Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #8

[Donjeta]

He's trying to push everybody's buttons.

He's appealing to the pro-life people: OMG, if the hospital is not forced to feed this dead child she will starve to death - it's murder!

He's appealing to the pro-choice people: OMG, if these parents are deprived of the right to make the choice whether their child is alive or dead, thousands of pregnant women will be deprived of their right to have an abortion!

He's appealing to the anti-government people: OMG, the state can't say that somebody is dead, it's an obscene government intrusion into our privacy!

He's appealing to the patriotic: y'all love the Constitution, don't you? If these parents aren't allowed to insert tubes in their dead child it's a violation of the First and Fourth and Fourteenth Amendment, so it's clear to see that the deceased need surgery. It's the constitutional right of every American! So there!

He's appealing to the religious: This family believes in God and God can perform miracles so if you don't think that the brain dead should receive eternal ICU care why would you even celebrate Christmas?

He's appealing to ethnic tensions: This family is black and I'm white so if you think we're wrong you're racist.

He's appealing to the conspiracy theorists: This big bad hospital killed this child and now they're trying to kill her again and it's all because they want to save money and kill people for their organs.

He's appealing to the sympathetic souls: This family saw their child bleed to death and nobody cared and then some nasty people said unkind things to them so it stands to reason that this child is not dead.

He's thrown in everything but the kitchen sink and I've no doubt that it will follow soon.

 

[Caffeinatedkat]

my grandma said she saw something on HLN where a guy was brain dead but they pumped him full of fish oil and he woke up.. honestly I was watching the Broncos game and not really paying attention to her lol but I was thinking about it this morning and now I wonder where she got this info..

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Today is 41 days since Jahi died on December 12th.

I honestly believed that this would have ended by now and that Jahi would have been laid to rest. The longer that this misguided family continues to resist the inevitable, the harder it will be for them to cope with Jahi's passing when her heart fails. :rose:

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I honestly believed that this would have ended by now and that Jahi would have been laid to rest. The longer that this misguided family continues to resist the inevitable, the harder it will be for them to cope with Jahi's passing when her heart fails. :rose:

Yes, Because she is dead. Really. They can not accept that and so they are going to keep her body functioning on machines and when that fails, they will want life saving measures for an already dead child.

It is really sad. This is where I hope and pray that my family would shake me and say.. IT is over.. Let her be in peace.

 

[kaki]

I honestly believed that this would have ended by now and that Jahi would have been laid to rest. The longer that this misguided family continues to resist the inevitable, the harder it will be for them to cope with Jahi's passing when her heart fails. :rose:

How do we really know that it hasnt already ended? Wouldnt that be something if we found out Jahis heart stopped the night they took her from CHO? Nothing would surprise me with this crazy story.

 

[Sedonia Sunset]

I suspect that when the family finally accepts and is willing to ADMIT that Jahi is dead, they will quietly do what they have to do as far as the coroner is concerned, and then have her buried or cremated in private (I doubt an open casket is an option at this point). THEN they will have a lavish memorial for her.

Once the coroner's office does an autopsy on the body, I think it will become public knowledge that the family has given up the ghost, so to speak, but the family MAY be able to have enough time to handle the final disposition of Jahi's body before it actually hits the news.

 

[K_Z]

He's trying to push everybody's buttons.

He's appealing to the pro-life people: OMG, if the hospital is not forced to feed this dead child she will starve to death - it's murder!

He's appealing to the pro-choice people: OMG, if these parents are deprived of the right to make the choice whether their child is alive or dead, thousands of pregnant women will be deprived of their right to have an abortion!

He's appealing to the anti-government people: OMG, the state can't say that somebody is dead, it's an obscene government intrusion into our privacy!

He's appealing to the patriotic: y'all love the Constitution, don't you? If these parents aren't allowed to insert tubes in their dead child it's a violation of the First and Fourth and Fourteenth Amendment, so it's clear to see that the deceased need surgery. It's the constitutional right of every American! So there!

He's appealing to the religious: This family believes in God and God can perform miracles so if you don't think that the brain dead should receive eternal ICU care why would you even celebrate Christmas?

He's appealing to ethnic tensions: This family is black and I'm white so if you think we're wrong you're racist.

He's appealing to the conspiracy theorists: This big bad hospital killed this child and now they're trying to kill her again and it's all because they want to save money and kill people for their organs.

He's appealing to the sympathetic souls: This family saw their child bleed to death and nobody cared and then some nasty people said unkind things to them so it stands to reason that this child is not dead.

He's thrown in everything but the kitchen sink and I've no doubt that it will follow soon.

Oh my-- you have identified and verbalized these observations so EXCELLENTLY!

Would you mind terribly if we nominated you to be a Supreme Court Justice? Mayor? President? Supreme allied commander of the Universe?

:judge:

:tyou:

 

[Isabelle]

Interesting article:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/icij/tissue-donation_b_1676671.html

 

[BeginnersLuck]

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/comm...-death-20140121,0,5121800.story#axzz2qzqCYamT

In New Jersey and New York, for example, there is accommodation for those who do not accept "brain death" as the appropriate criterion. According to New Jersey law, "the death of an individual shall not be declared upon the basis of neurological criteria … when such a declaration would violate the personal religious beliefs or moral convictions of that individual." The McMath family's position isn't ridiculous or unheard of. There would have been no legal battle if Jahi had had her tonsils out in New Jersey.

Note the above statement, where is states it would violate the personal religious beleifs or moral convictions of that individual.

Here is New Jersey law:

26:6A-5. Death not declared in violation of individual's religious beliefs The death of an individual shall not be declared upon the basis of neurological criteria pursuant to sections 3 and 4 of this act when the licensed physician authorized to declare death, has reason to believe, on the basis of information in the individual's available medical records, or information provided by a member of the individual's family or any other person knowledgeable about the individual's personal religious beliefs that such a declaration would violate the personal religious beliefs of the individual. In these cases, death shall be declared, and the time of death fixed, solely upon the basis of cardio-respiratory criteria pursuant to section 2 of this act. L.1991,c.90,s.5.

I do not see anything in the New Jersey law pertaining to "moral beliefs" only religion.

Here is the part in New Jersey law that discusses insurance and providing medical care. If anyone has found this to be amended, please let me know. I had a hard time finding the current New Jersey statutes.

26:6A-7. Obligations of insurance providers unchanged Changes in pre-existing criteria for the declaration of death effectuated by the legal recognition of modern neurological criteria shall not in any manner affect, impair or modify the terms of, or rights or obligations created under, any existing policy of health insurance, life insurance or annuity, or governmental benefits program. No health care practitioner or other health care provider, and no health service plan, insurer, or governmental authority, shall deny coverage or exclude from the benefits of service any individual solely because of that individual's personal religious beliefs regarding the application of neurological criteria for declaring death. L.1991,c.90,s.7.

He also says the below, which sounds like he is mixing in Byrne language to me. What does he mean about the "limits of brain death"?

And the rush to abrogate Nailah and Jahi's constitutional rights is as reprehensible as the widespread ignorance about the limits of "brain death." These rights include the 1st Amendment right to freedom of expression of religion, and the 4th and 14th amendment rights to privacy and personal liberty.

First amendment right to freedom of expression of religion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_...States_Constitution#Free_exercise_of_religion

"Freedom of religion means freedom to hold an opinion or belief, but not to take action in violation of social duties or subversive to good order,"

So is he trying to say that the state law concerning brain death criteria, is infringing on her freedom to hold an opinion or belief based on her religion. It seems like we could go a long way here from an opinion or belief to actually carrying out that opinion or belief.

He notes the 4th amendment right to privacy
http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/fourth_amendment
I'm trying to figure out what he is talking about with her 4th amendment right. Is it because people have expressed in SM, that someone should be monitoring what they are doing with Jahi's body? Is he saying we should be allowed to take the dead and do with what we please? Or, even a sick relative for that matter. Has someone called and ask for a well check on the family? Because Jahi is not an adult, she is the property of her mother? I'm confused.

He also notes the 14th amendment:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/amendmentxiv

Is he actually considering filing a lawsuit based on her constitutional rights? Or, is he just scolding the public that have been exercising their freedom of speech?

Those who attack Nailah's decision and who are "pro-choice" on the issue of abortion should think hard about the fallout from their insistence that the family's personal and private decision about when life ends can and should be overridden by doctors or the state. The same rights that support the choice made by Nailah also support contraceptive rights and abortion rights.

Above he must be talking about our human rights.
Human rights - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
More specifically:
The right to life
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights#Right_to_life

So is that some kind of idle threat towards those that he is going to challenge the laws that already exist? This is nothing new. This is an ongoing battle by "pro-life" organizations. Some are extreme though. Going as far as wanting to take away birth control and wanting to take away the right to let our loved ones go, even when they are clearly suffering or when they are a shell being kept above ground, because we have modern technology to do so. That technology is so advanced that the "illusion" of life can be preserved for an indefinite period of time. As technology continues to advance, so will the ability to maintain the shell of the body for longer and longer. When does it end? When is dead, dead, dead, dead.

eta: please take my comments that I added with the links, with a grain of salt. The legalities are way above my head and I was merely trying to figure out where he was coming from by referring to rights. Donjeta says it perfectly, in her post above mine.

 

[al66pine]

Oh my-- you have identified and verbalized these observations so EXCELLENTLY!

Would you mind terribly if we nominated you to be a Supreme Court Justice? Mayor? President? Supreme allied commander of the Universe?

:judge:

:tyou:

Seconding the motion to elect Donjeta to all the above offices.
And moving that K_Z be nominated for next election of same offices.

And I'll put some other W/S'ers' names up for related offices.
:seeya:

 

[popsicle]

I don't remember previously seeing Dolan's cease and desist order sent to CHO on 12/17. Why would he post it on his website?

http://www.cbdlaw.com/Letter-to-CHO.PDF.pagespeed.ce.HshywEUiZF.pdf

 

[Softail]

I don't remember previously seeing Dolan's cease and desist order sent to CHO on 12/17. Why would he post it on his website?http://www.cbdlaw.com/Letter-to-CHO.PDF.pagespeed.ce.HshywEUiZF.pdf

:dunno: Especially when he refers to Jahi's life as "his life". Refers to Ms. Winkfield's child as her "son" several times.

Maybe he is proud of himself. :dunno: :waitasec:

 

[Melanie]

Re: CHO nurse/s on duty during crisis, TIA …

1. How many CHO nurses typically would have been right there/nearby in the PICU?

[If PICU had 1:1 ratio and JM was in room 10, can we assume there were
at least 10 nurses in the immediate area? 20 nurses if rooms were double occupancy?]
​

2. If nurse/s was/were on a shift change, as stated by the JM family, at the time of the crisis
wouldn’t that mean there would have been two nurses right there or nearby as one would have been
updating the other about the status of the patient in that 1 nurse to 1 patient ratio area?

I've been hospitalized several times, unfortunately. In MY experience only, when there was a shift change, the nurse leaving would (say 9 x out of 10) bring in the new nurse to let me know. This may just be the policy at the hospital I go to (I only go to Scripps La Jolla, which is very good). I'm sure things may be different in ICU (as I was under anyway), but they would let my hubby know. Same when I had my son, my tubal pg, my gallbladder removed, and my hysterectomy (eek).

I just can't imagine that Jahi would be without any nursing support in an ICU, regardless of shift change. One doesn't walk off without a replacement.

Just my opinion/experience.

Thanks,

Mel

 

[Melanie]

How do we really know that it hasnt already ended? Wouldnt that be something if we found out Jahis heart stopped the night they took her from CHO? Nothing would surprise me with this crazy story.

You may be right, because all I hear right now is crickets. Even the media is quiet on the home front. I just pray they are not trying to feed a brain dead body, or that she's decomposing. The last I heard (and this was weeks ago) was her bowels and gut were sloughing off - and that's just horrible.

This is on one of the dr's report links upthread.

I certainly hope she's RIP and her family has let her go.

MOO

Mel

 

[Melanie]

my grandma said she saw something on HLN where a guy was brain dead but they pumped him full of fish oil and he woke up.. honestly I was watching the Broncos game and not really paying attention to her lol but I was thinking about it this morning and now I wonder where she got this info..

The teenager your grandma was talking about was in a coma, with serious brain injuries (but wasn't brain dead). He did come out of the coma, and the fish oil appeared to help in his brain recovery.

Source: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...t-clinically-dead-paramedics-revived-him.html

 

[BeginnersLuck]

I don't remember previously seeing Dolan's cease and desist order sent to CHO on 12/17. Why would he post it on his website?

http://www.cbdlaw.com/Letter-to-CHO.PDF.pagespeed.ce.HshywEUiZF.pdf

In his cease and desist letter, he refers to Dority v. Superior Court:

http://law.justia.com/cases/california/calapp3d/145/273.html

Reading about that case, sheds light on some of the actions that he took with Jahi's.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

The teenager your grandma was talking about was in a coma, with serious brain injuries (but wasn't brain dead). He did come out of the coma, and the fish oil appeared to help in his brain recovery.

Source: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...t-clinically-dead-paramedics-revived-him.html

There is no way of knowing that the fish oil made any difference or he just came out of his coma. I found this article upsetting, because they were sneaking him high doses of fish oil, which could have had negative consequences.

I hope people don't read this and start putting goodness knows what, into their loved ones bodies and end up causing harm.

 

[SophieRose]

----------
The difference is, this little girl is brain damaged. Jahi is brain dead. In case I would have had the anesthetist (sp) looked into. I cant see health ins. of any kind paying for a dead person. If they do, its revoltin'!! Jahis' body no doubt has decomp already. It will continue to decay. IMO.

I was only talking about the length of time before the other family filed a lawsuit, not the difference between brain dead and brain damaged.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

How do we really know that it hasnt already ended? Wouldnt that be something if we found out Jahis heart stopped the night they took her from CHO? Nothing would surprise me with this crazy story.

You're right. We don't know for certain that Jahi's heart is still beating with the help of a ventilator. Since there's been no public acknowledgment of Jahi's passing, we can only base our speculations on what's posted by family members on social media sites. At this time, no one has mentioned that Jahi is no longer "with us" but they suggest that she continues to "do well" while being treated at an undisclosed location.

 

[SophieRose]

I don't remember previously seeing Dolan's cease and desist order sent to CHO on 12/17. Why would he post it on his website?

http://www.cbdlaw.com/Letter-to-CHO.PDF.pagespeed.ce.HshywEUiZF.pdf

He's had it up there since soon after he sent it. I posted the link here back then.