Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #8

[Donjeta]

This thread is at least one place where we had the same discussion earlier.
Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery - Page 55 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Clearly stated where? I've yet to see where a coroner has requested an autopsy done on Jahi. All of us are certainly free to draw conclusions about the family but I have yet to see any coroner's office demanding an autopsy. Would you please post links? Thanks. I posted a link where an expert opined that medical records might preclude the need for an autopsy. I agree with that possibility.

An expert from a different county (who doesn't know the case details and is just speaking generally) says that the medical records might be enough to determine cause of death.

In that same link the people from the particular coroner's office that is actually concerned with the case, and, I presume, more familiar with the details, are quoted saying that they have not been able to determine cause of death and may not be able to do so because the autopsy has been delayed.

Who do you think is likely to know better?

I'm sorry for saying you conveniently ignored links but you seem to have missed this information in the link you quoted yourself, previously quoted in this thread:

The Alameda County Coroner issued a death certificate for the 13-year-old girl Friday, 23 days after Jahi was declared brain dead, but said the document is incomplete because no cause of death has been determined pending an autopsy, which has yet to take place.

"It does make it more difficult," Alameda County Sheriff's Sgt. J.D. Nelson told NBC Bay Area when asked if delaying an autopsy could affect figuring out how someone died. "It can change a lot of things when the bodily functions continue. In fact, we may not be able to determine a cause of death."

Here it is again, for reference: http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/loca...licates-Cause-of-Death-Experts-238945011.html

Pending an autopsy implies that there will be an autopsy. Talking about the autopsy being delayed implies that there will be an autopsy. An autopsy which is yet to take place implies that there will be an autopsy.

I'm sorry but not only haven't I had this conversation previously, <modsnip> Reporters have issued stories consistently that indicate an autopsy may not be necessary and I haven't seen anything to support your theory that "they" wanted to do it all along. Please don't accuse me of conveniently ignoring links. Thanks.

Here's a link that was posted in a previous thread you participated in but maybe you missed seeing it:
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/12/17/health/california-girl-brain-dead/

"Technically, we can go where the body lies and we can begin our investigation as to the causes of death," the official from the coroner's office said. "We have been gracious and we have allowed the parents and the hospital to maintain the child on life support."

Krigel, the hospital spokeswoman, said that the hospital has no policy about terminating life support. "We work with the family to determine when that will happen," she said in an e-mail. "There are instances when the coroner may request termination, but we always work with the family to respect their wishes."

The official at the coroner's office said time is critical. "When the body is on a ventilator, the body is healing," the official said. "If a medical misadventure occurred, and the body is healing and covering up traces of that misadventure, the coroner pathologist has a more difficult time rendering a cause of death."

The bigger issue is deciding whether it is more important to delay removing the ventilator to give relatives time to grieve or to act quickly to determine the causes of death before continued healing could make it impossible to ascertain those causes, the official said.

"We know the parents want answers, and it is our office that will provide answers if they are available to us," the official said. "The longer we wait, the less susceptible we are to getting the evidence we need to render a cause of death. Time is not on our side, from a medical investigation standpoint."

"The longer we wait..." What are they waiting for? An autopsy.
These quotes also all clearly imply that the coroner's office were planning to have an autopsy all along. (This is from December 18th, a week or so after the surgery.)

The only reason time is critical is because it changes things for the autopsy.
If they were only going to look at her medical records and ask the attending doctors what went wrong and determine the cause of death based on that, the quotes wouldn't make any sense. The coroner pathologist is relevant to an autopsy. It wouldn't make any difference that her surgical wounds are healing if an autopsy wasn't needed to determine cause of death.

It's quite clear they wanted to do an autopsy all along.

This seems to be a case where some of us believe a parent does have a right to make these decisions and other want to obliterate that ability. I will never believe a parent does not have that right.

It depends. What rights are you referring to? A right to make certain medical decisions for their living child? A right to forbid an autopsy that is considered necessary for the coroner's legally mandatory investigation of death? A right to decide that their deceased child didn't die?

 

[Donjeta]

This is from Arkansas, not California, but it illustrates the complexity of determining cause of death.

http://www.healthy.arkansas.gov/pro...h Records/reporting_cause_of_death_manual.doc

I mean, we think we know why she died, (she bled after surgery, got anoxia and cerebral edema and became brain dead) , but it's not as simple as that for the person who's filling out the documents. Saying someone's brain dead or that his heart stopped is how they know these people are dead but to determine a cause of death they're looking for a sequence of events and conditions that led to the death and they might need to identify multiple causative agents and contributing factors and to determine a temporal sequence, eg. if there was an initial injury or predisposing factors etc. Anoxia and cerebral edema are examples of conditions that aren't accepted as causes of death in Arkansas and you should dig deeper to find out underlying conditions or factors that caused the anoxia and cerebral edema. I'm guessing the cardiac arrest caused anoxia and the bleeding after surgery caused the cardiac arrest but what caused the bleeding? Did something go wrong in the surgery? After the surgery? Did something go wrong when they took care of her after the complications?

They'd have wanted to examine her body freshly after the surgery to determine that but of course it might be too late now.

 

[joypath]

Snipped. For clarity
NOPE.absolutely NO confusion!!!!!!
The certificate is pending MANNER of death, the COD is the medical opinion & can be substantiated by the post mortem examination.
News reports (cited in other posts) have stated that the California coroner expects the body vlback (on phone, can't provide link)

 

[Leilei]

New interviews with Jahi's mom:

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news...alifornia-Girl-Speaks-Publicly-252650961.html

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/video/#!/...ahi-McMaths-Mother-Says-of-Daughter/252690271

"She's still asleep"

 

[joypath]

"She's doing everything on her own".....BUT the vent is on "room air"! Quotes from the second link.




WOW, I'm speechless>>>>>>and for me, that's unusual (just read my verbose posts! ):floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:




:truce:

I'm beginning to wonder if a whole lot of us need to return our diplomas & licenses since science has been debunked????:banghead::banghead::banghead:

 

[Softail]

New interviews with Jahi's mom:

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news...alifornia-Girl-Speaks-Publicly-252650961.html

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/video/#!/...ahi-McMaths-Mother-Says-of-Daughter/252690271

"She's still asleep"

:banghead: :banghead:

:thud:

:notgood:

 

[al66pine]

Just watched both vid clips linked above.
Wondering if I heard correctly.

nbc philly link (where she appears in studio w Bobby Schindler (sp?), Terry Schaivo's brother)
Most of Mom's comments are @ :55 sec to 2 min mark, mostly my paraphrasing below:

Interviewer asked- you and your family have been private, have been caring for Jahi, how is she doing.
- Jahi is "actually doing great physically"
- "Her skin is flawless. All her vitals are stable."
-- No medicines to maintain anything.
- -Jahi is doing everything herself, except waking up. "She's still asleep."
- Physically doing much better than when she left from California.
Q: Is there movement?
- - Jahi is moving all the time, arms, legs, feet and head.
Moved so much they have pillows around her on bed, because she split her lip(?)


other link, nbc bayarea:
- "...Fed and being treated, her energy level is up way more
so she moves around a lot more than when she was in California"
- "Moves her arms and legs, and her head from side to side and she bends at the waist"
- "way more responsive. Still asleep."
- "I'm waiting and faithful that she will have a recovery."
- "She has physical therapy three to four times a week."
- "No PICC lines, no catheters, no IVs."
- "She gets food through a feeding tube."
- "She gets a regimen of vitamins and some fish oil."
- "I give her a manicure and a pedicure every Friday"
(continuing what they did at home, she described colors).
- "not on any medications to maintain anything."
- "Her vent is on room air" (as joypath posted, above)

Mom says she is reading the Bible and reading about brain health -
about what brings ppl out of deep comas.

Thx in adv for corrections or clarifications.

 

[CHERIE.T]

New interviews with Jahi's mom:

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news...alifornia-Girl-Speaks-Publicly-252650961.html

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/video/#!/...ahi-McMaths-Mother-Says-of-Daughter/252690271

"She's still asleep"

She's still deceased.

 

[K_Z]

So it seems that Mrs Winkfield has confirmed that Jahi is not in California. At least, that's how I interpreted her phrasing. "Back in California...."

Ventilator on room air. That's not exactly "how" a health professional would characterize the settings. Technically, that would be characterized as 21% O2. Room air could imply the vent circuit is open. Or perhaps using an oxygen concentrator. Which also means she may, or may not be in any kind of actual health care facility. She could be in a home care environment. Would make care easier if you didn't have to have oxygen delivery. Anyhooo......fwiw.

 

[CHERIE.T]

Mom said she can bend at the waist. :facepalm:

 

[al66pine]

Q 1.
Who is caring for Jahi - fam only or med ppl or both?
What do you folks think about nbcphilly link question & answer at :50 sec or 1 min.

Interviewer asked - you and your family have been private, have been caring for Jahi, how is she doing?
Mom did not correct the interviewer, did not say
'she has wonderful med staff & providers taking care of her.'
Did not say my mother and I, or cousins, aunts, etc.

Q2.
Where is Jahi?
Mom also alludes to Jahi not being in California anymore.
See my quote of her statement about doing better than when in Cal.
Mom did not say anything like - 'wonderful facility, nursing home or hosp.'

Makes me wonder if Jahi is in a non-Cal. relative's back bedroom, w Mom and G'ma caring for her and staying there too.

 

[Leilei]

She's still deceased.

Exactly.

My mind is blown that this is still going on, three months later. :facepalm:

 

[CHERIE.T]

Exactly.

My mind is blown that this is still going on, three months later. :facepalm:

Same here Leilei! I have a feeling this could go on for years.

 

[Softail]

Same here Leilei! I have a feeling this could go on for years.

I think the next shoe to drop will be that she is only "disabled". Followed by the lawsuit. Good luck with that. :twocents:

 

[ziggy]

I read "Proof of Heaven" so I'm not sure Western medicine has all the answers. This is an interesting case and I'm actually really grateful they've kept her alive or artificially alive so that we can see if a body really decomposes in this state or if her parents are just in denial.

This opportunity would not exist had she not been moved. It's no skin off my back that her parents have her and are caring for her in a facility. If they feel giving her love, praying and keeping hope is the answer, then who should stop them and for what reason?

Not doing an autopsy simply means it would be harder for the parents to sue the hospital wouldn't it?

In the beginning I was really annoyed with this case and the parents. Now I'm just a curious cat hoping we learn something new from this.

 

[Cubby]

:banghead: :banghead:

:thud:

:notgood:

I couldn't have said it better.

 

[CHERIE.T]

I think the next shoe to drop will be that she is only "disabled". Followed by the lawsuit. Good luck with that. :twocents:

Oh lordy, I bet you are right.

 

[Donjeta]

It seems so devastating. The much loved child died months ago but she's still getting weekly manicures and has her toe nails color coordinated for St. Patrick's day.

I can't even imagine.

Wondering what mom meant by saying she's not using the word brain dead. At first it kind of sounded like she was saying she knows Jahi is brain dead but is choosing not to say it out loud as it's such an ugly word. But then she said she's looking for things that bring people out of deep coma.

 

[lawstudent]

The situation is sad - many parents would not be reasonable under such circumstances, especially if they have certain religious beliefs. I hope they eventually come to terms with reality.

 

[mck16]

Did you notice how thin her fingers were and how small her little wrist was in the picture of the manicure? jmo