Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #4

[Leilei]

Yet Children's is the hospital that's kept her body going!

Her mom needs a good shoulder shaking and a good talking to by someone she trust......someone who can explain brain death and non-recovery in terms she will understand.

And, Children's is more than likely absorbing all of the cost of her treatment since 12/12, more than likely. I can't imagine any health insurance company paying for all of this past that date.

CHO hasn't made mention of that AT ALL, that I've seen. They haven't said "we need to get her out of here, because we need that bed for another (living) patient."

They've bent over backwards for this family, IMO.

 

[joypath]

Yeah. For example, if you are found dead lying on the sidewalk and have not had doctor's care recently, your nosy neighbors, your meddling mother in law, your mechanic, the local garbagemen, etc can all get a copy of your autopsy report........by law.

BBM: Fortuately or unfortunately, depending on which side of the fence one might be, NOT all States allow full freedom access.

http://www.ct.gov/ocme/cwp/view.asp?a=2166&Q=295104

"Records are not otherwise open to the general public. "


while CA differs: "Moreover, earlier courts, before the adoption of the CPRA, had held that autopsy reports are public records. See People v. Williams, 174 Cal. App. 2d 364, 390, 345 P.2d 47 (1959)("An autopsy report is a record that the coroner is required to keep (Gov. Code § 27491) and is therefore, a public record (citations omitted)."); Walker v. Superior Court, 155 Cal. App. 2d 134, 138-39, 317 P.2d 130 (1957); see generally Cal. Gov't Code § 27491 (setting forth duties of coroners); § 27491.6 (requiring inquests performed by coroner be open to the public). The Legislature was no doubt aware of these decisions when it enacted the CPRA, and could have expressly exempted coroners' reports from public disclosure, but did not do so."

http://www.rcfp.org/california-open...ord-categories-open-or-closed/autopsy-reports

 

[Isabelle]

And I've personally witnessed in nursing homes in Calif. nurses changing their notes and backdating them to cover their tracks for situations that shouldn't have happened and were their fault! I did report them to DHS!!!

That's what I love about computer documentation.

 

[Herat]

Why is it so hard for people to believe that there are bad doctors, nurses, and hospitals???

Medical care is by necessity very complex these days. A vast number of interactions and decisions are made. It is not plausible that these are all wrong or all right.

I don't agree with your characterization of CHO at all. This is a hugely respected tertiary care facility that has an intake area of two states and more than 10 million people.

Any medical procedure can have a negative outcome. It can be from a myriad of causes. It doesn't mean the people or facility involved are "bad doctors, nurses, and hospitals". You aren't ever going to find the perfect doctor, nurse, hospital. because they don't exist. As I assume you have not read the certified medical record, the autopsy report, or the sworn court testimony, I don't think any of us can make blanket comments about this case.

Something bad happened. We don't yet know why. That pretty much sums it up.

 

[Yoda]

IMO, this is about money for the mother and uncle, the lawyer and the more they tell their "sob story" to the media the more money they get.

They want people to hear their side of the story so they can say whatever the heck they want about this hospital and then hopefully turn around and sue them for millions.

This mother has an agenda. ( which is why IMO, she brought this to the media in the first place).

This should have been kept private between the family and the hospital but no.

jmo

In this raw interview with mom an,d I think, the uncle, he goes on about $$$$. It's quite disgusting. Poor mom. JMO

http://www.ktvu.com/videos/news/mcmath-vigil-raw-video-of-jahi-mcmaths-mothers/vCLZHH/

 

[LinasK]

1. Jahi is not alive. The lovely happy child that once was does not exist except in the hearts and memories of her friends and loved ones.

2. Anything that happens is only to maintain the physical shell until it deteriorates to the point the family accepts that she is dead.

3. The mother may have agreed to accept full responsibility, but we have yet to see that happen in fact. As she has not accepted responsibility prior to this in the last three weeks, it is a valid question as to whether she will actually fulfill the agreement she made under oath in court.

4. The minute the transport team attaches their own ventilator tubing in PICU, CHO "wins" the skirmish as the maintenance of her physical shell is not longer their responsibility.

1. Jahi is not a corpse- her heart still beats.
2. What's the harm in letting Jahi live out the rest of her natural life???
3. No answer.
4. I think Children's letting her go is a win for the family because then Children's can't pull the plug on her. Children's has already lost in bad PR and future malpractice/wrongful death lawsuits.:twocents:
These are my opinions, and I worked in the medical industry for 13 years in hospitals, nursing homes, and home health.

 

[LinasK]

Medical care is by necessity very complex these days. A vast number of interactions and decisions are made. It is not plausible that these are all wrong or all right.

I don't agree with your characterization of CHO at all. This is a hugely respected tertiary care facility that has an intake area of two states and more than 10 million people.

Any medical procedure can have a negative outcome. It can be from a myriad of causes. It doesn't mean the people or facility involved are "bad doctors, nurses, and hospitals". You aren't ever going to find the perfect doctor, nurse, hospital. because they don't exist. As I assume you have not read the certified medical record, the autopsy report, or the sworn court testimony, I don't think any of us can make blanket comments about this case.

Something bad happened. We don't yet know why. That pretty much sums it up.

Okay, I'm also local to Children's- Oakland is about 40. min. away from me, and I can tell you around the East Bay- Children's is NOT highly respected.

 

[iluvmua]

I think the way I feel may be contrary to popular opinion here. But, I think the parents need some time to process everything and be willing to pull the plug on Jahi. I think they will - or should be gently urged to do so by family/clergy/chaplain - after they absorb that fact that she is not going to recover. The hospital has made her death that much harder.

I also wish they would stop referring to Jahi as "the body". Even on machines, she is still Jahi. I think they're doing that to reiterate the fact that in their opinion she is 'dead' and to drive that point home to the media/family. But that is being very insensitive to her family, IMO.

As for lawsuits, I hope her parents get whatever they ask for. No one should die in that situation, in PICU surrounded by nurses/doctors. Yes, there are trivial lawsuits these days and everyone is wanting their chance at the million-dollar lawsuit (banana-peel man on the elevator comes to mind). But this a bonafide malpractice case. Hands down. Maybe her family is handling it differently than some of us would, but bottom line: I believe that the hospital is responsible for Jahi's death.

Just give her parents time to accept the inevitable and to realize that she is not going to wake up. I could be wrong, but that's what I think they want: just a chance to see if she may wake up and to absorb everything without also arguing with the hospital (which I think has delayed their grief process - they still haven't accepted it yet, I don't think).

1. We are only getting the mother's side of the story and pretty much everything she's said has either been a lie or greatly embellished.

2. How much time do they need, they have had almost a month to come to gripes that Jahi is dead.

3. Based on what evidence?

 

[Isabelle]

Tell it to DHS and JCAHO. I will be very curious to see what the results of their investigations are- but I've personally witnesses it happening, with the Director Of Nursing's consent/permission, so it is naive to think it doesn't happen!

Agree. So glad I am 99.9% retired. I am not, nor have I ever been a team player. I have always been a patient advocate, no matter what. So happy I can never again be told to use broken equipment "because it looks good". And that happened with a transfer from pacu to ICU.

 

[meme4]

Originally Posted by LinasK
Only by court order, or they would've disconnected her long ago by their choice!! Why can Jahi be allowed to live out the rest of her life, however long that is, elsewhere- even if Vents and G-tubes are required.

No one has offered to do the surgery required for tubes and trach and why would a deceased
person need them..if the mother iso so dead set on moving her daughter, then move her as no one is stopping them now....I personally (jmo) dont think she going anywhere, doesnt further their agenda if mom moves her.....

 

[CHERIE.T]

And, Children's is more than likely absorbing all of the cost of her treatment since 12/12, more than likely. I can't imagine any health insurance company paying for all of this past that date.

CHO hasn't made mention of that AT ALL, that I've seen. They haven't said "we need to get her out of here, because we need that bed for another (living) patient."

They've bent over backwards for this family, IMO.

Absolutely agree.

 

[popsicle]

Here's uncle's account. He says we kept asking so was he there too? How many family members were there?



http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/nation...ry--family-says-it-wants-to-keep-life-support

I find it very hard to believe that anyone said that blood loss worth four transfusions and 2 liters of aspirated blood is normal, and what does lack of urgency mean? Does it mean that things weren't getting done or that the nurses appeared too calm? It was a unique emergency for the family but the ICU nurses are dealing with life and death situations every day and can't let panic take over.

No, he was not there. Up thread someone posted his instagram link. I forget where he was but there was a comment saying Jahi was having surgery this morning. He commented back that he was saying a prayer for her and would see her when he got back. jmo

 

[LinasK]

That's what I love about computer documentation.

This was handwritten charting. I was not supposed to be aware of what was going on- except the medical records gal had a conscience, and clued me in!!

 

[otto]

I think the way I feel may be contrary to popular opinion here. But, I think the parents need some time to process everything and be willing to pull the plug on Jahi. I think they will - or should be gently urged to do so by family/clergy/chaplain - after they absorb that fact that she is not going to recover. The hospital has made her death that much harder.

I also wish they would stop referring to Jahi as "the body". Even on machines, she is still Jahi. I think they're doing that to reiterate the fact that in their opinion she is 'dead' and to drive that point home to the media/family. But that is being very insensitive to her family, IMO.

As for lawsuits, I hope her parents get whatever they ask for. No one should die in that situation, in PICU surrounded by nurses/doctors. Yes, there are trivial lawsuits these days and everyone is wanting their chance at the million-dollar lawsuit (banana-peel man on the elevator comes to mind). But this a bonafide malpractice case. Hands down. Maybe her family is handling it differently than some of us would, but bottom line: I believe that the hospital is responsible for Jahi's death.

Just give her parents time to accept the inevitable and to realize that she is not going to wake up. I could be wrong, but that's what I think they want: just a chance to see if she may wake up and to absorb everything without also arguing with the hospital (which I think has delayed their grief process - they still haven't accepted it yet, I don't think).

The lawyer has complained that the hospital refers to the patient as the deceased; that the hospital is not personalizing the patient by using her name. Next, he complains that the hospital is releasing information about the deceased. It seems like a bit of a no-win situation with the lawyer. If the hospital uses her name, the lawyer claims violation of privacy, if the hospital doesn't use her name, the lawyer claims that the facility is unfeeling.

This family has interfered with the hospital with protests. The family has an agenda and the intention is to force the hospital to do what they want regardless of whether it benefits anyone. How can the hospital ensure that the rights of all patients and staff are respected, and allow that to happen? Should the world stop and everyone become a second class citizen because the family of a deceased child refuses to do what is normal and bury her?

Children die in hospitals every day, even when the best medical teams are doing their best to keep the child alive. The surgeries that this child had have a risk of death due to bleeding. This child was not healthy, the surgeries were not routine, and the family has admitted to interfering with post-operative care. This case is the 1/15,000 children, of 530,000 tonsillectomy surgeries performed on children under the age of 15 in the US, that die each year. The family knew the risks prior to the surgery and they accepted those risks.

It's been a month. How much time should a family be given to understand that the deceased child stopped breathing a month ago and will never breath again?

 

[Herat]

Here's uncle's account. He says we kept asking so was he there too?

Didn't we establish by his Twitter photos that he was in Cabo the day this happened and not a witness at the bedside?

His comments are hearsay, and would not be considered an independent observation.

 

[joypath]

So you think CHO nurses/docs are going to change their notes to cover themselves.

I can you tell of one case where I was working in medical records and a doctor was being sued and he came into to review the chart. A staff member of medical records sat with him to make sure that he did not write anything. He was not allowed to have a pen or pencil and he was witnessed the entire time. He could only review the chart.

Now I don't know about the PICU nurses at CHO. The nurses could have changed notes that day but surely someone would have witnessed just as you did and report them. I guess we will never know. Call me niave I just don't think they would stoop to that.

In these days of EMR, things are different. Impossible to alter the chart, I'd NEVER say NEVER but there are significantly MORE checks & balances than "back in the day"..

OT, a smidge....A malpractice case on which I served (yeah, BOTH side lawyers thought with my background I'd be an asset!) was influenced GREATLY by the post-incident M.D. charting. The physician under scrutiny thought charting on the side of the page, differing pen color and elaborate differing details to the BB technologist & laboratory time-stamp testimony MIGHT absolve his delayed clinical response to the bleed-out.
Yeah, he lost the case...DUH and his license, briefly to perform cardiac caths but heck, the rest of the group practice went unscathed...

 

[Hope32]

Here's uncle's account. He says we kept asking so was he there too? How many family members were there?



http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/nation...ry--family-says-it-wants-to-keep-life-support

I find it very hard to believe that anyone said that blood loss worth four transfusions and 2 liters of aspirated blood is normal, and what does lack of urgency mean? Does it mean that things weren't getting done or that the nurses appeared too calm? [It was a unique emergency for the family but the ICU nurses are dealing with life and death situations every day and can't let panic take over.

I agree to the patient's and their family when a loved one is in distress/pain and the nurses/healthcare are doing their job they are probably never going to be going fast enough to help. The nurses/health professionals esp in the ICU/PICU have been in this situation before and are trained to keep a calm head and reassure the family but not lie. They often want things done 5 seconds ago when they doing the job in the orders they can.

About the Electronic medical records you can go back and add information/change but it is all logged and there are still lots of gaps in the documentation form itself. Each hospital system/facility has their own version of the documentation and there are some that don't have places for comments, they don't flow the way that makes logical sense,etc. EMR is still a pain in the from a Physical Therapy standpoint and a lot of places don't have the same. it appears to me that CHO may still have modified charts where some documentation is still required to be hand written and scanned into the medical chart and some may be electronic.

Just my opinion

 

[LinasK]

I think the way I feel may be contrary to popular opinion here. But, I think the parents need some time to process everything and be willing to pull the plug on Jahi. I think they will - or should be gently urged to do so by family/clergy/chaplain - after they absorb that fact that she is not going to recover. The hospital has made her death that much harder.

I also wish they would stop referring to Jahi as "the body". Even on machines, she is still Jahi. I think they're doing that to reiterate the fact that in their opinion she is 'dead' and to drive that point home to the media/family. But that is being very insensitive to her family, IMO.

As for lawsuits, I hope her parents get whatever they ask for. No one should die in that situation, in PICU surrounded by nurses/doctors. Yes, there are trivial lawsuits these days and everyone is wanting their chance at the million-dollar lawsuit (banana-peel man on the elevator comes to mind). But this a bonafide malpractice case. Hands down. Maybe her family is handling it differently than some of us would, but bottom line: I believe that the hospital is responsible for Jahi's death.

Just give her parents time to accept the inevitable and to realize that she is not going to wake up. I could be wrong, but that's what I think they want: just a chance to see if she may wake up and to absorb everything without also arguing with the hospital (which I think has delayed their grief process - they still haven't accepted it yet, I don't think).

emphasizing these points!

 

[Herat]

Okay, I'm also local to Children's- Oakland is about 40. min. away from me, and I can tell you around the East Bay- Children's is NOT highly respected.

Then I think you have a different opinion than most all healthcare providers in northern California and northern Nevada

 

[LinasK]

Then I think you have a different opinion than most all healthcare providers in northern California and northern Nevada

Most all? Really???