Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #7

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  • #801
Wait a minute. Regardless of how many or how few family members the people on this board are accustomed to being in the waiting room, how many people did the McMath family have there? No rumors, please, no FB, no comments on blogs or news articles. We've only heard about mom, gramma, and stepdad. The uncle seems to be a little undecided as to where he was. Even so, that would make only 4, and I can't imagine a hospital would allow all of them in the ICU at once.

There was more than one person in the ICU, as we know that mom was using the suction tube and then, at some point, she sent another family member to get the grandmother. That makes three family members in ICU. The grandmother then was using the suction tube. The grandmother then began shouting for a doctor, while mom passed out cold on the floor. The uncle was in Cabo, but he wants to be the spokesperson, and as such, he seems to be pretending that the stories told by people that were there are things he himself witnessed.

With all that commotion going on around a child that should have been under the exclusive care of ICU nurses ... it's a recipe for disaster.
 
  • #802
Wait a minute. Regardless of how many or how few family members the people on this board are accustomed to being in the waiting room, how many people did the McMath family have there? No rumors, please, no FB, no comments on blogs or news articles. We've only heard about mom, gramma, and stepdad. The uncle seems to be a little undecided as to where he was. Even so, that would make only 4, and I can't imagine a hospital would allow all of them in the ICU at once.


Maybe some confusion because it was reported that fifteen people or so celebrated Christmas at CHO but this was of course weeks after the day of the surgery?

It was said that mom and grandma took turns at some point.
 
  • #803
Incidentally, I looked at the uncle's instagram* about Cabo. He noted it was his last day there. One friend said your niece is having surgery today. He commented I'll go to see her when I get back. I think he is just a pushy guy who is trying to get his face out front of something. He is rather good-looking- looks like an actor named Michael B. Jordan.

* comment 444 on thread #4
 
  • #804
There was more than one person in the ICU, as we know that mom was using the suction tube and then, at some point, she sent another family member to get the grandmother. That makes three family members in ICU. The grandmother then was using the suction tube. The grandmother then began shouting for a doctor, while mom passed out cold on the floor. The uncle was in Cabo, but he wants to be the spokesperson, and as such, he seems to be pretending that the stories told by people that were there are things he himself witnessed.

With all that commotion going on around a child that should have been under the exclusive care of ICU nurses ... it's a recipe for disaster.

Well now Otto - that account has changed as well... :scared:

NW also stated that she was out of the room temporarily and Grandma was with her - she heard the call to Jahi's room - and "rushed back" and when she went back in she passed out after seeing all the blood and they were trying to restart her heart (paraphrased). So, you're guess is as good as mine as to which account has truth behind it.

:banghead:
 
  • #805
Well now Otto - that account has changed as well... :scared:

NW also stated that she was out of the room temporarily and Grandma was with her - she heard the call to Jahi's room - and "rushed back" and when she went back in she passed out after seeing all the blood and they were trying to restart her heart (paraphrased). So, you're guess is as good as mine as to which account has truth behind it.

:banghead:

The first mistake, in my opinion, was that the family used the suction tube. The second mistake was that more than one family member was in ICU and they were in the way of nursing staff. The problem, in addition to mistakes during the care of the patient, was a passed out mom in the middle of the floor. That would have created even more commotion.
 
  • #806
Incidentally, I looked at the uncle's instagram* about Cabo. He noted it was his last day there. One friend said your niece is having surgery today. He commented I'll go to see her when I get back. I think he is just a pushy guy who is trying to get his face out front of something. He is rather good-looking- looks like an actor named Michael B. Jordan.

* comment 444 on thread #4

I believe that was Jahi's mother commenting about the surgery.
 
  • #807
The first mistake, in my opinion, was that the family used the suction tube. The second mistake was that more than one family member was in ICU and they were in the way of nursing staff. The problem, in addition to mistakes during the care of the patient, was a passed out mom in the middle of the floor. That would have created even more commotion.

BBM: Can you please quote a verified source for this statement?
 
  • #808
Funniest comment yet on Uncle O

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

Sorry, but if you're going to accept what the family is stating as FACT then I think it's only just as fair to take it all with a grain of salt. We know one thing - CHO hasn't had their shot at telling THEIR side of who all was there to witness when the SHTF - so I can't believe the family's account until I hear both sides agree on who was where.

While in Cabo, Uncle Omari was probably sipping Margaritas in salt-rimmed glasses and isn't quite sure where he was during Jahi's surgery. ;)
 
  • #809
I'm late to the conversation again!

Speaking from my experience, the amount of friends, family, and supporters varies depending on the social/ cultural group, as well as the reason for the hospitalization. Once a few years back, we had a whole herd of Red Hat Club ladies schedule their colonoscopies all on the same day, with the same surgeon. The ones who didn’t get their colonoscopies showed up to support their club members, drive them home, etc. And their friends from the hospital staff kept making excuses to come into the preop/ post op area. They were a fun group, but just as disruptive as the “not so fun” large groups of supporters.

On the occasions I have been called in to do labor epidurals for high school teens, there is generally a sea of high school letter jackets in the hall, waiting room, and patient room (if the nurses haven’t chased them out yet), regardless of the culture or ethnicity of the laboring teen. We have several immigrant populations in our region, and they are known for bringing large numbers of supporters and relatives to the hospital to support a laboring mom, as well as during other more serious accidents and situations. ER’s have to deal with this issue of crowd control every day, from large urban areas to remote rural hospitals. Part of delivering "culturally competent care" is learning about these cultural behaviors, and developing strategies to respect them, and also enforce the necessary rules and policies of the hospital.

I worked locum tenens at a hospital on a reservation a few times, and crowd control and behavior control of visitors was a problem in every area of that particular facility, from preop to OB. This particular facility had formally made signs in every waiting room advising that open bottles and consumption of alcohol on hospital property was not permitted, yet I saw empty liquor bottles in trash cans in that hospital, even in the preop area, and hidden in supply cupboards in patient care areas.

Crowd control does get to be a real issue, sometimes, and is a distraction and a headache for the staff, the patient, and the “other” patients. You have to do your best to set limits, be polite, be consistent about the rules, and keep the focus on the patient, and call for help when necessary. Very few people in these large crowds of supporters that show up think the “rules” apply to them, in my experience. Sometimes the best thing to do is to try to find an empty conference room for them to gather in. This can be a win-win situation if it is presented to the large group in a sensitive and respectful fashion-- the other families and patients are given their quiet and privacy, and the large group has their own space.

It is generally accepted that this is just something that we have to deal with off and on. Some hospitals have more security features and security staff than others, to help with diplomacy and crowd control.
 
  • #810
While in Cabo, Uncle Otto was probably sipping Margaritas in salt-rimmed glasses and isn't quite sure where he was during Jahi's surgery. ;)

Otto was in Cabo too? :floorlaugh:
 
  • #811
I apologize if this has been asked and answered, trying to keep up. I'm wondering what the likelihood is of the family facing some kind of legal liability issues if they did indeed ignore orders regarding feeding and suctioning. I'm not saying I think this should happen as I think this family has suffered plenty (even though I completely disagree with their choices.) I'm simply wondering if this COULD happen?
 
  • #812
  • #813
  • #814
I'm late to the conversation again!

Speaking from my experience, the amount of friends, family, and supporters varies depending on the social/ cultural group, as well as the reason for the hospitalization. Once a few years back, we had a whole herd of Red Hat Club ladies schedule their colonoscopies all on the same day, with the same surgeon. The ones who didn’t get their colonoscopies showed up to support their club members, drive them home, etc. And their friends from the hospital staff kept making excuses to come into the preop/ post op area. They were a fun group, but just as disruptive as the “not so fun” large groups of supporters.

On the occasions I have been called in to do labor epidurals for high school teens, there is generally a sea of high school letter jackets in the hall, waiting room, and patient room (if the nurses haven’t chased them out yet), regardless of the culture or ethnicity of the laboring teen. We have several immigrant populations in our region, and they are known for bringing large numbers of supporters and relatives to the hospital to support a laboring mom, as well as during other more serious accidents and situations. ER’s have to deal with this issue of crowd control every day, from large urban areas to remote rural hospitals. Part of delivering "culturally competent care" is learning about these cultural behaviors, and developing strategies to respect them, and also enforce the necessary rules and policies of the hospital.

I worked locum tenens at a hospital on a reservation a few times, and crowd control and behavior control of visitors was a problem in every area of that particular facility, from preop to OB. This particular facility had formally made signs in every waiting room advising that open bottles and consumption of alcohol on hospital property was not permitted, yet I saw empty liquor bottles in trash cans in that hospital, even in the preop area, and hidden in supply cupboards in patient care areas.

Crowd control does get to be a real issue, sometimes, and is a distraction and a headache for the staff, the patient, and the “other” patients. You have to do your best to set limits, be polite, be consistent about the rules, and keep the focus on the patient, and call for help when necessary. Very few people in these large crowds of supporters that show up think the “rules” apply to them, in my experience. Sometimes the best thing to do is to try to find an empty conference room for them to gather in. This can be a win-win situation if it is presented to the large group in a sensitive and respectful fashion-- the other families and patients are given their quiet and privacy, and the large group has their own space.

It is generally accepted that this is just something that we have to deal with off and on. Some hospitals have more security features and security staff than others, to help with diplomacy and crowd control.

Thank you for the first hand account! :seeya: I can kind of understand it when it comes to a baby being born because YEAH - A NEW BABY - WHOOHOO :loveyou: but I simply wouldn't expect to see that for a "routine tonsillectomy".

Maybe, like I said, my family is just the odd men out, but in the few times I've had to be at the hospital for my kids surgeries (all very "simple" surgeries) I've never seen such a gathering for support.

I guess maybe I just look at things differently - my goal is to get the surgery, get out, and get the wee one home to rest. My kids were so out of it anyway after surgery the last thing they'd want to do was take visitors.
 
  • #815
[video=youtube;rAZC22LHzPg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAZC22LHzPg[/video]

This 9 min clip is both
--- hilarious (because I've read similar stories from nurses & hosp E'ees)
and
---sad, because I imagine many fam visitors to ICU are like this.
Heaven help the hosp personnel dealing w one fam member like this, let alone numerous extended relatives.

The one time I was in hosp for a couple days with just the patient in the other bed yack-yack-yacking (to me), I was ready to lose it.

If the other patient had multiple loud visitors at bedside for hours at a time, I'd have begged the dr to put me into a medically induced coma. LOL

JM2cts and I am right about this one.:seeya:
 
  • #816
http://www.contracostatimes.com/new...om-and-13-days-at-childrens?source=JBarTicker

Winkfield's mother, a nurse, replaced her in the ICU, but when Winkfield heard an alert called for Room 10 -- Jahi's room -- she said she rushed back to find staff attempting to restart her daughter's heart. Then Winkfield blacked out, she said, and was admitted herself.

She found out her daughter was in a coma from her own first floor hospital bed, she said.

So it sounds like Jahi was fine until mother left the room and Grandma was left alone with her. Parents don't usually pop out in a crisis, they don't ask to be replaced while everything it hitting the fan. It sounds like Grandma the "nurse" came in, thought she knew what she was doing and then everything headed south.

That's what happens with editing. Here's the entire quote from that article.

http://www.contracostatimes.com/new...om-and-13-days-at-childrens?source=JBarTicker

After about 45 minutes of asking what was happening, Winkfield said she was brought to the ICU, where Jahi was sitting up in bed bleeding from her mouth.

Winkfield said nurses told her it was "normal," but the bleeding increased and the nurses gave her a cup and paper towels to contain it. Soon blood spilled from Jahi's nose, Winkfield said, and she tried to contain it with a small bucket, napkins and a suction device.

Unable to speak and drowsy on morphine, Jahi wrote her notes, Winkfield said, asking "Is this blood?" "Why am I bleeding so much?"

Winkfield's mother, a nurse, replaced her in the ICU, but when Winkfield heard an alert called for Room 10 -- Jahi's room -- she said she rushed back to find staff attempting to restart her daughter's heart. Then Winkfield blacked out, she said, and was admitted herself.
 
  • #817
  • #818
The biggest problem we had in the ER was family members letting in more family members into the patient's room. The entry doors from the waiting areas were locked so only staff could bring patients or family back to the treatment areas. It made my job just that much harder because not only was I trying to care for my patients, I had to do crowd control. I was nice the first couple of times and explained the rules, but when it kept happening, I wasn't so nice. It also interfered with how physicians did their job. They prefer to speak to a point person or parents so they don't have to repeat themselves.

This was also a problem in other areas of the hospital as well. Where access was limited, doors would be propped, visitors snuck in, a mess. The worst was when people brought food and would eat in the ER waiting room. Nauseous patients would have a really hard time. Nurses who would be doing triage had to play "waiting room monitor", which took them away from those that were sick. As long as people were respectful and considerate of others, and obeyed the rules, it was normally ok. JMO
 
  • #819
  • #820
For those in the medical profession or those that have large families, is it normal to have so many relatives in attendance when someone is getting surgery or in the hospital.

(I have very little family so my experiences are different)

In my experiences, usually one person would stay at the hospital and take turns with other family members. People would go home in between. I don't know how far this family lived from the hospital though.

I just find it so odd that so many stayed and slept at the hospital all over the place. It does make me wonder if something did happen after the surgery and it was disruptive to the staff and other patients.

The actions of the family certainly were disruptive during the time period after Jahi was declared dead. Even taking into account their grief, I am having a really hard time with the disrespect shown to others at the hospital.

I think it depends on the situation. I'm from a family of 5 children, not all that large until you start including the 13 grandchildren. So, 14 years ago my mum and dad were visiting me in Victoria when he had a nasty gall-bladder attack. In fact, it took a few days for the doctors to figure out what was going on despite the expertise there with geriatric care. During the first few days it was one person at a time in the room with my dad, until regular visiting hours when you could have two or three. The three of us (my then 15 yr. old son, my mum, and I) made sure he was not alone. I even broke the rules and sneaked in at night to double check that he was OK. My son just took his school books, and sat there in case grampy needed water or kleenex. (My dad also asked him to stay during some of the consultations, letting my son know his grandfather considered him to be a "responsible adult".) After my sisters flew in with some of their children, we took different shifts, looking after my dad and my mom. That's also when the normal sibling "turf war", albeit gentle, started. They couldn't wait to get our parents back home whereas I wasn't sure he should leave the doctors who were experts. Even with more of us there, the rules never changed.

A few years ago, back on the prairies, when my father was failing after what had seemed a successful heart surgery, the rules--one at a time unless visiting hours--didn't change. The family told the hospital that my father did not want medical intervention to keep him alive. The hospital complied with the request. At that point, three people could be in the room with him. Very quiet. Holding his had. Reading him one of his favorite stories. Letting him know how much he was loved. Slipping out of the room so a grandchild could come in. Being in the waiting room to hold whoever came out. Slipping back in when another sibling left.

The day before, one of my aunts had gone through the same process in the same hospital as my dad. My uncle, his children and grandchildren came to say good-bye, came to hold her hand as she left us. Same rules.

However, when my daughter had her first baby, her hospital allowed three visitors in at a time to see mom, dad, and baby. (I got to hold my minutes old grandson while his proud dad did major phoning.) In the hospital where she had her second baby, there were eight of us in her room at various times. Lots of friends and relations who were ready to vanish should a nurse come in.

Not the same as we weren't allowed in ICU. (In my aunt's case, it made no difference that her son was an MD. He was family, and a visitor.) Period. And these were adults, not children. But that's been my experience FWIW.
 
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