Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #6

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  • #361
Ha! Ha! I'm listening to Byrne and he is saying that her temp is normal, her blood pressure is normal, blah, blah

If Dolan tries to use this "information" in a lawsuit, he will have to produce all the medical records, which will identify the facility, the physicians, all of the staff caring for her, and it will all be subject to intense scrutiny.

It might be wise for everyone involved to read the definition of perjury before they testify. Most especially Drs. Byrne and Hammons.
 
  • #362
As I posted up thread, I really think the focus on food is really important to NW. Perhaps she has equated feeding her children with being a good, loving mom. If it has been a prominent part of her family and culture, her desire for this g tube may be what she needed to feel she has done all that she could for her daughter.

I have 3 friends that are of Italian heritage and they are excellent cooks. I know they equate cooking food with love. I am not a good cook, so going to their homes to feast is a celebration.

Which brings me to this. What if the family while visiting Jahi post recovery in the PICU, snuck Jahi some of their food because she was hungry? She would have been NPO for hours prior to surgery. What if they gave her a cracker, a French fry or something, not realizing that it would have dire consequences? It would not be the first time family members thinking they were helping or loving, did not follow the instructions they were given. Food for thought....
 
  • #363
What I don't understand is WHY they are insisting on enteral (gut) feedings?

They have IV access-- and most likely central access. Why not pursue "nutrients" via the intravenous route?

Is it just that it is more emotionally satisfying to them to see a bag of tube feed, versus a bag of TPN? Like a baby bottle of infant formula?

I am just really puzzled at this ongoing fixation on enteral nutrition and tube feeding.

Did they not read Dr. Fiori's report? No bowel sounds for weeks. Sloughing intestine. It's not like all of a sudden peristalsis will return, and absorption will be effective. This is kind of like magical thinking, IMO. (Well, not "kind of"-- it is magical thinking. IMO.)

Or, I guess I could go back to trying to look at this as a personal/ family death ritual.

I guess we all know that the tube feeds will not go well. IMO, it's just adding more misery to what they already have to deal with, with the state of her body. But I guess on some level it must bring some comfort to NW. I'm trying to be okay with that, but I'm really not okay with it at all.

And again-- we would never have known about the g-tube placement and feeds, if they weren't so concerned with their "privacy" that they had to blast it out in tweets and instagram. About an hour after they said they wanted privacy.

I guess they define privacy "differently" than I do. Very differently.

I think their definition of privacy is not having to answer any questions while still getting their side out. jmo
 
  • #364
On the Keep Jahi on life support FB page someone stated that her death certificate isn't complete. So either the family simply hasn't received the report or they are giving more false information in an attempt to gain support.

IIRC, it takes two weeks for it to be provided in paper form, but isn't complete because the corner hasn't done an autopsy on the body.
 
  • #365
Why does no one worry about MY gag reflex? Because I can assure you after reading some of the links in this thread it is in *perfect* working order!

I don't know how you medical folks do it. Blood? Blood is fine, no problem (as long as it isn't my own personal blood, in which case Katie bar the door!) But when we start talking about things 'sloughing' and mucous being suctioned it makes me want to run around in circles flapping my hands and making high-pitched noises.

Well, that's exactly how I feel when I find something furry or weepy in the refrigerator rotter-- I mean, "vegetable drawer"! (My DH calls it "the rotter"!) :scared:

Medical people get grossed out, too-- it's just that different things gross us out!
 
  • #366
Yet again, another mention of money by the family.

I thought Dolan told us all the care was going to be free?

Remember that not one word of her condition has yet been verified by any credible, independent medical source (and I do not consider Dr. Byrne to be credible or independent).

So all this talk is hearsay, to me. Nothing more than the same kind of stories the family made up about the CHO experience, just positive, instead of negative.
 
  • #367
What does "doing good" mean in regards to feeding Jahi's deceased body? Does that simply mean the body hasn't outright rejected the tube or...? I'm confused.
 
  • #368
bbm, Wouldn't it fester in her stomach and cause gases and such. I am being honest. I can't imagine putting it in a stomach that is not functioning. I mean, really. jmo idk

I think it could.
 
  • #369
There is no gag reflux. That is one of the many tests they perform when determining brain death.

So where is this nutrition going? If her bowels are compromised, she can't eliminate. My "assumption" would be the nutrients would eventually rot in her body. Not a nice thought to have.
 
  • #370
Isn't that alittle like the fox guarding the hen house?




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No. No fox. No chickens.

Peer evaluation in an academic setting is not a group of old-boys-club guys sitting around and going along to get along with whatever. It is absolutely stark and relentless simply because everyone on whatever committee is struck is an expert in their field, and has definite ideas as to what standards exist, what standards are ideal, what standards are acceptable, and what standards are unacceptable. Every person on an academic committee is highly articulate, very experienced and extremely competitive or they would not be in the position they hold in order to be recommended to sit on a review panel.

These people are chosen by their peers which is not to say they are chosen by colleagues. IMO, most would not hesitate to point out errors in judgement in order to demonstrate how they work within their own practices. If they accept sloppy work by their peers, they will be considered by many others in their field to have poor standards within their own studies, research, practice. These highly intelligent, disciplined and educated people will not allow anything to get by their investigation. They will, again IMO, do extensive research to be sure their information is up to date before even beginning to consider the circumstances the committee is required to investigate.

Back in the day, the most competitive academics were to be found in the fields of medicine. Those people invited to be part of the McMath case review would not be drawn from any one hospital or university to prevent accusations of bias, and they will all be aware of the knowledge and skills of the other members. No one will want to appear to be coasting. If asked to conduct a review of fellow medical professionals, I think you can be assured that every member of a peer review board would become conversant with every aspect of the pre-surgical tests and diagnosis, the surgical procedures, the care given after surgery, the activities of all medical and support staff from the time the surgery was scheduled to the time Miss McMath was released from CHO. They would not just skim over news articles.

Although lay people, like me, might have a lot of questions about what happened, there is no way someone not conversant with current standards and procedures, however well intentioned or impassioned, would be able to evaluate the answers to those questions. The technical references, the jargon used by people who work in medicine are very specific. The connotations of words and phrases understood by those people would not be understood in the same way by those outside of the field without lengthy explanations, if then. In fact, because lay people don't know all the ramifications of small details, all the necessary questions would probably not be asked. As well, IIRC, the review committee or panel will not receive any remuneration for their service, so their only goal is to maintain a high standard of practice. (I'm sure someone will correct this if I'm mistaken.)

Although I think that it is sometimes felt that "doctors/nurses/etc. all stick together", and that preconceived idea is certainly out there (ie. Seinfeld, Season 8, Episode 5), I don't believe it's true. The science and art of medicine is, I think, best examined and defended, by those who are its practitioners. I cannot imagine that a peer review board would accept the inept work of a "quack" just because the person in question was likeable, or a friend, or associated with a celebrity. Part of having a professional organization is being, to some extent, being capable of self-policing and removing people from the organization who are not practicing the standards held by that organization.

That said, human beings make mistakes. Further, sometimes even when no mistakes have been made, unexpected things happen, and tragedies occur. The fact that a tragedy happens does not mean that the medical team involved wanted something to go wrong because they wanted to punish someone or because they were to lazy to care. When death happens in a place like CHO, people are devastated and want to determine what happened in the hope that it can be prevented from happening again. It will never be swept under the rug. Yes, right now there is no transparency, and it is because medical professionals follow HIPPA, and because the family will not allow information to be released.

The cause of the McMath tragedy must now be determined by medical experts from the evidence of records and witnesses, not from hearsay and the conjecture of those who may stand to profit from a particular conclusion. Again, I'm sure my errors will be corrected, but I think once the facts involved in this case are determined, it will then be time to move to a formal, legal arena in which all the laws of evidence are upheld and in which those whose specialty is the law as it pertains to medicine will go further in assigning innocence or blame.

It will be, IMO, at that point that the family lawyer's propensity to conjure up a straw man when he wants to malign the medical staff of CHO. I personally am looking forward to seeing CHO's legal team pick him apart for doing this.

Finally, a judge or jury will have the opportunity to make a verdict that could have financial consequences.

I look forward to hearing the opinions of the many posters who are experts in these fields.
 
  • #371
I think it could.

There are lots of places where bacteria, and maybe fungi are overgrowing in a body when there is no spontanous respiration, cough, gag, peristalsis, muscular movement. Lots of places for secretions to build up and get overgrown with bacteria and fungi, lots of places that can't be cleaned or maintained.
 
  • #372
Nick Smith ‏@nicksmithnews 3m
#NEW INFO: according to family, #JahiMcMath has had feeding tube inserted and is "doing great." pic.twitter.com/TqWC1qt3FQ

msm

My goodness - I wish they would define DOING GREAT. As being brain dead, sloughing off your gut and bowel lining doesn't sound all that great to me.

:scared:

MOO
 
  • #373
What I don't understand is WHY they are insisting on enteral (gut) feedings?

They have IV access-- and most likely central access. Why not pursue "nutrients" via the intravenous route?

Is it just that it is more emotionally satisfying to them to see a bag of tube feed, versus a bag of TPN? Like a baby bottle of infant formula?

I am just really puzzled at this ongoing fixation on enteral nutrition and tube feeding.

Did they not read Dr. Fiori's report? No bowel sounds for weeks. Sloughing intestine. It's not like all of a sudden peristalsis will return, and absorption will be effective. This is kind of like magical thinking, IMO. (Well, not "kind of"-- it is magical thinking. IMO.)

Or, I guess I could go back to trying to look at this as a personal/ family death ritual.

I guess we all know that the tube feeds will not go well. IMO, it's just adding more misery to what they already have to deal with, with the state of her body. But I guess on some level it must bring some comfort to NW. I'm trying to be okay with that, but I'm really not okay with it at all.

And again-- we would never have known about the g-tube placement and feeds, if they weren't so concerned with their "privacy" that they had to blast it out in tweets and instagram. About an hour after they said they wanted privacy.

I guess they define privacy "differently" than I do. Very differently.

I guess they don't see how intravenous feeding works. Possible lack of education, and if this is the case someone is not doing their job of communicating.
 
  • #374
What I don't understand is WHY they are insisting on enteral (gut) feedings?



They have IV access-- and most likely central access. Why not pursue "nutrients" via the intravenous route?



Is it just that it is more emotionally satisfying to them to see a bag of tube feed, versus a bag of TPN? Like a baby bottle of infant formula?



I am just really puzzled at this ongoing fixation on enteral nutrition and tube feeding.



Did they not read Dr. Fiori's report? No bowel sounds for weeks. Sloughing intestine. It's not like all of a sudden peristalsis will return, and absorption will be effective. This is kind of like magical thinking, IMO. (Well, not "kind of"-- it is magical thinking. IMO.)



Or, I guess I could go back to trying to look at this as a personal/ family death ritual.



I guess we all know that the tube feeds will not go well. IMO, it's just adding more misery to what they already have to deal with, with the state of her body. But I guess on some level it must bring some comfort to NW. I'm trying to be okay with that, but I'm really not okay with it at all.



And again-- we would never have known about the g-tube placement and feeds, if they weren't so concerned with their "privacy" that they had to blast it out in tweets and instagram. About an hour after they said they wanted privacy.



I guess they define privacy "differently" than I do. Very differently.


I have a medical question. What about people in medically induced comas? Or people that were on a ventilator and later a trac for assisted breathing for a month? The ones that didn't have a feeding tube inserted because it was only a month or so...and they were expected to recover. What happens to their digestive system and how is it different?


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  • #375
Well, that's exactly how I feel when I find something furry or weepy in the refrigerator rotter-- I mean, "vegetable drawer"! (My DH calls it "the rotter"!) :scared:

Medical people get grossed out, too-- it's just that different things gross us out!

How about this for a deal: *I* deal with all your rotten vegetable issues (and I'll even throw in litter box accidents because I have plenty of experience with those) and *you* handle all my mucous suctioning needs! :floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:
 
  • #376
Why does no one worry about MY gag reflex? Because I can assure you after reading some of the links in this thread it is in *perfect* working order!

I don't know how you medical folks do it. Blood? Blood is fine, no problem (as long as it isn't my own personal blood, in which case Katie bar the door!) But when we start talking about things 'sloughing' and mucous being suctioned it makes me want to run around in circles flapping my hands and making high-pitched noises.

We are glad your gag reflexes working. Please don't run around the room flapping your hands and making high pitched noises if you have food or drink in your mouth. You don't want to over stress your gag reflex. At home I have a very sensitive gag reflex but on the job I have learned to move through it in some cases. Clenching teeth helps.
 
  • #377
I have a medical question. What about people in medically induced comas? Or people that were on a ventilator and later a trac for assisted breathing for a month? The ones that didn't have a feeding tube inserted because it was only a month or so...and they were expected to recover. What happens to their digestive system and how is it different?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I am by no means a medical professional but my understanding is that their systems are generally still OK because while they may be unresponsive in a coma, their brain is still sending signals and messages to the internal organs.
 
  • #378
Till his heart stops.


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A heart doesn't need a body in order to beat. Can jjenny put her grandfather's heart in a jar and oxygenate it so that it beats and then collect his pension. What if Jahi's heart was removed from her body and beating was maintained artificially (as it is now, basically but still in her body), would that be different?
 
  • #379
BBM: yes, I expressed the fear a while back that Jahi's body would be subjected to human--you can't really call it vivisection, because her body is only maintaining certain functions as she is attached to a ventilator, but for lack of another word--vivisection. What else do you call performing medical procedures on an individual who is dead according to the laws to her state of residence, the consensus of professional societies, generally accepted medical ethics, etc.? It is experimentation, that is what it is.

And some may call it compassionate, but I call it twisted, perverse, and frightening. Are we now going to be OK with artificially animating corpses and performing medical experimentation on them as long as their families members consent out of some faith-based belief need to deny the end of life? Are we really going down that road?

It appears so. And it frightens me.
b b m

Thank you for saying it. It frightens me too.
 
  • #380
What kind of food does one insert into a deceased person and where does it go? This is too strange. I can't comprehend it.

I truly hate to tell ya sweet pea..BUT just because electrical activety decreases..DOES not mean the Body decays..All it means is electrical activity doesn opporate thru the usal highways....you deem her DEAD..BUT as a 44 year Veteran of Fronline and Critical Care..SHE isnt dead..and in particular, Certainly her parents and FAmily dont believe that...

However Brain injuries due to LACK OF Oxygen due to CHO (hospitals lack of monitoring)Negligence, Jahi sustained Brain damage...Electrical activity does NOT mean decomp..nor decay...All it means is she since CHO hasnt bothered to give her any Nutrients..has "Deteriorate"..FAR from Decomposition...

All I can say is> Just walk one block in the shoes of folks like this..just maybe one may have some sympathy and empathy for what this hospitals negligence has forced them into....Thats about it...

BTW..Its called TPN....Nutrients infused to nurture cellular sustainings....Maybe Google may help ut understanding how it all works....

It seems to me..empathy and compassion for this child and family is lost for some..BUT having dealt with such..I just cant abide with such harsh judgements..especially when I read alot of speculations and opinions NOT based on Medical data's..Instead..based on blogs and innuendo's and believe me CHO has not been forthcoming on their part in this at all..IMO :seeya:
 
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