Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #4

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  • #1,101
Can someone explain the whole death certificate thing? What time do they list on it as time of death? How do they pronounce death, when she is still breathing (albeit, with the aid of a ventilator). Wouldn't that mean that anyone in a hospital, breathing with the aid of a ventilator is really dead? I'm sure absence of brain activity fits in there, somewhere, as well.


My understanding is that the her time of death on the death certificate is December 12th when she was pronounced brain dead by the second doctor. They do not need to wait for her heart to stop because she was pronounced dead by the brain death criteria which are just as valid as the cardiorespiratory death criteria, according to the California statutes.

People breathing with ventilators in hospitals, or at home for that matter, are not dead unless they have also experienced an irreversible cessation of all brain functions.

The Alameda County coroner’s office issued a death certificate Friday, listing Dec. 12 as Jahi’s date of death, according to the San Francisco Chronicle. Dolan said the family never received a copy of the death certificate and that the cause of death was pending.
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...lease-seen-as-victory-20140105,0,696646.story
 
  • #1,102
I don't know the answer to that. But since they let the mother take the body, presumably, if there is such a time constraint, they're not going to enforce it. I have been wondering about the details of this myself since I read the coroner saying they could release the body to the family to dispose of. It seems to me that failing to dispose of the body by an appropriate method withing a certain time frame would violate the law. But maybe, if it's in a facility and not presenting a health risk, they can do as they will. Disturbing precedent all around on this one, I'm afraid. jmo

You mentioned a health risk. Wouldn't things that are to be suctioned, wiped, collected, etc., be considered a bio-hazard in terms of how they dispose of it all? What are they going to do, just toss the stuff in the family garbage can to be picked up once a week?
 
  • #1,103
http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/06/health/jahi-mcmath-girl-brain-dead/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

(Snip) "The body of Jahi McMath was released by Children's Hospital & Research Center Oakland to the coroner," said David Durand, the hospital's chief of pediatrics. "The coroner has released her body to the custody of her mother, Latasha Winkfield, as per court order, for a destination unknown."

This just amazes me! Released to the coroner and the coroner releases to the family.

Well do you blame them (CHO)? Sheesh I would have wanted to do the same thing, get the body out of the hospital and let the family do whatever they want.

Now the family can battle with the insurance company or new facility or whomever over who pays for this (unless the donations keep coming in, and if they do fine, let people donate).

As far as why shouldn't families be allowed to keep their dead on machines for months if they want too....well I say fine, let them but NOT if insurance OR the government OR private hospitals are expected to pick up the tab. If the family themselves is paying for it they can spend their money however they like. If the REST of us are paying for it in higher insurance rates, taxes, and medical costs then that just simply isn't right. Bottom line is people DO DIE because they can't afford medication or insurance etc....and having those costs go even higher so others can keep their dead artificially alive just isn't fair.
 
  • #1,104
Well do you blame them (CHO)? Sheesh I would have wanted to do the same thing, get the body out of the hospital and let the family do whatever they want.

Now the family can battle with the insurance company or new facility or whomever over who pays for this (unless the donations keep coming in, and if they do fine, let people donate).

As far as why shouldn't families be allowed to keep their dead on machines for months if they want too....well I say fine, let them but NOT if insurance OR the government OR private hospitals are expected to pick up the tab. If the family themselves is paying for it they can spend their money however they like. If the REST of us are paying for it in higher insurance rates, taxes, and medical costs and that just simply isn't right. Bottom line is people DO DIE because they can't afford medication or insurance etc....and having those costs go even higher so others can keep their dead artificially alive just isn't fair.


I agree and have always felt it should have been over a long time ago. I don't blame the hospital at all. I know they are relieved and I know the staff is also relieved.

ETA: I also think that the facility that is receiving her should be investigated by the state for ethical violations. IMO, it is unethical for a facility to do this. What are we going to start doing? Keeping people that have been declared dead by artificial means until all of their body systems fail.
 
  • #1,105
I saw some misinformed tweets saying things like "Thank God that girl can finally eat now!" As if they were going to be driving her though Jack in the Box or something. This is so far out of control, I can't believe they are taking Jahi to that vacant house!

I've been wondering (truly) if they might take it upon themselves to put unconventional things in her feeding tube. Have you ever seen the movie "Lorenzo's Oil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia"? That case was different, but the couple dedicated their lives to finding a treatment for their son's ALD that was eventually fed to him in the feeding tube.

Will the family decide to "feed" her her favorite foods, such as ice cream, fast food, pot roast, or whatever? This case is so bizarre that the ludicrous actually IS possible.
 
  • #1,106
Where is her "dad" by the way? Has anyone heard anything from him? <modsnip>
While reading up on Jahi I came across this story: http://abcnews.go.com/Health/ohio-t...ted-brothers-trashed-kidney/story?id=20116839

Amazing story, a brother donates a kidney to his very ill sister and after the kidney is removed a nurse THROWS IT IN THE TRASH! Not only could that have cost the sister her life but the brother lost one of his kidneys and that is a brutal surgery for the doners. It is scary to think there are staff like that holding important positions in hospitals.

He is alive, he was photographed in at least one presser.
http://www.sfgate.com/health/articl...a-complicated-issue-5083320.php#photo-5613961
 
  • #1,107
FRUITY..here in oz we have three forms.

1. Enduring Power of Attorney (Medical)
2. Enduring Power of Attorney (Financial)

you can buy these at the newsagents

Then there is a Not for Resuscitation form but I don't know if you can buy that. I got mine when I was an RN working in a hospital.
 
  • #1,108
I've been wondering (truly) if they might take it upon themselves to put unconventional things in her feeding tube. Have you ever seen the movie "Lorenzo's Oil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia"? That case was different, but the couple dedicated their lives to finding a treatment for their son's ALD that was eventually fed to him in the feeding tube.

Will the family decide to "feed" her her favorite foods, such as ice cream, fast food, pot roast, or whatever? This case is so bizarre that the ludicrous actually IS possible.

They wouldn't be the first ones to do so.
http://www.oley.org/lifeline/TubetalkSO07.html
 
  • #1,109
"Sadly ... Mr. Dolan is not being truthful to the public or his clients," Singer said. "When he says his 'medical team' wants to feed her body so her brain will have the optimum nutrients, he is either being purposely deceptive or ignorant. In either case, he is perpetuating a sad and tragic hoax on the public and the McMath family. Tragically, this young woman is dead, and there is no food, no medical procedures and no amount of time that will bring back the deceased."

http://www.mercurynews.com/nation-world/ci_24850098/jahi-mcmath-attorney-tells-tv-station-child-will

I'd say its both!
 
  • #1,110
This will fuel fire to those that think hospitals kill people with brain damage but who are still alive for their organs.

I wonder how does organ donation work? I thought they had to ask permission of the next of kin?

They get around to the permission part eventually.

When I was a Patient Representative, I was in charge of getting permission from families for organ donation. Other than occasional eyes (mostly for research), the hospital had never before had any organ donations. My supervisor did not go over the process for other organs with me before I started, because she said they had never gotten another organ. That changed my very first day on the job (I worked weekends, so my supervisor was an hour away at home).

The night before my shift started on Sat morning, a young man came in with a self-inflicted gunshot wound to the head. The doctor declared him brain dead. The doctor then spoke to the family and told them that they needed to make a decision about unplugging him from the machines and that he would be back shortly. He then talked to me and said that I needed to ask about organ donation because that needed to be arranged before the plug was pulled. He made sure to iterate that there was to be no pressure and that if the family said 'no', then we were to respect that and move on.

We approached the family, and as soon as we mentioned 'organs', the family interrupted us and said that they had been discussing it and that they would like to donate his entire body, in hopes that something good could come from their tragedy. We were floored.

I then contacted the two donation agencies (one for the eyes, one for the rest of the body). They came from Atlanta (about 1 1/2 hrs away) and brought their own doctors, etc. (And I called my boss, who spent her Saturday on the phone with me, helping me with the mounds of paperwork that no one had ever waded through before at that hospital).

A month or two later, I received a letter from the agency that took his organs. It detailed all the people who now can live longer lives because of the generosity of this one family, this one person's body. The man who got the heart, the mother who got a kidney, the young man who got the other kidney, the woman who got the liver. The list went on and on. I sat there and cried, re-reading the letter over and over.

Being afraid before to list myself as an organ donor on my license, I changed my mind that day and have been listed since then as an organ donor. No, I don't believe that hospitals let people die to get their organs (like I had been led to believe). Nor to paramedics on the side of the road think more about the organs than they do the life in their hands, that they have been trained to save. The hospitals don't get the organs anyway; they contact a different agency. And the organs go to people on a national list, in order of need.

My friend who I discussed earlier - who was brain dead and her husband decided early to have her unplugged from the machines? She needed a liver transplant from Hep C. She didn't get one in time. :(

Anyway, I just wanted to share my experience with the whole organ donation process.

(ETA - Prior to that, in college, I worked for a heart transplant surgeon. I watched firsthand as the doctors prepared periodically for a transplant because a heart had been located. I was actually allowed to sit in the observation booth for the first heart-lung transplant that they had ever performed. And it was made possible by a young man in an motorcycle wreck who was then declared brain dead as the hospital. His family chose to donate his organs, and I saw this lucky recipient get the heart and lungs. She is still alive today, and this was 25 yrs ago. Organ donors really matter. I wonder if Jahi's mom has considered donation as a way for her daughter to live on and give life to others?)
 
  • #1,111
Why all this trash talk over a grieving family. No one seems to realize they believe in their gut she is alive. That tehy are wrong doesn't make it any less real to them. They are victims as well as Harmony said in her post yesterday and we shouldn't be attacking them I don't know how to bump or find a post or i would have bumped it

IMO
 
  • #1,112
I agree and have always felt it should have been over a long time ago. I don't blame the hospital at all. I know they are relieved and I know the staff is also relieved.

ETA: I also think that the facility that is receiving her should be investigated by the state for ethical violations. IMO, it is unethical for a facility to do this. What are we going to start doing? Keeping people that have been declared dead by artificial means until all of their body systems fail.

I don't blame the family or the people recieving her. It was done under court order in a settlement agreement overseen by the court.

What would you do if you believed, rightly or wrongly, that your daughter was alive and no help was being given. Moms state of denial and the families is deep and will likely take a good amount of time to come to terms with it. That doesn't make them bad or evil or anything but deserving of compassion IMO
 
  • #1,113
I went to bed shortly after 11:00 and woke to the news that Jahi has been moved out of Children's. In many ways, this is good news as the hospital is no longer responsible for the child. I hope the family does what is best for their loved one.

Now, I must play catch-up on overnight posts.
 
  • #1,114
Where is her "dad" by the way? Has anyone heard anything from him? I would think he would have surfaced if only for the settlement money if he was alive.

While reading up on Jahi I came across this story: http://abcnews.go.com/Health/ohio-t...ted-brothers-trashed-kidney/story?id=20116839

Amazing story, a brother donates a kidney to his very ill sister and after the kidney is removed a nurse THROWS IT IN THE TRASH! Not only could that have cost the sister her life but the brother lost one of his kidneys and that is a brutal surgery for the doners. It is scary to think there are staff like that holding important positions in hospitals.

This may be slightly off topic, but the above news story reminded me of another about a man suing the hospital who overworked his wife. She was a nurse who had to work such long and irregular shifts that she fell asleep driving home and had a fatal accident.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/12/health/ohio-nurse-worked-to-death-lawsuit-says/

From the article:

Staff shortages and overextended shifts for nurses are a nationwide issue, according to National Nurses United, the nation's largest union representing registered nurses, with nearly 185,000 members throughout the country. But wrongful death litigation stemming from staffing issues is unusual.

"Chronic understaffing is rampant throughout hospitals around the country," said Bonnie Castillo, the union's government relations director. "It is probably the single biggest issue facing nurses nowadays, and it's not only affecting nurses, but patient health as well."

Unlike doctors who have different payment arrangements, hospitals find they can save money by forcing nurses to work 12 hour shifts, often calling them in at the last minute. It's part of the reason why so many nurses are leaving hospital work.
 
  • #1,115
In my opinion, the line was crossed when the trash talking/bashing/lies about the hospital began by the family and lawyer. What should have been a private matter became a media circus of misinformation instead.

From the thread Harmony is just opening:
*Please stop making negative insinuations about the family... Websleuths advocates for victims and Jahi's family are victims in this tragic situation. Please try to be a little more understanding about their devastating loss and struggles in dealing with it... thanks
 
  • #1,116
The Daily Mail article incorrectly said that New Beginnings was a hospice.

I checked Nassau County records and there is no hospice in Medford and there is no hospice named New Beginnings.

As mentioned above, there is no license for New Beginnings as it is an only an office space where groups or individuals with TBI may meet.

Again, the woman who runs NB is not stating medical fact and the public should be reminded that she has no medical qualifications and any comments she makes are her own opinion, only.
 
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  • #1,119
http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/06/health/jahi-mcmath-girl-brain-dead/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

(Snip) "The body of Jahi McMath was released by Children's Hospital & Research Center Oakland to the coroner," said David Durand, the hospital's chief of pediatrics. "The coroner has released her body to the custody of her mother, Latasha Winkfield, as per court order, for a destination unknown."

This just amazes me! Released to the coroner and the coroner releases to the family.
B B M
IMOO this all sounds more insane to me this morning.
I just don't know what to think about it.
Rhetorical question, how long will this go on?
:twocents:
 
  • #1,120
There is a big difference between placing a nasogastric tube and a gastrostomy tube. Any tube placement they are mentioning almost has to be a nasogastric tube.

If she had been in a vegetative state, and not brain dead, an xray would have likely been taken to check on position, especially as the condition of the tracheal cuff of the endotracheal tube for the ventilator is precarious. The NG tube can end up coiled in the trachea and any liquid instilled will go into the lungs setting up an acute pneumonia.

There is also no guarantee that the tube won't perforate the stomach. There is no guarantee that any liquid instilled through the tube will actually be processed through the gut rather than just pooling in the relatively aperistaltic stomach and small bowel.

Putting in a permanent tracheostomy is even more difficult if adequate equipment, ventilation, anesthesia, and lighting are not available.

Hard to believe any of this is occurring at the mother's home in preparation for further travel, as described by Dolan.
 
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