Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #7

[K_Z]

I have to apologize for my previous comments...the thread is getting off topic!

But getting back to the correct topic, here is a tidbit I gleaned from an article that I hadn't seen before:

Jahi underwent surgery Dec. 9 to remove her tonsils, adenoids and uvula at Children's Hospital Oakland. She was declared brain-dead three days later after going into cardiac arrest and suffering extensive hemorrhaging in her brain.

(Bold and colored blue by me.) If true, that is interesting. Not just hypoxic encephalopathy.
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...ctions-20140110,0,1306040.story#ixzz2q4Biy4bY

 

[MLO]

I have to apologize for my previous comments...the thread is getting off topic!

But getting back to the correct topic, here is a tidbit I gleaned from an article that I hadn't seen before:



(Bold and colored blue by me.) If true, that is interesting. Not just hypoxic encephalopathy.
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...ctions-20140110,0,1306040.story#ixzz2q4Biy4bY

Can you explain the difference K_Z? What would have caused the bleeding into her brain? My first thought was because her palate was injured but anatomy of the skull hasn't really stuck with me.

 

[Kaliste]

link

I just have to say you deserve a giant cupcake. You've been most patient with us!!

 

[wendiesan]

While I understand that organ donation is a factor in some cases, I don't believe that it is in Jahi's case. Can we either make a new thread for the organ donation (as I believe there are things which should indeed be discussed), or at least stop posting in this thread about that?

From everything I've ever read, organ donation has NOT BEEN a consideration with Jahi, and I don't believe it should be introduced as if it had been or is.

(I'm no mod, so this is just a request from a fellow WSer...)

Best-
Herding Cats

Hey HC.
From what I remember, the organ donation subject was raised in regard to the contention by Byrne that brain death was a means to legally harvest organs from living human beings. http://www.truthaboutorgandonation.com/aboutdrbyrne.html
(Byrne he is the neonatologist who declared Jahi was alive after the 6 neurosurgeons declared her to be deceased.)

 

[K_Z]

Can you explain the difference K_Z? What would have caused the bleeding into her brain? My first thought was because her palate was injured but anatomy of the skull hasn't really stuck with me.

Well, first, we have no idea if this is even true information. It's from the mainstream media, without a quote as to where they obtained that info. So, that has to be put into perspective that it could be entirely incorrect, and just some reporter's interpretation of "something".

If she had an intracranial bleed, it would be helpful to know at what point this was discovered, to be better able to understand what may have happened. And where in the head the bleeding occurred-- was it subdural, or epidural? Was there some unknown AV malformation (doubtful)? Did she have a bleeding disorder? Was she in DIC?

I don't have any answers here. My assumption was she had brain death from the profound swelling associated with low oxygen, secondary to hemorrhage and a prolonged resuscitation. But maybe not.

I guess in the big scheme of things, it doesn't matter. She is still brain dead. The rest will come out in court in a year or 2, I suppose.

 

[Soulmagent]

I have to apologize for my previous comments...the thread is getting off topic!

But getting back to the correct topic, here is a tidbit I gleaned from an article that I hadn't seen before:



(Bold and colored blue by me.) If true, that is interesting. Not just hypoxic encephalopathy.
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...ctions-20140110,0,1306040.story#ixzz2q4Biy4bY

So I am guessing this is a what came first the chicken or the egg, as to the hemorrhage and the cardiac arrest?

 

[txsvicki]

The uvula wasn't removed was it? Surely just a part of it. Makes my throat and upper palate ache just thinking about all that was done.

 

[K_Z]

The uvula wasn't removed was it? Surely just a part of it. Makes my throat and upper palate ache just thinking about all that was done.

Here is a reference for the UPPP portion of her procedures:

Uvulopalatopharyngoplasty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Isabelle]

I have to apologize for my previous comments...the thread is getting off topic!

But getting back to the correct topic, here is a tidbit I gleaned from an article that I hadn't seen before:



(Bold and colored blue by me.) If true, that is interesting. Not just hypoxic encephalopathy.
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...ctions-20140110,0,1306040.story#ixzz2q4Biy4bY

Yes, that is interesting. I don't recall any of the documents filed with the court mentioning that. Could Dolan be confusing the process of decomposition of the brain with hemorrhaging. In any event, if she did have extensive hemorrhaging in the brain, what do you think would have caused it? I am thinking DIC triggered by the extensive oral and nasal bleed (It was certainly quite a bit of blood to require 4 transfusions, then consider the effect of the transfusions on her clotting ability).

 

[Soulmagent]

Yes, that is interesting. I don't recall any of the documents filed with the court mentioning that. Could Dolan be confusing the process of decomposition of the brain with hemorrhaging. In any event, if she did have extensive hemorrhaging in the brain, what do you think would have caused it? I am thinking DIC triggered by the extensive oral and nasal bleed (It was certainly quite a bit of blood to require 4 transfusions, then consider the effect of the transfusions on her clotting ability).

I would find it hard to believe a personal injury attorney wouldn't know what a
hemorrhage was.

 

[txsvicki]

Here is a reference for the UPPP portion of her procedures:

Uvulopalatopharyngoplasty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

OMG. I couldn't read it all. Wow.

 

[Karmady]

Yes, that is interesting. I don't recall any of the documents filed with the court mentioning that. Could Dolan be confusing the process of decomposition of the brain with hemorrhaging. In any event, if she did have extensive hemorrhaging in the brain, what do you think would have caused it? I am thinking DIC triggered by the extensive oral and nasal bleed (It was certainly quite a bit of blood to require 4 transfusions, then consider the effect of the transfusions on her clotting ability).

where is dolan talking about decomposition of the brain, please.

 

[katydid23]

where is dolan talking about decomposition of the brain, please.

try this:
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/l...#ixzz2q4Biy4bY

OOPS -- does not work ----brb

 

[Soulmagent]

where is dolan talking about decomposition of the brain, please.

He wasn't ,Isabelle speculated that maybe he just misspoke , at least it seems that way from reading the post.

 

[SeekingJana]

Well, first, we have no idea if this is even true information. It's from the mainstream media, without a quote as to where they obtained that info. So, that has to be put into perspective that it could be entirely incorrect, and just some reporter's interpretation of "something".

If she had an intracranial bleed, it would be helpful to know at what point this was discovered, to be better able to understand what may have happened. And where in the head the bleeding occurred-- was it subdural, or epidural? Was there some unknown AV malformation (doubtful)? Did she have a bleeding disorder? Was she in DIC?

I don't have any answers here. My assumption was she had brain death from the profound swelling associated with low oxygen, secondary to hemorrhage and a prolonged resuscitation. But maybe not.

I guess in the big scheme of things, it doesn't matter. She is still brain dead. The rest will come out in court in a year or 2, I suppose.

I'm going with DIC, K_Z, due to the number of transfusions she had post- op. And we absolutely do not know whether or not she received any blood products intra-operatively.

Caveat- if this new info is correct... it certainly fits more in with our questions from the beginning as to how she ended up brain dead from upper airway surgeries and reported post-op hemorrhaging of a very unknown origin, in a specialty care unit!

 

[Elley Mae]

I'm going with DIC, K_Z, due to the number of transfusions she had post- op. And we absolutely do not know whether or not she received any blood products intra-operatively.

Caveat- if this new info is correct... it certainly fits more in with our questions from the beginning as to how she ended up brain dead from upper airway surgeries and reported post-op hemorrhaging of a very unknown origin, in a specialty care unit!

What is this, DIC. TIA

 

[K_Z]

What is this, DIC. TIA

I want to stress very strongly that we do not know if this is what happened. I find it very odd that only this ONE article source has mentioned "extensive hemorrhaging in her brain." It does not quote the hospital, the mother, the uncle, or the attorney as the source of that information. It may be true, or, it may be that the layperson reporter took liberties with his story.

Having said that, DIC is disseminated intravascular coagulation. It is a very serious consumptive coagulopathy, or a paradoxical bleeding disorder that uses up the normal clotting mechanisms to make clots in the wrong places in the body, while simultaneously bleeding to death. It's an awful, frightening condition, and fatal for many who develop it.

Here are two references:

Disseminated intravascular coagulation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/199627-overview

 

[Donjeta]

As the case has been going, my bet is another confused reporter, someone who didn't connect the dots how Jahi's hemorrhaging in the throat area could have led to brain death.

Here's another scary article: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jan/9/orient-a-return-to-back-alley-medicine/?page=1

A brain-dead patient is not in the same situation as the Terri Schiavo saga. Although in a persistent vegetative state for 15 years, no one ever suggested that Schiavo was brain-dead. The controversy was over whether she had some awareness. If allowed, she could have lived for years longer with a feeding tube and nursing care.

This is not true of a brain-dead patient. The hospital need not worry about having the patient on a ventilator for weeks or months. Two days is about the maximum. The patient rapidly loses the ability to regulate body temperature, blood pressure and other basic functions. The temperature may fluctuate wildly, and then the body soon assumes room temperature, where metabolic activity cannot occur.

If this does not happen, the patient is not brain-dead. The definitive test is an arteriogram or nuclear medicine scan that demonstrates absence of blood flow. This test is seldom done. Instead, doctors rely on absence of detectable neurologic functions, such as brainstem reflexes or brain waves. Cells that are not able to function in this way may yet be alive, able to maintain their structural integrity — and potentially recover.

The author is basically saying that if the patient lasts over two days on the ventilator she can't be brain dead. This is scary because it is not true (think about those brain dead women who were pregnant and the fetus was sustained for months until viability) but I can just see it used as evidence that Jahi or some other unfortunate soul is not dead and should be eternally animated by machines. See, he's been hooked up to the ventilator for three days already, he's not brain dead, you can't stop life support.

The scariest thing about it is that the author is described as a doctor.

Dr. Jane M. Orient practices internal medicine in Tucson, Ariz., and is executive director of the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons.

 

[popsicle]

ORIENT: A return to back-alley medicine

Abortions no longer are relegated to back alleys, but one day lifesaving procedures may be.
In fact, we may be almost there. The machinery is in place.

snip

In California, it is actually against the law to do surgery on a dead patient, including a brain-dead patient, such as one who was recently referred to as “dead, dead, dead, dead.” A surgeon who did so could lose his hospital privileges, his medical license, and even his liberty. The exception, of course, is to harvest still-living organs for transplantation. Indeed, the organ shortage is the reason the concept of “brain death” was developed.

(Dr. Jane M. Orient practices internal medicine in Tucson, Ariz., and is executive director of the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons.)

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news...-to-back-alley-medicine/#.UtFMdS4GOos.twitter

 

[popsicle]

As the case has been going, my bet is another confused reporter, someone who didn't connect the dots how Jahi's hemorrhaging in the throat area could have led to brain death.

Here's another scary article: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jan/9/orient-a-return-to-back-alley-medicine/?page=1



The author is basically saying that if the patient lasts over two days on the ventilator she can't be brain dead. This is scary because it is not true (think about those brain dead women who were pregnant and the fetus was sustained for months until viability) but I can just see it used as evidence that Jahi or some other unfortunate soul is not dead and should be eternally animated by machines. See, he's been hooked up to the ventilator for three days already, he's not brain dead, you can't stop life support.

The scariest thing about it is that the author is described as a doctor.

I think she means a brain dead patient on only a vent and nothing else. No supplements etc. jmo