Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #7

[Donjeta]

In one of the earlier threads we discussed the cases of brain dead people being maintained for long periods of time. I think that this may be the case of the child who lived for 20 years after clinical brain death.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16970850

J Child Neurol. 2006 Jul;21(7):591-5.
Long survival following bacterial meningitis-associated brain destruction.
Repertinger S, Fitzgibbons WP, Omojola MF, Brumback RA.
Author information
Abstract


This report describes the brain autopsy of a boy who at age 4(1/2) years experienced an episode of fulminant Haemophilus influenzae type b bacterial meningitis, resulting in massive brain destruction and the clinical signs of brain death. However, medical intervention maintained him for an additional two decades. Subsequent autopsy revealed a calcified intracranial spherical structure weighing 750 g and consisting of a calcified shell containing grumous material and cystic spaces with no recognizable neural elements grossly or microscopically. This case represents an example of long survival of brain death with a living body.

 

[rob]

http://news.kron4.com/news/jahi-mcmath-doctor-releases-statement-following-meeting-with-family/

snipped

We want the public to know that the family has not permitted us to discuss the medical situation. We are unable–without the family’s permission–to talk about the medical procedure, background or any of the details that are a part of this tragedy. Details that would provide transparency, openness and provide answers to the public about this situation.

This simple paragraph tells the story. Background and details are the story. Someone previously said that maybe the hospital AND the family knows what really happened to cause this. I truly believe that.

 

[ItsJustaName]

It's not that they won't also pursue medical malpractice, it's that there is a $250K cap on damages for that charge, and Dolan has already stated he is after $33 million......+.

It's all about money. Never forget that.

I'm guessing that he will claim that the McMath's are expressing their religious freedom in thier desire to keep Jahi's corpse on ventilation. Therefore, the court must give an award equal to keeping the body sustained for the next 60 years.

 

[ItsJustaName]

ITA but legally it matters very much. A non-medical person can claim ignorance of the harm they could cause by doing what they saw the RN do. A licensed healthcare provider cannot. It's one thing to go above and beyond your scope of practice in a life and death emergency when nobody qualified is around to do the life saving procedure. That can't be claimed in a hospital where qualified practitioners are a call button away and within eyesight of the patient.

I agree with you, but who would report her? CHO?

 

[popsicle]

ITA but legally it matters very much. A non-medical person can claim ignorance of the harm they could cause by doing what they saw the RN do. A licensed healthcare provider cannot. It's one thing to go above and beyond your scope of practice in a life and death emergency when nobody qualified is around to do the life saving procedure. That can't be claimed in a hospital where qualified practitioners are a call button away and within eyesight of the patient.

Legally, a non-medical person is not protected in this situation either because this emergency happened in a hospital.

 

[K_Z]

No discussion of medical malpractice or stating it won't be pursued adds another piece to the puzzle for me. Adding that to what has/hasn't been said and the anger directed at the chief of peds and not the staff or surgeon tells me something as well. I get the impression that the family and the hospital already know the COD. I don't think that the family will want this made public.

When I was thinking on the lines of the possibility of CHO reaching some sort of financial agreement in court, I was thinking about this being done to get them on their way, so to speak. Not that they were admitting or accepting liability. Of course, speculation there was anything monetary provided, is just speculation on my part.

I completely agree with this observation, BL. I have been thinking about that off and on for a while, revisiting the comments of the hospital, in addition to the family and attorney.

I have listened carefully to what the family has said, and they have NOT said anything went wrong intraoperatively. They have not said anything went wrong in PACU, or named the PACU nurse/s as responsible. They have not named the surgeon, nor named any specific PICU nurse as who they hold responsible. Only "the hospital", and Durand, the chief of pedes.

I have thought about the mediation meeting, and the outcome. The hospital appeared content to release to the coroner, and the coroner appears to have been fairly rapidly agreeable to releasing Jahi's body to the family.

"The hospital" has not released any statements to the effect that "we are committed to getting to the truth of what happened". No back peddling, pre-emptive hyperbole about the stellar qualifications of the surgeons, and the high level of competence and experience of the nursing staff.

All of that persuades me that there is a very good chance that COD is known, with pretty good certainty. The hospital seems unusually stoic, and quietly confident (the abrasive Sam Singer is the one and only exception).

I am, of course, quite interested in learning what happened, from a professional perspective. I think it will eventually come out, but it may be a couple years. I am hopeful that the hospital and staff will be shown to have acted properly. I do think the focus of the inevitable wrongful death claim will be that Jahi never should have been offered the surgery, and that the mother didn't receive thorough informed consent. I believe the claim will be that the mother was strong armed into agreeing, and that she was unable to understand all of the issues thoroughly enough to give informed consent. I don't think it will hold up, if they go that route, but I think this will be claimed.

I do think that the family will end up with several million dollars before the legal processes are over. Whether by settlement, to decrease publicity for the hospital, or awarded by sympathetic jurors if it ever gets to trial.

 

[Donjeta]

Yes...somehow, for most of the time in all this the family has seemed angrier at the people who have SAID that Jahi is dead, than the people who caused her death, or who could be perceived to have caused it (even if it was not directly their fault), or who could possibly have prevented it but failed to do so. (And by death I mean the brain death, not the disconnecting the ventilator part.)

 

[kaRN]

Legally, a non-medical person is not protected in this situation either because this emergency happened in a hospital.

True but IMO it's unlikely the hospital would take legal action unless that non-medical person harmed someone other than their own loved one.

Family centered care will never be the same after this case and it's a real shame because hospitalized kids need their families and most families are eager to cooperate and comply.

 

[Morag]

Really? It's the hospital's fault if a disruptive group takes over the recovery room and ICU? lol No problem with the cretins doing the taking over, though? Nothing like taking away ANY personal responsibility. That's the reason we're here in the first place. jmo

That's not what I said. I said-"It's the hospital's fault if the problem is not contained."

 

[Morag]

You're personally familiar with CHO? Have you been in the PICU? What's the set up?

Visitor Identification
Everyone visiting our medical center is required to check in at the Ambassadors' Desk in the entry lobby. The ambassador is there to help direct you and provide any information you may need about the hospital. He or she will issue you a color-coded badge so you can find the appropriate floor/s, and will quickly screen little ones for colds and other contagious illnesses. We have a special sticker for kids to wear after screening.

 

[kaRN]

------
Hi KaRN, it's discussed in the earlier pages. She is NOT an RN. She is either an LPN or an NA..check it out. My son was a basilar artery stroke hit part of brain stem, we never suctioned him, Nurse only..They (family) quote suctioning in the beginning. I'm not medical but that thing could well pull off clots, maybe more. :loveyou:

Thanks Nore! :seeya: She's an LVN which is Cali's version of an NA or LPN. She's not qualified to suction but would have been trained to understand the rationale as to why she wasn't qualified.
How is your son now? Praying he's well!!! This thread is moving so fast it's hard to keep up. You're totally right though about the clots, even sutures or a graft if one was used. Great to see you Nore! happy New Year friend!

 

[popsicle]

Mari Fagel ‏@MariFagel 2m
On tmw's Justice is Served, we'll interview Bob Pack, a CA man who lost 2 children to medical negligence & is pushing for reform #JahiMcMath

On tmw's Justice is Served, we'll discuss whether Oakland hospital had a financial motive behind push to turn off life support #JahiMcMath

Mari Fagel ‏@MariFagel 5m
Tune into an all-new season of Justice is Served on @bhlonline Fridays 9 am PST, starting tmw, we'll be discussing #JahiMcMath case & more

Mari Fagel
@MariFagel
Legal News reporter, host & analyst / Host Justice is Served on @bhlonline / Host @WildAboutTrial @Spreecast w/ @reporterjon / Creator http://YourLegalLady.com

MariFagel.com

 

[kaRN]

That's not what I said. I said-"It's the hospital's fault if the problem is not contained."

You're right Morag.

 

[seattlechiquita]

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/12/22/us/judge-orders-girl-be-kept-on-ventilator.html?from=health

With her family and hospital staff members trying to help and comfort her, Jahi bled profusely for the next few hours and then went into cardiac arrest, her mother said.

bbm It appears that this went on for longer then I had previously thought. Hours?

Remember that is the family and media version of the story. CHO is not allowed to comment on any of what really went down --- all is speculation.

 

[Sonya610]

Which brings to mind another question. If Jahi is not in California, wouldn't she need to be embalmed before returning to Ca? My stepfather died in Fl, but the funeral was in NJ. He had no autopsy, as they knew the cause of death, but he did have to be embalmed to travel out of state.

I believe the autopsy has to be done by the corner that issued the death certificate, if that is the case they definitely would NOT embalm her for the flight back.

They would probably pack her in ice or some such thing and make the flight quick.

 

[swilla2]

To clarify! LVN and LPN are the same..they are NOT nurses aides or nurses assistants. They are LICENSED vocational/practical nurses. They are trained at a vocational college or possibly a community college. They have a technical diploma. Not a "degree" as an RN does.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk

 

[scmom]

LVN information in California.
http://www.bvnpt.ca.gov/licensing/licensed_vocational_nurses.shtml
http://www.bvnpt.ca.gov/summary_vn.shtml

 

[Karmady]

Visitor Identification
Everyone visiting our medical center is required to check in at the Ambassadors' Desk in the entry lobby. The ambassador is there to help direct you and provide any information you may need about the hospital. He or she will issue you a color-coded badge so you can find the appropriate floor/s, and will quickly screen little ones for colds and other contagious illnesses. We have a special sticker for kids to wear after screening.

Okay. Thanks. It wasn't linked or referenced to the hospital website, so I thought you might know about that personally, and other things about CHO as well. I don't really care about the badges. I was hoping you knew how the PICU was configured. Although it's interesting that the family felt the badges were discriminatory/punitive since they are hospital policy...per Uncle O in the msm iirc.

 

[Karmady]

That's not what I said. I said-"It's the hospital's fault if the problem is not contained."

I guess I define fault differently than others. If I'm being disruptive in a hospital, it's my fault regardless of who fails to contain me. jmo

 

[Cubby]

Nurses told her "it was normal," according to her attorney's account. They gave Winkfield a container to capture the copious amounts of blood coming from her girl's mouth and nose. Winkfield asked for a doctor, but was only given a bigger container and a suction device.

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking...izations-jahis-condition-ignites-insane-legal

I doubt that any ICU nurse would tell a parent to use a suctioning device on a patient.

Not trying to be argumentative, but I am eondering who "they" are when referring to who gave NW the suction device. They could be anyone, including her family members.