Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #8

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  • #961
I presume there is nothing this lawyer would like more than to reverse her certified death and have her declared alive.
Considering there is a limit on how much money one can get for medical mistake if the patient is dead. But not on how much one can get if patient is alive but severely disabled.
If there was any evidence she wasn't actually dead, I presume that lawyer would jump on it in a second.

What I addressed was whether the lawyer has an ethical duty to rush in and reverse the death declaration. That's what I answered - not whether there would be reasons for him to do so or a benefit to the family if he did so. And my answer is that no, he has no ethical duty to do so. At all. I wanted to clear that up.

As to any possible beneift to do so, first of all, there is a cap on med. mal cases whether the patient is alive or not. $250,000.00 is all the family can get for pain and suffering, period. Whether Jahi was still alive or whether she remains declared dead. They get no more.

Of course, the payment of her medical care is another story and there is no cap on that.

However, if Jahi received Medi-Cal, which is what I suspect, there would be no out of pocket cost for her for medical care, if she was declared alive. So there would be little difference in what can be recovered between death and alive (but disabled). I do not believe she would be entitled to lost wages due to her age at the time of the incident.

Of course Jahi is at a facility and that facility is keeping her body sustained right now. And that costs money. If the declaration of death was reversed, she could be transported to a hospice or rehab facility and if she is eligible for Medi-Cal, that would cover her costs.

Nevertheless, it appears that the facility she is at is providing the services to Jahi either free of charge or funded by a right to life organization. So the family is not losing money as a result of her remaining legally dead.

Finally, the lawyer understands that it would take a lot to obtain a reversal of death declaration. Even if Jahi is showing signs that some interpret as signs of life.

And, while I believe this attorney is actually passionate about his case, truly believes in the cause and believes in the family, his statements about Jahi showing signs of life may be more designed to assist the cause- that cause being a family's right to maintain "life preserving measures" on a person that has been declared brain dead, if that person's religion or personal conviction states that only cardiac death determines death.

In other words, the attorney is the mouthpiece of his clients' position, not his own, personal beliefs. He has a case he is fighting that is an uphill battle but it is a case he believes in. I can understand that. I may not agree with a position my client is taking. But I will fight for their right to assert their position, if it involves a legitimate cause or belief on their part, depending on the circumstances.

The attorney may believe that Jahi is indeed brain dead and that it is unlikely that her condition will be reversed. (Or he may truly believe that science is fallible and Jahi has a chance). Either way, you better know that he has explained to the family what they are up against.

However, if he personally believes it is unlikely that Jahi will recover, he does appears to understand that there are those who believe brain death is reversible, that the science of the brain is not fully understood or explored and that miracles can happen, that brain death does not equal actual death and that certain responses of the body may be evidence of a miracle. And he appears to believe that such persons deserve protection of the law.

He is doing his job, representing that faction and representing their beliefs that the movements Jahi's body is making may be evidence that she is indeed, not brain dead or is healing from brain death. There is nothing unethical he is doing, IMO, at this point.

And since he probably understands that it is unlikely a miracle will occur and Jahi will recover from brain death, nothing can be gained at this point by rushing into court even while he makes statements affirming the belief that there may be signs of life. Further, his thinking may be that if indeed, somehow, the medical establishment is wrong and a miracle occurs, he has time to wait and see if the movements turn into more and signs of life return in a manner discernible to medical professionals.

Basically, he has one year from the date the malpractice was discovered, to file a lawsuit, whether for medical malpractice wrongful death or medical malpractice without wrongful death. My guess is that when the statute is close to tolling, if Jahi's heart is still functioning, he will probably file both actions in one, even though they seem contradictory (although I can't say for sure, because it is not my area of the law), sort of to cover both bases: If nothing changes within the 12 month period, and the law continues to consider her dead, he's got his other claim to fall back on. That is the case if her heart stops before the case is resolved as well. If she miraculously shows signs of life or if he is deciding to use this case as part of a greater challenge to the brain death law in California, he will have the regular malpractice claim to continue on with. One claim will eventually be dropped either way.

I'm betting this is probably seriously confusing. My apologies. I'm sure for some it seems like his statements, if he really, personally believes Jahi is brain dead and will never recover, or the (possible) filing of two, contradictory suits, evidence a hypocrisy and dishonesty.

Although my personal practice as an attorney is different (I would use statements like, "My clients report clear signs of life. I have seen those signs and it does appear that she is moving and responding. My client's right to hope and their belief in life without cardiac death, should be respected by the laws of this state and that it what I am fighting for."), many attorneys simply act as the mouthpiece of their clients (E.g. "He is 100% innocent of the charges and is eager to prove that at trial."), without breaching the rules of ethics.

As to filing two contradictory claims, that happens not infrequently in civil cases and is done as a means to preserve the clients' rights.
 
  • #962
My MIL died after eight years in a PVS. She was not even brain dead but she could not turn herself or move spontaneously. She did not turn toward voices either. She appeared to be very miserable. Thin and wasted looking with muscle shrinkage. My SO cried when he would go see her and she appeared to cry too. Such a sad state. But she was NOT brain dead. JMO but sounds like someone is imagining things to ...er...uh....get the money train rolling through. (my MIL breathed on her own and was tube fed but still looking very bad).

My father was in a PVS for 3 months, he like your MIL could not turn himself, he could move his head, but not his body. He was not on life support, but had a feeding tube....He too was wasting away and weighed about 115 lbs when he died. He wasnt aware and could not follow your voice or objects...He has wake sleep cycles...We had a DNR placed and he died of respiratoy failure.... I dont believe Jahi is moving or aware of anything...Just have to throw something out there every once in a while to keep them relevant and when they need to stir up the donations.....
 
  • #963
It seems like it would be in the best interests of the family to find somebody to help them reverse the death certificate as being alive would give her the status of a disabled person.

Please read my response above. They know and their attorney knows that getting such a reversal is likely impossible at this stage, regardless of what they are "seeing". It is not unethical for the attorney to refrain from rushing into court at this stage, to obtain a reversal of the death declaration. Again, that's what I was responding to.

I do understand what this conversation is about: "If there were really signs of life as you say, you would prove it!!!!!!!!" But my participation in the conversation is to clear up incorrect statements about this attorney's ethical duties.
 
  • #964
BBM and snipped for focus:
....
In other words, the attorney is the mouthpiece of his clients' position, not his own, personal beliefs.....

He is doing his job, representing that faction and representing their beliefs that the movements Jahi's body is making may be evidence that she is indeed, not brain dead or is healing from brain death. There is nothing unethical he is doing, IMO, at this point.

.... Although my personal practice as an attorney is different (I would use statements like, "My clients report clear signs of life. I have seen those signs and it does appear that she is moving and responding. My client's right to hope and their belief in life without cardiac death, should be respected by the laws of this state and that it what I am fighting for."), many attorneys simply act as the mouthpiece of their clients (E.g. "He is 100% innocent of the charges and is eager to prove that at trial."), without breaching the rules of ethics.

Agreed, there is some hair-splitting distinctions re atty's phrasing.
I don't have the exact quotes from him to link.
But if an atty said (as you Gitana would phrase it)---
"My clients report clear signs of life. I have seen those signs and it does appear that she is moving and responding."
He is not saying he personally believes that those movements are signs of life, meaning the death cert was wrongfully issued.
Nor is he relating what his own professional or personal beliefs are,
re brain death = legal death or only cardiac death = legal death.
He's just saying she's been moving and what that means to her fam
(her movements = no legal death, so death cert was wrongfully issued, etc).

I believe few of us here doubt that she has been moving.

Once again, gitana1, thanks for your explanation about this.
 
  • #965
As to filing two contradictory claims, that happens not infrequently in civil cases and is done as a means to preserve the clients' rights.

To my non-legal mind that means that at least half of what they swear to be true is false.
 
  • #966
BBM and snipped for focus:


Agreed, there is some hair-splitting distinctions re atty's phrasing.
I don't have the exact quotes from him to link.
But if an atty said (as you Gitana would phrase it)---
"My clients report clear signs of life. I have seen those signs and it does appear that she is moving and responding."
He is not saying he personally believes that those movements are signs of life, meaning the death cert was wrongfully issued.
Nor is he relating what his own professional or personal beliefs are,
re brain death = legal death or only cardiac death = legal death.
He's just saying she's been moving and what that means to her fam
(her movements = no legal death, so death cert was wrongfully issued, etc).

I believe few of us here doubt that she has been moving.

Once again, gitana1, thanks for your explanation about this.

True, but he may actually believe this. There is something psychological that occurs with attorneys that when they take a case, they tend to become vested in their client's position, passionate and believe the client 100%.

It can be frustrating because it can become personal to many attorneys. And they can become victims of cognitive dissonance. But if this guy does not actually personally believe what he is saying, it is not unethical for him to make such a statement of opinion. It would be unethical for him, however, to lie to the court, or to ask a question the answer to which he knows is a lie. For example, "Sir, did you kill the victim?" if he knows his client did knows his client will lie. He can't do that. But if there is a question as to the truth, by someone, in a situation such as this he can offer that, even if he doesn't share the personal belief.

Thus, telling the court, "I saw Jahi move and appear to respond to people. And that is a sign of life." That he could tell the court. If he said, "I saw Jahi get up and walk around". That he can't.

And he can say whatever he wants to reporters, unless gagged.

To my non-legal mind that means that at least half of what they swear to be true is false.

I know, but it truly isn't dishonest. A lot of legal arguments, new law, research or discovery of records, new opinions, whatever, can surface after a suit is filed, that change things. It is malpractice not to preserve a client's rights. If the attorney wasn't clear what the facts ultimately are or will show or how they will be interpreted, etc., he can do this. It's like, "If the Court determines Jahi is alive, we can recover under this theory. If the court persists in its decision that she is dead, we can still recover under this theory.

Doesn't mean the attorney or parties are lying. It means they don't know what the court will do and what facts will ultimately be included or show.
 
  • #967
Dolan has stated both that Jahi died and that she is alive. JMO but I don't think he thinks she has a chance to recover. I think he'll just say whatever he thinks he needs to in order to get the job done. It's his duty for his clients but it's got nothing to do with honesty imo, just hedging their bets.
 
  • #968
Dolan has stated both that Jahi died and that she is alive. JMO but I don't think he thinks she has a chance to recover. I think he'll just say whatever he thinks he needs to in order to get the job done. It's his duty for his clients but it's got nothing to do with honesty imo, just hedging their bets.

Yes, that's true. But it doesnt necessarily have to do with dishonesty either. It's actually what lawyers a trained to do - cover all bases and hedge bets when necessary.
 
  • #969
Gitana1, thank you for your detailed explanations about why you think Attorney Dolan bears no responsibility to act either "for" or "against" persuasive activity for declaring Jahi alive.

I am not an attorney, but my ideas about ethical behavior are grounded (rightly or wrongly, and probably wrongly) in what would be ethical behavior for a health care professional in the same circumstances. I have not given prolonged consideration to the differences between the roles of health care professionals and attorneys in situations such as these, but I do recognize that attorneys view their ethical obligations much differently than health care professionals.

If I believed, from my own observations and experienced professional observations, that a patient had been "incorrectly" or mistakenly diagnosed with brain death, I would be compelled, on behalf of my patient's best interests, to question that diagnosis in an appropriate fashion, and seek clarification. And document that process in the medical record.

I don't believe Jahi is alive, or recovering from brain death. I have a lot of confidence in the evaluations and diagnostic imaging that took place in Dec 2013.

But it does "bother" me, deeply, that an attorney in a prominent and well-publicized case can give the appearance of validating and corroborating information, and then equivocate and also endorse conflicting and contradictory information about the same situation. That feels a lot like playing both ends, which (IMO) feels very dishonest, disrespectful, and frankly, slimy.

If Attorney Dolan has seen behaviors that cause HIM to believe that Jahi is alive, in conjunction with the beliefs his clients have expressed PUBLICLY, then it is very hard for me to accept that he is "just" a mouthpiece, with no autonomous professional obligation or responsibility of his own. That is professionally dishonest, in a significant way, IMO.

Jahi is a vulnerable soul, whether dead or alive. Who speaks for her, if not the attorney representing her family and her protectors? Why does Attorney Dolan get a "pass" on this? He represents the family's interests in the care of Jahi, and therefore, Jahi--dead or alive. I believe he does bear some responsibility for endorsing the positions of the family (that she displays signs of being alive and cognizant), and should guide them to seek legal determination of her status.

Thank you very much for the intellectual exercise! :)
 
  • #970
Snipped for focus and BBM:
Gitana1, thank you for your detailed explanations about why you think Attorney Dolan bears no responsibility to act either "for" or "against" persuasive activity for declaring Jahi alive.

... differences between the roles of health care professionals and attorneys in situations such as these, but I do recognize that attorneys view their ethical obligations much differently than health care professionals....
Jahi ... Who speaks for her, if not the attorney representing her family and her protectors? :)

First, thank you to both K Z and gitana1 for your professional input on Jahi's and other threads.

Is is possible you two reached different conclusions based upon who the 'med profs rep/advocate for vs who atty reps/advocates for?

K Z/Med professional argues that she advocates for patient (by implication Jahi, not Jahi's mom).

In ct-filed petition, atty Dolan filed on behalf of Jahi's mom (by implication, not Jahi herself).

So seems, imo, both K Z and gitana1 are 'right.'

Thanks again to both of you for enlightening all of us on W/S.

JM2cts and I may be wrong.:seeya:
 
  • #971
Please read my response above. They know and their attorney knows that getting such a reversal is likely impossible at this stage, regardless of what they are "seeing". It is not unethical for the attorney to refrain from rushing into court at this stage, to obtain a reversal of the death declaration. Again, that's what I was responding to.

I do understand what this conversation is about: "If there were really signs of life as you say, you would prove it!!!!!!!!" But my participation in the conversation is to clear up incorrect statements about this attorney's ethical duties.

Thanks. The attorney certainly has stayed consistent. He has always struck me as having a position that Jahi's condition is a result of criminal misconduct rather than malpractice and that she has never been brain dead.

JMO
 
  • #972
Gitana1, thank you for your detailed explanations about why you think Attorney Dolan bears no responsibility to act either "for" or "against" persuasive activity for declaring Jahi alive.

I am not an attorney, but my ideas about ethical behavior are grounded (rightly or wrongly, and probably wrongly) in what would be ethical behavior for a health care professional in the same circumstances. I have not given prolonged consideration to the differences between the roles of health care professionals and attorneys in situations such as these, but I do recognize that attorneys view their ethical obligations much differently than health care professionals.

If I believed, from my own observations and experienced professional observations, that a patient had been "incorrectly" or mistakenly diagnosed with brain death, I would be compelled, on behalf of my patient's best interests, to question that diagnosis in an appropriate fashion, and seek clarification. And document that process in the medical record.

I don't believe Jahi is alive, or recovering from brain death. I have a lot of confidence in the evaluations and diagnostic imaging that took place in Dec 2013.

But it does "bother" me, deeply, that an attorney in a prominent and well-publicized case can give the appearance of validating and corroborating information, and then equivocate and also endorse conflicting and contradictory information about the same situation. That feels a lot like playing both ends, which (IMO) feels very dishonest, disrespectful, and frankly, slimy.

If Attorney Dolan has seen behaviors that cause HIM to believe that Jahi is alive, in conjunction with the beliefs his clients have expressed PUBLICLY, then it is very hard for me to accept that he is "just" a mouthpiece, with no autonomous professional obligation or responsibility of his own. That is professionally dishonest, in a significant way, IMO.

Jahi is a vulnerable soul, whether dead or alive. Who speaks for her, if not the attorney representing her family and her protectors? Why does Attorney Dolan get a "pass" on this? He represents the family's interests in the care of Jahi, and therefore, Jahi--dead or alive. I believe he does bear some responsibility for endorsing the positions of the family (that she displays signs of being alive and cognizant), and should guide them to seek legal determination of her status.

Thank you very much for the intellectual exercise! :)

Will legal determination of her status change how she is being cared for by the professionals at her bedside? Aren't you making a rather giant assumption that none of the health care professionals caring for Jahi are performing their ethical duties? Health care professionals are required by law to honor the privacy of someone in their care so the public has no way of knowing their opinions nor should we.
 
  • #973
Gitana1, thank you for your detailed explanations about why you think Attorney Dolan bears no responsibility to act either "for" or "against" persuasive activity for declaring Jahi alive.

I am not an attorney, but my ideas about ethical behavior are grounded (rightly or wrongly, and probably wrongly) in what would be ethical behavior for a health care professional in the same circumstances. I have not given prolonged consideration to the differences between the roles of health care professionals and attorneys in situations such as these, but I do recognize that attorneys view their ethical obligations much differently than health care professionals.

If I believed, from my own observations and experienced professional observations, that a patient had been "incorrectly" or mistakenly diagnosed with brain death, I would be compelled, on behalf of my patient's best interests, to question that diagnosis in an appropriate fashion, and seek clarification. And document that process in the medical record.

I don't believe Jahi is alive, or recovering from brain death. I have a lot of confidence in the evaluations and diagnostic imaging that took place in Dec 2013.

But it does "bother" me, deeply, that an attorney in a prominent and well-publicized case can give the appearance of validating and corroborating information, and then equivocate and also endorse conflicting and contradictory information about the same situation. That feels a lot like playing both ends, which (IMO) feels very dishonest, disrespectful, and frankly, slimy.

If Attorney Dolan has seen behaviors that cause HIM to believe that Jahi is alive, in conjunction with the beliefs his clients have expressed PUBLICLY, then it is very hard for me to accept that he is "just" a mouthpiece, with no autonomous professional obligation or responsibility of his own. That is professionally dishonest, in a significant way, IMO.

Jahi is a vulnerable soul, whether dead or alive. Who speaks for her, if not the attorney representing her family and her protectors? Why does Attorney Dolan get a "pass" on this? He represents the family's interests in the care of Jahi, and therefore, Jahi--dead or alive. I believe he does bear some responsibility for endorsing the positions of the family (that she displays signs of being alive and cognizant), and should guide them to seek legal determination of her status.

Thank you very much for the intellectual exercise! :)

Your welcome and thank you!!!

What I'm hearing, frankly, is that people feel strongly about this case and it's difficult to divorce their own feelings or experiences from what they think duty requires. In other words, I get the sense that, "I believe he's wrong and the family is wrong so for him to endorse an opposing view is unethical unless he can prove he is right."

Let me make clear that Dolan does not get a pass on anything. Again, he has no obligation of any kind to rush into court to "prove" anything at this stage. I tried to explain why, from a legal, ethical standpoint. All I can do is sort of repeat what I've said before, I think:

1. Dolan knows that getting a reversal is likely impossible at this stage, regardless of what he and others are "seeing". Even if Jahi is showing signs that some interpret as signs of life. Thus, it is not unethical for the attorney to refrain from rushing into court at this stage, to obtain a reversal of the death declaration.

2. It appears that the facility Jahi is at is providing the services to Jahi either free of charge or funded by a right to life organization. So the family is not losing money as a result of her remaining legally dead.

3. The attorney is the mouthpiece of his clients' position, not his own, personal beliefs. He has a case he is fighting that is an uphill battle but it is a case he believes in. I can understand that. I may not agree with a position my client is taking. But I will fight for their right to assert their position, if it involves a legitimate cause or belief on their part, depending on the circumstances.

4. The attorney may also believe that Jahi is indeed brain dead and that it is unlikely that her condition will be reversed. (Or he may truly believe that science is fallible and Jahi has a chance). Either way, he has explained to the family what they are up against.

5. However, if he personally believes it is unlikely that Jahi will recover, he does appears to understand that there are those who believe brain death is reversible, that the science of the brain is not fully understood or explored and that miracles can happen, that brain death does not equal actual death and that certain responses of the body may be evidence of a miracle EVEN IF THAT MIRACLE IS NOT YET SCIENTIFICALLY RECOGNIZED. And he appears to believe that such persons deserve protection of the law.

6. He is doing his job, representing that faction and representing their beliefs that the movements Jahi's body is making may be evidence that she is indeed, not brain dead or is healing from brain death. There is nothing unethical he is doing, IMO, at this point.

7. And since he probably understands that it is unlikely a miracle will occur and Jahi will recover from brain death, nothing can be gained at this point by rushing into court even while he makes statements affirming the belief that there may be signs of life. Further, his thinking may be that if indeed, somehow, the medical establishment is wrong and a miracle occurs, he has time to wait and see if the movements turn into more and signs of life return in a manner discernible to medical professionals.

8. He may need to preserve the rights of the family to recover under each theory - malpractice and life or malpractice and death. This is not dishonesty. It's just uncertainty as to ho the facts will be interpreted.


I understand medical ethics. Legal ethics are different. In legal ethics, the personal beliefs of the attorney may not be the same as his professional opinion as to what the courts may do. His obligation is to advise his clients as to what the courts are likely to do, but he is not obligated to take a legal course of action that is contrary to what the court may do. That's because, while medicine deals more in scientific absolutes, law does not. It often changes and litigation strategy can be part of any future change.

Thus, litigation is often a tool to change the system. Medicine is not that way. You can't ethically experiment, for example, on patients, in order to change the rules of science. In law, you can "experiment", in a sense, however, with legal strategy and claims, in order to change legal rules. That's what happened for example, with the people who fought prop. 8 in California.

I know I'm not explaining well but that's the best I can do for right now!! My apologies!
 
  • #974
That was an excellent explanation, I now understand both sides and feel a bit better about Dolan. Thanks Gitana and KZ for your thoughtful explanations on these very important issues. It will be interesting to see how this all unfolds. Still hoping for a miracle!
 
  • #975
Normally, people with a death certificate would NOT be cared for in a health care facility. Nor would medical professionals be involved in caring for the deceased. I am a retired RN but if I were active it would give me the willies to do this type of care. I addition I would feel the time and effort as well as the expense was a waste because I know too many alive, walking around people who are desperately ill and who could benefit from such care. Jahi will never benefit. She is gone. JMO.
 
  • #976
Thanks. The attorney certainly has stayed consistent. He has always struck me as having a position that Jahi's condition is a result of criminal misconduct rather than malpractice and that she has never been brain dead.

JMO

I'm not sure quite what you mean. I've read interviews he's given where he appears to point to malpractice/negligence. Criminal misconduct would be more along the lines of someone did something willfully and purposefully that led to Jahi's condition. Like tried to harm her.

However, I note that Dolan has stated he feels it would be unethical for him to represent the family in a malpractice action so he's not going to do that anyway. He's only represented them in their quest to not have Jahi removed from ventilators against her family's will. Now he's just defending that representation.

So, I was wrong about my guess that Dolan would file a med mal action before the year is up. Nevertheless, his statements of opinion should not impact a future claim.
 
  • #977
I'm not sure quite what you mean. I've read interviews he's given where he appears to point to malpractice/negligence. Criminal misconduct would be more along the lines of someone did something willfully and purposefully that led to Jahi's condition. Like tried to harm her.

However, I note that Dolan has stated he feels it would be unethical for him to represent the family in a malpractice action so he's not going to do that anyway. He's only represented them in their quest to not have Jahi removed from ventilators against her family's will. Now he's just defending that representation.

So, I was wrong about my guess that Dolan would file a med mal action before the year is up. Nevertheless, his statements of opinion should not impact a future claim.

I don't disagree. In an interview very early in this case, the attorney gave the impression that the reason he so strongly supports a parent's right to make the decision was because they thought the hospital was trying to rush in disconnecting life support in order to cover up negligence/malpractice. I don't know about California but in my state if a death is in the hospital and attended, no autopsy is required.
 
  • #978
Will legal determination of her status change how she is being cared for by the professionals at her bedside? Aren't you making a rather giant assumption that none of the health care professionals caring for Jahi are performing their ethical duties? Health care professionals are required by law to honor the privacy of someone in their care so the public has no way of knowing their opinions nor should we.

I disagree that I am "making a rather giant assumption." We really can't make any assumptions about anything in this case, at this point.

http://www.newser.com/story/183791/uncle-jahi-mcmath-knows-where-she-is.html

No medical professional corroborates Sealy's claims, and the Chronicle points out that movement by brain-dead people can be the result of muscle reflexes.

BBM.

I don't assume there are "professionals at her bedside." That would be a foolish assumption, without any proof or verification. Particularly coming from this family and this attorney, IMO. Their level of knowledge, education, comments, and interpretations, are not independently verifiable by known professionals, nor do I consider the family and attorney trustworthy sources of medical information.

I haven't made any assumptions. I don't necessarily even assume that ANY of the "caregivers" are health care professionals, let alone whether they hold any licenses. We cannot even assume Jahi's body is in a health care facility at all, let alone a licensed facility. All we know is what selective information the family and the attorney choose to report to the public.
 
  • #979
I don't know about California but in my state if a death is in the hospital and attended, no autopsy is required.

Snipped for focus.

That's not an accurate statement.

There are MANY situations where there may be an attended death in a hospital where a case must be referred to the coroner's/ medical examiner. It is up to the coroner/ ME to determine if an autopsy is required, not the physician attending the death. Hospitals have guidance in their policies regarding mandatory notifications to the ME/ coroner. I'm not aware of any states that have a blanket policy that if a death occurs in a hospital, regardless of circumstances, that an autopsy is never required.

There are also many situations where an attended death occurs in a hospital, and no notifications to the ME are required. Families are usually given the option of requesting an autopsy, in those circumstances.
 
  • #980
This link is from another California county but I think it probably works pretty much the same way where Jahi died:

http://www.riversidesheriff.org/coroner/

Mandatory Investigations
Government Code, State of California, Section 27491, and
Health and Safety Code Section 102850 mandate that the Sheriff-Coroner inquire into the following deaths:
Unattended deaths
The deceased has not been attended by a physician in the 20 days prior to death
Physician unable to state the cause of death
Known or suspected homicide
Involving any criminal action or suspicion of a criminal act, in whole or in part

Jahi fits the third condition:
The Alameda County coroner's office issued a death certificate for the girl Friday but said the document is incomplete because no cause of death has been determined pending an autopsy.

I would say her death was also rather sudden and unusual:

CALIFORNIA GOVERNMENT CODE SECTION 27491

27491. It shall be the duty of the coroner to inquire into and determine the circumstances, manner, and cause of all violent, sudden, or unusual deaths;
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...hi-mcmath-released-to-coroner-mother-hospital
Since the family went public saying the hospital tried to kill her to cover up some kind of shady stuff the suspicion of criminal act part might also apply.

Note that it's mandatory that there is always a coroner investigation if the death is unattended and there is no doctor contact prior to death. It does not mean that the reverse is true (that there is never a coroner investigation, or an autopsy, required, if the death was attended by doctors).

Additionally, the Riverside County Coroner typically investigates cases such as:

All emergency and operating room deaths
Deaths with known or suspected contribution by a therapeutic procedure
All deaths where a patient has not fully recovered from an anesthetic, whether in surgery, recovery room or elsewhere
Deaths occurring under 24 hours in a hospital
Deaths of patients who have had surgery during the current hospital admission
All deaths in which the patient is comatose throughout the period of physician attendance, whether at home or hospital
Solitary deaths (unattended by physician or other persons in the period proceeding death)
Deaths of unidentified persons
All deaths of persons who are charges of the State
Deaths of children (age 17 and under)

Jahi fits a few of these criteria as well. She's under 17, had surgery during the current hospital admission and a therapeutic procedure is involved in her death.

Moreover, the representatives of the coroner's office have clearly implied more than once that they want to do an autopsy, so I'm going to assume that it's not their rule that an autopsy is never needed if the person died attended by doctors.
 
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