Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #8

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  • #201
Is the law suit still relevant? I thought it became moot after they had the settlement conference, moved Jahi out of CHO and got their feeding tubes. Is there any point in pursuing the discrimination angle? I wouldn't think that any courts want to touch the huge can of worms that would open if it was successfully argued that people with death certificates are eligible for the same things people with disabilities are eligible for.
 
  • #202
Is the law suit still relevant? I thought it became moot after they had the settlement conference, moved Jahi out of CHO and got their feeding tubes. Is there any point in pursuing the discrimination angle? I wouldn't think that any courts want to touch the huge can of worms that would open if it was successfully argued that people with death certificates are eligible for the same things people with disabilities are eligible for.

Not moot, imo. The settlement conference was just for TRO issues -- emergent relief to maintain the status quo pending the outcome of the litigation. As I understand it, the parents are asserting their own rights, not those of Jahi. So I think the question of mootness or standing would arise, if at all, after her heart stops. Even then, I'm not sure they can't still assert their rights about what happened prior to her death. Haven't thought that through completely, though.

However, I have a vague recollection that there's a standing doctrine that operates where the nature of the issue is such that it might never be litigated if someone didn't have standing even after the event at issue has taken place. Can't remember what it's called off the top of my head. I'll see if I can find a link.


all jmo

eta: not the link I was looking for, but this discusses injunctive relief and mootness

~snip

Generally, a case is not moot so long as the plaintiff continues to have an injury for which the court can award relief, even if entitlement to the primary relief has been mooted and what remains is small./6/ Put differently, the presence of a “collateral” injury is an exception to mootness./7/ As a result, distinguishing claims for injunctive relief from claims for damages is important. Because damage claims seek compensation for past harm, they cannot become moot./8/ Short of paying plaintiff the damages sought, a defendant can do little to moot a damage claim. The virtual impossibility that unpaid damage claims can become moot gives rise to a technique for avoiding mootness: plead a claim for damages if the claim has a reasonable basis./9/ Although later events may moot the claim for injunctive relief, the claim for damages presents an opportunity to determine the legality of the conduct at issue./10/ An interest in attorney fees, however, will not save a case involving nothing more from mootness./11/ Similarly, in considering mootness, it is important to distinguish between claims for different forms of injunctive relief. For example, claims for retroactive injunctive relief are not moot simply because claims for prospective relief are. The past injury has not been remedied.

http://federalpracticemanual.org/node/21

HA...found it in the same link:

3.3.B.2. Conduct Capable of Repetition Yet Evading Review

Challenges to recurrent conduct of short duration often avoid mootness under the exception for acts “capable of repetition yet evading review.” Conduct is capable of repetition but evading review when (1) the duration of the challenged action is too short to be litigated fully before the cessation or expiration of the challenged conduct, and (2) the plaintiff is reasonably expected to be subject to the same action in the future./30/ Determining whether this exception applies therefore requires an assessment of the probability of repetition or recurrence, the risk that repeated harm will be of sufficiently short duration so as to evade review and remedy, and the extent to which repetition may affect the plaintiff./31/

This branch of the mootness doctrine frequently overlaps with voluntary cessation. The choice between the two is significant because of the differing burdens. The defendant has the heavy burden of showing that voluntary cessation of unlawful conduct moots a case, while the plaintiff has the burden of showing that conduct is capable of repetition yet evading review./32/

First, actions evade review when they are “too short to be fully litigated prior to cessation or expiration.”/33/ The question is whether the action is inherently of brief duration or whether it can be reviewed in sufficient time for the plaintiff to obtain a meaningful remedy if she prevails./34/ Therefore, if circumstances suggest that a possible recurrence of challenged conduct could be litigated should it arise, courts decline to invoke the exception. Such circumstances include the possible use of motions for preliminary injunction, emergency stays, and expedited appeals. Should a plaintiff fail to attempt to avail itself of these procedural opportunities, courts are disinclined to regard the matter as evading review./35/ Advocates are, therefore, advised first to pursue these avenues for relief when appropriate.

Second, the Supreme Court has been inconsistent in its treatment of the requirement that the conduct be shown to be capable of repetition; the Court wavered between the more stringent requirement of a “demonstrated probability” and the less stringent requirement of a “reasonable expectation” of repetition./36/ In City of Los Angeles v. Lyons, a challenge to a city policy of using choke holds to subdue suspected criminals, the Court held that a generalized showing that conduct might recur was not sufficient to trigger the exception./37/ The Court stated that the “doctrine applies only in exceptional situations, and generally only in those cases in which the named plaintiff can make a reasonable showing that he will again be subjected to the alleged illegality.”/38/

However, in Honig v. Doe, the Court limited Lyons./39/ The Court stated that Lyons held only that the Court was “unwilling to assume that the party seeking relief will repeat the type of misconduct that would once again place him or her at risk of that injury.”/40/ The Court held that a “reasonable expectation” of recurrence was sufficient to overcome a suggestion of mootness: “in numerous cases ... we have found controversies capable of repetition based on expectations that, while reasonable, were hardly demonstrably probable.”/41/ Such a reasonable expectation may be found in the history of the plaintiff’s relationship with the defendant./42/

Third, the plaintiff must show that he, rather than simply anyone, “will again be subjected to the alleged illegality.”/43/ Despite this restrictive language, the Court has invoked the exception in circumstances in which the probability of recurrence to the plaintiff is not obvious. Litigation involving the regulation of abortion,/44/ elections,/45/ and press access to trials/46/ has proceeded despite claims of mootness without any apparent basis for a finding of probable recurrence./47/ The public importance of the issue may explain the more relaxed approach in these narrow categories of cases./48/ At the same time, the nature of the recurrent action need not be exactly the same as the first, at least in as-applied election law cases./49/
 
  • #203
  • #204
The document is dated 12/30. I don't think this conference is applicable because the issues at hand were resolved since then.

Anyone?

That is when the action was filed, I believe. Notice of case management is dated 1/6/14.
 
  • #205
B/I/UBM ... those are your keywords that make that case totally not the same as JM ... she has ZERO brain waves because she has no blood flow to her brain, and her brain stem is also dead. She is not in coma medically induced or otherwise.

I know she isn't in a coma.

But clearly you didn't read the whole article about Steven Thorpe. He was brain dead too according his doctors.

Steven was rushed to hospital and surgeons performed a craniotomy to help alleviate any swelling on his brain.

But despite the operation being successful, brain scans failed to detect any electrical pulses and he was declared brain dead.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/h...teen-declared-brain-dead-by-four-doctors.html

Could of course be that Stephens' doctors were mistaken and he wasn't completely brain dead.

I would guess that reversible and irreversible brain damage lies very close to each other? Maybe there is a grey area where it isn't very clear cut?

I can understand that Jahi's parents wanted a second opinion and that doctors do more for her, or give her more time.
 
  • #206
That is when the action was filed, I believe. Notice of case management is dated 1/6/14.

Yes. Look at the document numbers and the dates filed for doc 9 and doc 19. Doc 9 (filed in december) is part of Doc 19 filed on 1/6/14.
 
  • #207
I know she isn't in a coma.

But clearly you didn't read the whole article about Steven Thorpe. He was brain dead too according his doctors.

Steven was rushed to hospital and surgeons performed a craniotomy to help alleviate any swelling on his brain.

But despite the operation being successful, brain scans failed to detect any electrical pulses and he was declared brain dead.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/h...teen-declared-brain-dead-by-four-doctors.html

Could of course be that Stephens' doctors were mistaken and he wasn't completely brain dead.

I would guess that reversible and irreversible brain damage lies very close to each other? Maybe there is a grey area where it isn't very clear cut?

I can understand that Jahi's parents wanted a second opinion and that doctors do more for her, or give her more time.

I don't understand. The entire article except for that one sentence indicates he was in a coma. The sentence does not quote any doctors. Improper use of words perhaps?
 
  • #208
I know she isn't in a coma.

But clearly you didn't read the whole article about Steven Thorpe. He was brain dead too according his doctors.

Steven was rushed to hospital and surgeons performed a craniotomy to help alleviate any swelling on his brain.

But despite the operation being successful, brain scans failed to detect any electrical pulses and he was declared brain dead.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/h...teen-declared-brain-dead-by-four-doctors.html

Could of course be that Stephens' doctors were mistaken and he wasn't completely brain dead.

I would guess that reversible and irreversible brain damage lies very close to each other? Maybe there is a grey area where it isn't very clear cut?

I can understand that Jahi's parents wanted a second opinion and that doctors do more for her, or give her more time.

Of course. I would want a 2nd and 3rd opinion if it were my child. I think we all would. But after the 3rd, 4th , 5th doctor declares the child brain dead, and beyond any help, whatsoever...then what? It cannot go on forever. Sadly.
 
  • #209
I don't understand. The entire article except for that one sentence indicates he was in a coma. The sentence does not quote any doctors. Improper use of words perhaps?

Rather like "routine tonsillectomy?" I'd have to know a lot more than a sentence from a Telegraph article to form an opinion about that case.

Also, I recall from the wiki link posted here that the UK does NOT require whole brain death for a declaration of brain death. So, if true, that may be a critical distinction even if that was the actual initial dx.

jmo
 
  • #210
I know she isn't in a coma.

But clearly you didn't read the whole article about Steven Thorpe. He was brain dead too according his doctors.

Steven was rushed to hospital and surgeons performed a craniotomy to help alleviate any swelling on his brain.

But despite the operation being successful, brain scans failed to detect any electrical pulses and he was declared brain dead.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/h...teen-declared-brain-dead-by-four-doctors.html

Could of course be that Stephens' doctors were mistaken and he wasn't completely brain dead.

I would guess that reversible and irreversible brain damage lies very close to each other? Maybe there is a grey area where it isn't very clear cut?

I can understand that Jahi's parents wanted a second opinion and that doctors do more for her, or give her more time.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/a...dead-FOUR-doctors-makes-miracle-recovery.html


The boy who came back from the dead: Experts said car crash teen was beyond hope. His parents disagreed
Steven Thorpe awoke from 2-week coma after car crash that killed a man
They were told there was no chance of their son surviving after he suffered devastating injuries in a car crash.
A neurosurgeon found faint signs of brain activity and two weeks later, Steven woke from his coma. Within seven weeks, he had left hospital.

Accountant Mr Thorpe, 51, contacted private GP Julia Piper, known for her work in traditional and alternative medicines. Moved by their story, she asked a neurosurgeon whom she knew to visit Steven at University Hospital in Coventry.

Incredibly, he concluded that Steven was not brain dead and that there was still a slim chance of recovery.

Doctors agreed to try to bring Steven out of his chemically-induced coma to see if he could survive. Two weeks later, he woke up.

JMO, the main point here is that Steven was in a medically induced coma when/if he was declared brain dead. The guidelines say that you can't properly diagnose brain death if you've knocked them out with drugs (p. 1914). Jahi was not on any sedatives when Dr. Fisher examined her.

http://www.neurology.org/content/74/23/1911.full.pdf+html
 
  • #211
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/a...dead-FOUR-doctors-makes-miracle-recovery.html







JMO, the main point here is that Steven was in a medically induced coma when/if he was declared brain dead. The guidelines say that you can't properly diagnose brain death if you've knocked them out with drugs (p. 1914). Jahi was not on any sedatives when Dr. Fisher examined her.

http://www.neurology.org/content/74/23/1911.full.pdf+html

That's what it sounds like to me as well. He was in medically incuded coma, presumably pumped up full of drugs. This case is out of UK.
Maybe they should re-examine what they are doing when they diagnose brain death.
 
  • #212
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/a...dead-FOUR-doctors-makes-miracle-recovery.html


JMO, the main point here is that Steven was in a medically induced coma when/if he was declared brain dead. The guidelines say that you can't properly diagnose brain death if you've knocked them out with drugs (p. 1914). Jahi was not on any sedatives when Dr. Fisher examined her.

http://www.neurology.org/content/74/23/1911.full.pdf+html

Thank you Donjeta, and other who weighed in.

My guess would also be that he wasn't really brain dead. But would I bank on it? No. From what I learned most things in life (and death) are not as clear cut as we want them to be. There are usually grey areas, and medicine is famous for them, that are open to interpretation, or where the body behaves in unexpected and/or unpredicted manners. Someone upthread pointed out that even when a person is declared brain dead there always remains minimal electrical activity in the brain. What if this minimal activity is by some doctors dismissed as "not important because normal in a brain dead person" and by another interpreted as "a tiny chance of recovery" as was said in Stephen's case?

There is no comprehensive long-term study on brain dead persons that are kept artificially "alive", because these cases are so rare. What if one in hundred would come back after weeks, months, despite it being viewed as impossible? Many here will roll their eyes and insist "No it's not possible!" but we don't know that. It has never been really studied.
 
  • #213
How many doctors examined Jahi for brain waves besides the two CHO doctors?
 
  • #214
Thank you Donjeta, and other who weighed in.



My guess would also be that he wasn't really brain dead. But would I bank on it? No. From what I learned most things in life (and death) are not as clear cut as we want them to be. There are usually grey areas, and medicine is famous for them, that are open to interpretation, or where the body behaves in unexpected and/or unpredicted manners. Someone upthread pointed out that even when a person is declared brain dead there always remains minimal electrical activity in the brain. What if this minimal activity is by some doctors dismissed as "not important because normal in a brain dead person" and by another interpreted as "a tiny chance of recovery" as was said in Stephen's case?



There is no comprehensive long-term study on brain dead persons that are kept artificially "alive", because these cases are so rare. What if one in hundred would come back after weeks, months, despite it being viewed as impossible? Many here will roll their eyes and insist "No it's not possible!" but we don't know that. It has never been really studied.


More concern IMO is the possible number of people whose lives were cut short when their families agreed to donate their organs under similar circumstances as the young man in the above article.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
  • #215
Thank you Donjeta, and other who weighed in.

My guess would also be that he wasn't really brain dead. But would I bank on it? No. From what I learned most things in life (and death) are not as clear cut as we want them to be. There are usually grey areas, and medicine is famous for them, that are open to interpretation, or where the body behaves in unexpected and/or unpredicted manners. Someone upthread pointed out that even when a person is declared brain dead there always remains minimal electrical activity in the brain. What if this minimal activity is by some doctors dismissed as "not important because normal in a brain dead person" and by another interpreted as "a tiny chance of recovery" as was said in Stephen's case?

There is no comprehensive long-term study on brain dead persons that are kept artificially "alive", because these cases are so rare. What if one in hundred would come back after weeks, months, despite it being viewed as impossible? Many here will roll their eyes and insist "No it's not possible!" but we don't know that. It has never been really studied.

I posted a Japanese study way back toward the beginning of this discussion. I have looked and looked and can't find it now. Sigh!

The Japanese were one of the last to adopt brain death as death.

I will keep trying to look for that study.

In order to research all these stories that keep circulating year after year on the internet, we would need more information. Some are not in the US, so we would need to research the criteria that is used in other countries. Some are old and the criteria in determining brain death has changed since then.

We would also need to see the medical records to know if these people were actually brain dead and what criteria was used to determine that.
 
  • #216
Thank you Donjeta, and other who weighed in.

My guess would also be that he wasn't really brain dead. But would I bank on it? No. From what I learned most things in life (and death) are not as clear cut as we want them to be. There are usually grey areas, and medicine is famous for them, that are open to interpretation, or where the body behaves in unexpected and/or unpredicted manners. Someone upthread pointed out that even when a person is declared brain dead there always remains minimal electrical activity in the brain. What if this minimal activity is by some doctors dismissed as "not important because normal in a brain dead person" and by another interpreted as "a tiny chance of recovery" as was said in Stephen's case?

There is no comprehensive long-term study on brain dead persons that are kept artificially "alive", because these cases are so rare. What if one in hundred would come back after weeks, months, despite it being viewed as impossible? Many here will roll their eyes and insist "No it's not possible!" but we don't know that. It has never been really studied.


JMO but if there was even one case of recovery in a person who was correctly diagnosed to have been without cerebral blood flow for weeks, like Jahi appears to have been, then everything we think we know about neurology would be wrong.

There is a lot of uncertainty and unknown factors in medicine that leads to surprises which are called miracles if they're good and catastrophic complications if they're bad. But it is a pretty well established fact that brain cells need circulation if there is to be any healing after an injury.
 
  • #217
  • #218
More concern IMO is the possible number of people whose lives were cut short when their families agreed to donate their organs under similar circumstances as the young man in the above article.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sort of parallel to that would be the number of families who NOW may wonder if their agreement to donate organs from their loved ones who were in similar circumstances to that young man may have caused those lives to be cut short. Even the shadow of a doubt would be heart-wrenching, jmo.
 
  • #219

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Just a comment on this page, Dr. Brynes. He claims the ventilator only breathes in, person must breathe out on his/her own. That is not true. My son was on a ventilator twice. Both times the ventilator did all the breathing. The second time he WAS breathing on his own but had pneumonia.The Doctor put him on so to keep it easier breathing. I'm sorry but that claim is stupid. What the he(( good would a ventilator be if patient must breathe out on their own!!!
IMO..:seeya:

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I hope I can explain myself. The young man in England was not brain dead, dont care what they say. No one can induce a coma in a dead brain. A coma puts the brain "to sleep" not dead. No dead brain has ever come back to life. No one mentions the Doctors. The hospital I believe cannot do anything unless your Doctor agrees. That is except for gross mistakes where a hospital could possibly take over for ahem Doctor. I had this happen to me!!
 
  • #220
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