at physicians and an institution that does so much good for so many, does not seem to have a place in faith. Or miracles. Or reality. JMV, JMO, etc.

 

[Karmady]

I don't have a problem with giving lenghy extension. I don't have a problem with mother going to court to get another opinion. There have been some cases where misdagnosis was made.
But by now it surely it is clear the child is diagnosed correctly. Yet this still goes on.

Just to be clear, the only reason I think the extension was a mistake was because it's now being used against the hospital and likely, because of that, they will not be so accomodating in the future. No good deed...and all that. jmo

 

[Karmady]

This morning I looked at the FB page and the go me fund page. Any disparaging remarks have been removed. There are alot of people who are of tremendous faith that are supporting Jahi's mother. They believe in miracles and have quoted passages from the Bible. I admire their faith even when it flies in the face of reality. I admired Jahi's mother's faith that she believed in miracles, although there is not one to be had here sadly.

However. There has only been one side of the story told here, and people of faith seem to be basing many of their comments and support on half truths. Marches in front of the hospital, encouraging phone calls to administrators, fear mongering, disparaging comments directed at physicians and an institution that does so much good for so many, does not seem to have a place in faith. Or miracles. Or reality. JMV, JMO, etc.

Exactly, faith without grace is antithetical to me.

 

[Donjeta]

This morning I looked at the FB page and the go me fund page. Any disparaging remarks have been removed. There are alot of people who are of tremendous faith that are supporting Jahi's mother. They believe in miracles and have quoted passages from the Bible. I admire their faith even when it flies in the face of reality. I admired Jahi's mother's faith that she believed in miracles, although there is not one to be had here sadly.

However. There has only been one side of the story told here, and people of faith seem to be basing many of their comments and support on half truths. Marches in front of the hospital, encouraging phone calls to administrators, fear mongering, disparaging comments directed at physicians and an institution that does so much good for so many, does not seem to have a place in faith. Or miracles. Or reality. JMV, JMO, etc.

There is a strange reality, a twist of the logic, on some of these SM pages imo. Because Jahi did not deserve to die, it means that she is not brain dead. Because it is unfair that this happened to Jahi it means that she will recover. Because no child should bleed to death after an operation it means that Children's should keep her on a ventilator forever more. Because Jahi didn't do anything wrong it means that Children's should fix her.

Perhaps they would, in a perfect world, but resurrecting the dead is beyond the means of modern medicine, however wrong it is that they died.

 

[CHERIE.T]

Which is exactly why Mom should not be Jahi's GAL. imo

:seeya: :gthanks:

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Has anyone else thought about this? Once Jahi's mother takes custody of her daughter, there's no telling what type of "interventions" might be considered for the teen. Will her ongoing treatment be limited strictly to traditional medical means of caring for Jahi, or might other less conventional "healers" be brought in to observe and attempt to revive the youngster? I shudder to think about what might happen once Jahi is in the custody of her mother.

 

[Sincerely]

Exactly, faith without grace is antithetical to me.

I am a person of great faith and belief I also know that we haven't heard of a person rising up from the hospital bed after being confirmed brain dead...my God can work like that but doesn't. If I am wrong please correct me...I don't watch the news much and Lazarus happened a long time ago.