Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #7

[ItsJustaName]

BBM: AMEN!!!!!! We are smart enough to compare our patient's condition to a list of exclusion criteria. But nooooooo.......

Instead of allowing a physician or nurse who has a caring relationship with the family ask these delicate questions - the law is written so that a total stranger does it. And while i will say there are some wonderful people in the fiedl of organ procurement- I have had more than a few VERY unpleasant experiences with some.

If any of the nurses had asked our family it would have been fine. The answer would still have been no, but we wouldn't have been herded into a cold room and forced to wait from 1am -2am for a stranger to ask for my fathers body. At that point even if there had been any viable organs left I would have said no. It was very upsetting to be treated that way.

 

[Herat]

Without knowing which particular state is being discussed in other upstream threads, here is a link to state regulations and laws:

http://www.organdonor.gov/legislation_micro/

 

[ItsJustaName]

Without knowing which particular state is being discussed in other upstream threads, here is a link to state regulations and laws:

http://www.organdonor.gov/legislation_micro/

But how was I misinformed? I stated that the hospital said it was state law, but that doesnt make it any less awful to be treated like the owner of a cow that was hit by a truck.

 

[Karmady]

In order for this to be stated as fact, we need a link. :tyou:

On Herat's behalf :

Snipped from the 1986 article at the link(I'll see if I can quickly find that actual statute)

Organ transplant officials in California, Oregon and New York, the first three states to pass ''required request'' laws, say donations increased immediately after the bills took effect, even though many hospitals have not completed staff training and procedures for the delicate and emotional new business of arranging to move parts of one human body into another.

http://www.nytimes.com/1986/06/01/us/human-organ-transplants-gain-with-new-state-laws.html

 

[Harmony 2]

re: organ donation
Please make posts that are case specific!! For example, quotes from Jahi's mom or claims about the hospital regarding organ donation. A general discussion thread delving in depth about organ donation can be started in the jury room as Kimster suggested...

 

[ItsJustaName]

My point is that while organ donation is a good thing, a one size fits all donor request policy/law can be very off putting to the family of the deceased. In my case, the hospital did not cause my fathers death. I think he received very adequate care. I like his doctors. I loved most of his nurses. But once we dealt with the OPO, my feelings about the hospital completely changed. It went 100% negative. The treatment was heartless.

I disagree with the state law. There should be some discretion. But the hospital shoudl have had a well trained sensitive person asking, not a oily used car salesman type. At 2am.

Jahi's parents may feel the way they do partially because of being approached about organ donation.

 

[ItsJustaName]

I have one last question, if you all would be so kind as to indulge me and then I promise I'll not bother you anymore. IF anything done in the ICU by the family caused the massive bleeding, which I am thinking lead to the cardiac failure (and I'm specifically thinking about the suctioning that they have publicly stated that they did), if proven, would or could they be held criminally responsible for the child's death? Have you ever heard of any case such as that? And I do mean actions that were not INTENTIONALLY meant to cause harm to the family member, unlike the Munchausen syndrome cases.

I would be most concerned about the grandmother losing her license. I would think that California's Good Samaritan law would shield the rest of the family.

http://www.lawschoolblog.org/californias-new-good-samaritan-law-attempts-to-save-lives/

 

[ItsJustaName]

Oops wrong link for Good Samaritan Law:

http://law.onecle.com/california/health/1799.102.html

 

[BeginnersLuck]

I have one last question, if you all would be so kind as to indulge me and then I promise I'll not bother you anymore. IF anything done in the ICU by the family caused the massive bleeding, which I am thinking lead to the cardiac failure (and I'm specifically thinking about the suctioning that they have publicly stated that they did), if proven, would or could they be held criminally responsible for the child's death? Have you ever heard of any case such as that? And I do mean actions that were not INTENTIONALLY meant to cause harm to the family member, unlike the Munchausen syndrome cases.

Oh no, I don't believe that anything would be a criminal matter. A criminal matter IMO, would have to show that someone deliberately did something to cause harm. Or, they intentionally mean't to cause harm.

 

[popsicle]

I would be most concerned about the grandmother losing her license. I would think that California's Good Samaritan law would shield the rest of the family.

http://www.lawschoolblog.org/californias-new-good-samaritan-law-attempts-to-save-lives/

Oops wrong link for Good Samaritan Law:

http://law.onecle.com/california/health/1799.102.html

no
person who in good faith, and not for compensation, renders emergency
medical or nonmedical care or assistance at the scene of an
emergency shall be liable for civil damages resulting from any act or
omission other than an act or omission constituting gross negligence
or willful or wanton misconduct. The scene of an emergency shall not
include emergency departments and other places where medical care is
usually offered.

 

[nursenelms]

Hello everyone! I have been a bit of a lurker for awhile now.

I am an RN of 15 years, with 5 years as an organ recovery coordinator in Texas. Anyone that thinks organ donation is all about the money or that we are just anxiously awaiting someone to die....that is not the case. When someone is approaching brain death, they are put on our lists to check on daily. After the person is declared brain dead, the OPO (organ procurement organization) is contacted. We have a limited amount of time to ask the family for permission before the organs no longer have maximum function.

We would never, ever approach a family without extreme caution. We all have been specially trained to speak with care and concern and I apologize for the whole field to anyone who has been spoken to about organ donation with carelessness. We would never (at least in my organization) pressure the family to donate. It is your choice, but you will be saving more lives by doing so.

Again, we are not allowed to even approach the family until brain death has been declared.

Thanks!

As a transplant coordinator we never use the word "harvest"....it is organ recovery.

 

[nursebeeme]

It doesnt I suppose but I wondered why Jahi was put back on the vent after they took her off to see if she was breathing. So I found the purpose of this in searching.

After reseaching I found life support is put back on people declared brain dead for the purpose of donating the organs. She was brian dead and she was not breathing.

Why did the hospital put Jahi on life support?

She was put on the vent when she coded.

The vent was shut off for the apnea test but then restarted after that

The vent was not ever shut off again because of the restraining orders.. hope that helps.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

:welcome: nursenelms

 

[Donjeta]

More nonsensical quoting:

An East Coast Catholic group is using the "tragic situation" of Jahi McMath to give the organization a chance to say that faith and science are not at odds here, and in this case, the 13-year-old Oakland girl is dead.

"This is a very tragic case but in the face of death, the Church proclaims that Jesus Christ has won the victory over death," the National Catholic Bioethics Center said Tuesday on its website. "And [Jahi's mother] has the obligation to comfort those who mourn with the sure and certain hope of the resurrection of the dead. We offer our prayers for all who have been so profoundly affected by this tragic event."

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/loca...-Jahi-McMath-With-Jesus-Christ-239314591.html

The bit about Jahi's mother didn't really make sense to me.
http://www.ncbcenter.org/resources/jahi-mcmath-and-catholic-teaching-on-the-determination-of-death
The original article here doesn't say anything about Jahi's mother, they use "she" to refer to the Catholic church (as in the bride of Christ) imo.

 

[TracyLynnS]

More nonsensical quoting:



http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/loca...-Jahi-McMath-With-Jesus-Christ-239314591.html

The bit about Jahi's mother didn't really make sense to me.
http://www.ncbcenter.org/resources/jahi-mcmath-and-catholic-teaching-on-the-determination-of-death
The original article here doesn't say anything about Jahi's mother, they use "she" to refer to the Catholic church (as in the bride of Christ) imo.

Completely agree with you on the intent of the original article. It's obvious that the article refers to the Catholic Church as "she" and not Jahi's mom.

What is Lisa Fernadez (the nbc bay area news article's author) thinking, putting words in their mouths and claiming that Jahi's mother has some kind of obligation to comfort and preach to people. The news station needs to print a retraction or apology, imo.

The source article is obviously saying that it's their (the Church's) obligation to comfort and pray for Jahi, her loved ones, and the people who have been affected by what has happened to Jahi.

Quote from the source article with BBM:

This is a very tragic case but in the face of death, the Church proclaims that Jesus Christ has won the victory over death, and she has the obligation to comfort those who mourn with the sure and certain hope of the resurrection of the dead. We offer our prayers for all who have been so profoundly affected by this tragic event.

 

[reginap]

I found this forum through looking for intelligent and respectful discussion of this case. After lurking and reading all 7 (7!) threads on this topic, I can't remember who said this but I wanted to bring it back up since there's continuing discussion about the ventilator being turned off during the test to confirm brain death.

Someone mentioned that the ventilator would be turned off for "a minute" to check to see if she tried to breathe on her own and then reconnected quickly.

The test report that is posted in the document links here indicates that the ventilator was off for ten minutes during the test and no attempt to breathe was made by Jahi.

 

[Wolfie]

Since there are so many threads here, I might have missed it, but Jahi's biological father has already been involved in a lawsuit against the city, which could be read that they are willing to sue whoever. http://clerkwebsvr1.oaklandnet.com/attachments/14806.pdf

 

[nursebeeme]

I found this forum through looking for intelligent and respectful discussion of this case. After lurking and reading all 7 (7!) threads on this topic, I can't remember who said this but I wanted to bring it back up since there's continuing discussion about the ventilator being turned off during the test to confirm brain death.

Someone mentioned that the ventilator would be turned off for "a minute" to check to see if she tried to breathe on her own and then reconnected quickly.

The test report that is posted in the document links here indicates that the ventilator was off for ten minutes during the test and no attempt to breathe was made by Jahi.

welcome to websleuths!

more info on the apnea test for brain death
(very technical but explains the test in detail)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2824942/

eta: 10 minutes is normal duration for this testing procedure (during the course of which many values are monitored)

 

[txsvicki]

Is everyone approached about organ donation if the deceased isn't too diseased or elderly? Would Jahi's mom have been asked about it?

 

[Donjeta]

It doesnt I suppose but I wondered why Jahi was put back on the vent after they took her off to see if she was breathing. So I found the purpose of this in searching.

After reseaching I found life support is put back on people declared brain dead for the purpose of donating the organs. She was brian dead and she was not breathing.

Why did the hospital put Jahi on life support?

Here's my :twocents: on why hospitals put brain dead people back on life support after the apnea test:

First of all, it's what the apnea test instructions say. You disconnect the ventilator for a while and the connect it back once the test is over or has been aborted. The purpose of the test is not to get the patient's heart to stop, it's just to diagnose whether they're breathing or not. The apnea test may or may not be the last thing that needs to be done before confirming the diagnosis of brain death and you don't want to cause the heart to stop prematurely. You might still wait for the results of the scans to come back, or you need a second doctor to confirm your diagnosis later. And once the diagnosis is done you would probably want to discuss it with your colleagues and the family before doing anything final. Also, the doctors doing the brain death diagnosis aren't the ones who decide whether the brain dead could become an organ donor or not.

In California, it's the law that after the brain death diagnosis the hospital needs to allow a reasonable time for the family to gather and to say their goodbyes, and this is independent of their organ donor status.