Fatal Friends, Deadly Neighbors: Ann Rule's Crime Files

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I teach critical thinking @ the adult ed.- college level and as part of our work we often examine court case arguments and evidence. I also teach them that any good argument must address ( and solve) counter arguments.

This mod. one of my students is an EMT with over 10 years experience on ambulances in the NY Metro area ( and the night before had a call on a suicide- 38 male). I was discussing this case with him after class. He said a few things that have really made me think- which pertain to this case.

He said that he been to many many suicide scenes- 3 suicide by hangings calls. In all three cases the suicide was naked. 2/3 were naked women. all 3 did lose control of bowels. HE said this is always the case- as he has experienced. HE also said that 2 of them were both naked and bound with ropes. ( he said loose ropes - do tighten force of body weight and gravity ) hmmm:-(

Until now I was in the camp and firm belief that no woman would kill herself naked and that was evidence to support the belief that she was murdered.

I was also in the camp that her religious upbringing would inhibit her views of suicide as a possibility. The same student stated...if she was so distraught-at ms accident- she possibly would have questioned " how could there even be a god if such tragedy exists in the world" Hmmm another one of my favorite arguments dashed.

However, There were key aspects of the case for murder- though that he pointed out were present.

lividity /ligature marks /hair
When he heard lividity in her back and not her legs and feet- His opinion changed and he changed his tune immediately. As we have discussed many times in this forum. He said - the over the top evidence that she did not commit suicide was !-lividity in her back and not in her feet. HE said that this happens immediately- and that if she did hang herself the lividity would be in her feet- not her back due to the lead content in human blood.

HE surmised that she died in a horizontal position and lividity may have set in in such a way that the perps...could not manage the former plan to make it appear that she had hung herself. Between her weight and stiffening- they could possibly not even have gotten the noose into the position to hang her at all. Which may have caused conflicting damage to her neck. This has really made me think ( I also have a long commute) maybe they were dragging her around to try to position her and that is how her feet became caked with mud.

He also mentioned the presence of ligature marks ( as evidence murder not suicide) and paused a very long time in consideration of her long hair underneath it all.

He also said any body functions present at the scene of a death, on the victim are detailed in EMS and Police reports. and found it odd that if this was suicide- by hanging from length of rope there would be.

I though these were very interesting perspectives from the student a very very critical -" critical thinker"

Thank you for letting me share these thoughts on both sides.
Praying for justice for BeckyZ

That is excellent to have a perspective from an actual EMT on noose-hanging & naked suiciders.

I appreciate the EMT's comments, particular that about lividity found on Becky's back and not her lower legs/feet, and also about defecation subsequent to a hanging. Do you think it is possible that the murderers strangled Becky first while Becky was in a horizontal position. Perhaps they had the t-shirt or noose around her neck along with hogtie of her hands and feet while dragging her on her back from the courtyard into the house? Maybe she had tried to run and murderers caught her. Hence her dirty feet from running in courtyard with wet feet after her shower.

Then murderers carried a semi-unconscious/dead Becky up the stairs to murder room, and lifted prints/DNA off her by using adhesive tape and transferring the DNA onto strategic locations in the room to give the illusion that Becky touched the items, e.g., bed post, ropes, paintbrushes, etc.?

If Becky was still half-conscious, maybe murderers interrogated her about Max's accident.

This suicide staging likely took a while so lividity on Becky's back settled there. And that may be why she did not defecate. She was already long dead and her biological/physiological functions stopped already?

Then they tossed Becky over balcony and went to courtyard to further stage the scene by swinging her to and fro -- as in "The Housemaid" movie. The murderers had to have sick minds to orchestrate all this, so they went overboard in their staging and threw in everything -- multiple pairs of gloves, several paintbrushes, several knives, etc.

Maybe they even thought of setting Becky on fire, but decided nudity and hanging by noose in public courtyard would have more gross, melodramatic effect reminiscent of shameful public hangings so they decided against immolation. Just thinking aloud.
 
That is excellent to have a perspective from an actual EMT on noose-hanging & naked suiciders.

I appreciate the EMT's comments, particular that about lividity found on Becky's back and not her lower legs/feet, and also about defecation subsequent to a hanging. Do you think it is possible that the murderers strangled Becky first while Becky was in a horizontal position. Perhaps they had the t-shirt or noose around her neck along with hogtie of her hands and feet while dragging her on her back from the courtyard into the house? Maybe she had tried to run and murderers caught her. Hence her dirty feet from running in courtyard with wet feet after her shower.

Then murderers carried a semi-unconscious/dead Becky up the stairs to murder room, and lifted prints/DNA off her by using adhesive tape and transferring the DNA onto strategic locations in the room to give the illusion that Becky touched the items, e.g., bed post, ropes, paintbrushes, etc.?

If Becky was still half-conscious, maybe murderers interrogated her about Max's accident.

This suicide staging likely took a while so lividity on Becky's back settled there. And that may be why she did not defecate. She was already long dead and her biological/physiological functions stopped already?

Then they tossed Becky over balcony and went to courtyard to further stage the scene by swinging her to and fro -- as in "The Housemaid" movie. The murderers had to have sick minds to orchestrate all this, so they went overboard in their staging and threw in everything -- multiple pairs of gloves, several paintbrushes, several knives, etc.

Maybe they even thought of setting Becky on fire, but decided nudity and hanging by noose in public courtyard would have more gross, melodramatic effect reminiscent of shameful public hangings so they decided against immolation. Just thinking aloud.

He thought "yes, strangled first" and was really doubting that she was ever hung up there for very long if at all. And not alive when they did ( because lividity apparently happens that quickly and no bodily functions which always appear every time with hangings)So They tried ( to make it look like hanging )but they couldn't do it? And so they tied it all up with a shirt to cover the evidence of their bungling the plan?

The other thing that i personally have been thinking about a lot is that phone call. I feel like that call might have come at a very significant moment in the timeline. Maybe it was during the attack or inquisition. Maybe it decided her fate in the perp's mind and justified the rest of their motive/actions. Which might have led them to retrace their steps- to the phone- to delete the call...and to plant other evidence - computers and in the balcony room.:waitasec:
Also...just thinking out loud.

Maybe I will try to get the student to join the site- I believe several already have.
 
I agree. I think Becky's murderers had "The Housemaid" video in their possession for a long time and may have been plotting Becky's demise ever since. The coincidences between video and real life of character in movie falling from 2nd floor balcony and hanging/swinging off a chandelier and breaking her neck to Max's fall, a character hopping off 2nd floor balcony and hanging in a noose to Rebecca being hung with a noose from a 2nd story balcony, and now, according to yours and another poster's description that the original 1960 Housemaid video even had a child falling and dying which seems to parallel Max's fatal fall, are too creepy.

Can all these elements from the movie just be coincidences to what happened in real life to Max and Becky? Maybe Max's fall was mere coincidence. But I think the hanging of Becky with a noose was most certainly not.

Becky's murderers premeditated killing Becky with a public hanging to mimic the video. If only investigators would do a search into WHO purchased "The Housemaid" video. I firmly believe that whoever purchased the video is/are the murderers of Becky.

Or....who knew of someone else's weakness for such 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬 and used that intimate knowledge as a way to make them look like POI's and or frame them for the murder. (?)

For the record: I am very on the fence with regard to who the Perp is singular / probably plural. What I am not on the fence about is that RZ ( may she rest in peace) was murdered an there was a corrupt miscarriage of justice in SD in July 2011
 
He thought "yes, strangled first" and was really doubting that she was ever hung up there for very long if at all. And not alive when they did ( because lividity apparently happens that quickly and no bodily functions which always appear every time with hangings)So They tried ( to make it look like hanging )but they couldn't do it? And so they tied it all up with a shirt to cover the evidence of their bungling the plan?

The other thing that i personally have been thinking about a lot is that phone call. I feel like that call might have come at a very significant moment in the timeline. Maybe it was during the attack or inquisition. Maybe it decided her fate in the perp's mind and justified the rest of their motive/actions. Which might have led them to retrace their steps- to the phone- to delete the call...and to plant other evidence - computers and in the balcony room.:waitasec:
Also...just thinking out loud.

Maybe I will try to get the student to join the site- I believe several already have.

Do you think Becky was strangled with bare hands first and then tied with t-shirt? Interesting because we know that Jonah reported that Dina had her hands around his neck during one of their many physical altercations.

Re: phone call. Are you referring to Jonah's phone call at 11:38pm Tues? It would appear that Becky's phone had been powered off before that time because the call is not recorded on Becky's phone bill.

Maybe when the murderers powered up Becky's phone to listen to Jonah's messages -- my view is that only someone who had strong personal attachment feelings for Jonah would want to hear Becky's voicemails and delete Jonah's VM in particular -- the murderers heard Jonah telling Rebecca that Max was likely not going to make it and Jonah might even have left affectionate words such as "I love you. I know you tried to save Max by doing CPR..." and Jonah's words angered the murderers even more so they decided to paint the words "SHE SAVED HIM CAN YOU SAVE HER" on the door. But I think it's more likely Jonah had right from the start at the hospital told Dina that Becky tried to save Max by giving him CPR, and that was what set off the already jealous, bitter, intoxicated ex-wife. Just my speculation.

That'd be excellent to have your critical thinking students join and participate here. Would love to hear more opinions regarding this case :)
 
Do you think Becky was strangled with bare hands first and then tied with t-shirt? Interesting because we know that Jonah reported that Dina had her hands around his neck during one of their many physical altercations.

Re: phone call. Are you referring to Jonah's phone call at 11:38pm Tues? It would appear that Becky's phone had been powered off before that time because the call is not recorded on Becky's phone bill.

Maybe when the murderers powered up Becky's phone to listen to Jonah's messages -- my view is that only someone who had strong personal attachment feelings for Jonah would want to hear Becky's voicemails and delete Jonah's VM in particular -- the murderers heard Jonah telling Rebecca that Max was likely not going to make it and Jonah might even have left affectionate words such as "I love you. I know you tried to save Max by doing CPR..." and Jonah's words angered the murderers even more so they decided to paint the words "SHE SAVED HIM CAN YOU SAVE HER" on the door. But I think it's more likely Jonah had right from the start at the hospital told Dina that Becky tried to save Max by giving him CPR, and that was what set off the already jealous, bitter, intoxicated ex-wife. Just my speculation.

That'd be excellent to have your critical thinking students join and participate here. Would love to hear more opinions regarding this case :)


Wasn't there evidence of a ligature mark on her neck - one that was thinner than the rope made?
 
Checked with a local video sales/rental place, "Kensington Video", which is near Balboa Park, and they don't have either version of "The Housemaid" for purchase or rental.........and they have a pretty extensive foreign film collection.
 
Do you think Becky was strangled with bare hands first and then tied with t-shirt? Interesting because we know that Jonah reported that Dina had her hands around his neck during one of their many physical altercations.

Re: phone call. Are you referring to Jonah's phone call at 11:38pm Tues? It would appear that Becky's phone had been powered off before that time because the call is not recorded on Becky's phone bill.

Maybe when the murderers powered up Becky's phone to listen to Jonah's messages -- my view is that only someone who had strong personal attachment feelings for Jonah would want to hear Becky's voicemails and delete Jonah's VM in particular -- the murderers heard Jonah telling Rebecca that Max was likely not going to make it and Jonah might even have left affectionate words such as "I love you. I know you tried to save Max by doing CPR..." and Jonah's words angered the murderers even more so they decided to paint the words "SHE SAVED HIM CAN YOU SAVE HER" on the door. But I think it's more likely Jonah had right from the start at the hospital told Dina that Becky tried to save Max by giving him CPR, and that was what set off the already jealous, bitter, intoxicated ex-wife. Just my speculation.

That'd be excellent to have your critical thinking students join and participate here. Would love to hear more opinions regarding this case :)

Yes, I (JMO) have always believed RZ was strangled with bare hands- before everything. I'm wondering if she was attacked upstairs in the hall. I think the tape ( we only read as residue) water ski rope, t shirt were all done elaborately afterwards. I truly don't believe that she was (ever) hanging from the balcony ( sorry AS's account re. cutting her down) Someone mentioned over staging a crime scene. They couldn't drop hang her from the balcony because of lividity they possibly opted to stage her body on the grass with elaborate ropes. As well as rearranging certain key pieces of furniture inside- upstairs. Maybe they even took a shower.

I will have to go back and look at the phone records again. I don't ever think RZ ever heard that message. Maybe she tried to run for the phone and the perp - grabbed it and turned it off. Then went back to power it on and deleted whatever messages came in after a certain time.

TY we spoke about the case again tonight ( I wanted to tell the student that i had shared his views here) and now the rest of the ( very small) class of medical assistants are pretty interested. I will bring it up again.
 
Yes, I (JMO) have always believed RZ was strangled with bare hands- before everything. I'm wondering if she was attacked upstairs in the hall. I think the tape ( we only read as residue) water ski rope, t shirt were all done elaborately afterwards. I truly don't believe that she was (ever) hanging from the balcony ( sorry AS's account re. cutting her down) Someone mentioned over staging a crime scene. They couldn't drop hang her from the balcony because of lividity they possibly opted to stage her body on the grass with elaborate ropes. As well as rearranging certain key pieces of furniture inside- upstairs. Maybe they even took a shower.

I will have to go back and look at the phone records again. I don't ever think RZ ever heard that message. Maybe she tried to run for the phone and the perp - grabbed it and turned it off. Then went back to power it on and deleted whatever messages came in after a certain time.

TY we spoke about the case again tonight ( I wanted to tell the student that i had shared his views here) and now the rest of the ( very small) class of medical assistants are pretty interested. I will bring it up again.

I agree with you, except I think that Rebecca was ambushed in the guest house......it was a habit of hers to say "good night" to house guests in both the PV and Spreckels guest houses...........I think that they (the killer(s)), waited for her there..........the rest is history.
 
I agree with you, except I think that Rebecca was ambushed in the guest house......it was a habit of hers to say "good night" to house guests in both the PV and Spreckels guest houses...........I think that they (the killer(s)), waited for her there..........the rest is history.

Question...Did Becky go around barefoot all the time? would she have gone to the guest house that night -barefoot-to say " good night"?
 
Yes, I (JMO) have always believed RZ was strangled with bare hands- before everything. I'm wondering if she was attacked upstairs in the hall. I think the tape ( we only read as residue) water ski rope, t shirt were all done elaborately afterwards. I truly don't believe that she was (ever) hanging from the balcony ( sorry AS's account re. cutting her down) Someone mentioned over staging a crime scene. They couldn't drop hang her from the balcony because of lividity they possibly opted to stage her body on the grass with elaborate ropes. As well as rearranging certain key pieces of furniture inside- upstairs. Maybe they even took a shower.

I will have to go back and look at the phone records again. I don't ever think RZ ever heard that message. Maybe she tried to run for the phone and the perp - grabbed it and turned it off. Then went back to power it on and deleted whatever messages came in after a certain time.

TY we spoke about the case again tonight ( I wanted to tell the student that i had shared his views here) and now the rest of the ( very small) class of medical assistants are pretty interested. I will bring it up again.

I can see some of what you say happening but I don't think the murderers would take showers at the Spreckels mansion while undertaking a kill of Becky. That would mean they risk leaving their DNA/prints all over the showers and facilities, in addition to possibly already leaving their DNA/prints in the murder room and murder instruments (knives, ropes, paintbrushes, bed, doorknob, etc.) I think showering at the crime scene would be too much of a risk for the murderers, and why shower at the Spreckels when they can simply go home or to a hotel afterwards to shower?

The murderers must have taken hours to stage and kill Becky. That leads me to think that they felt they would not get caught. So if the murderer is not Adam, they had to have known Adam would sleep through the night. I am wondering if they were aware that Adam regularly takes Ambien or that he'd be constantly indisposed with headphones to his Iphone, maybe even knowing full well that he's addicted to watching 🤬🤬🤬🤬 on his phone, so that Adam would be too preoccupied and unable to hear while wearing headphones to notice the going-ons at the main house at Spreckels?

I'm also inclined as you to think that Becky was not the one who heard the VM on her cellphone. I think by that time she was already bound up, and may already have been dead.
 
Wasn't there evidence of a ligature mark on her neck - one that was thinner than the rope made?

There was a thinner ligature mark than that made by the hanging noose on Becky's neck. I don't think that was made by someone's hands. Do you think that thinner mark was made by t-shirt or something else, like the cut chandelier chain?

I'd think it would be easy for forensic investigators or the ME to note that it was the chandelier chain that made the thinner ligature mark because aren't chandelier chains composed of links that would have made link impressions on Becky's neck if it were used to strangle her? So I lean towards the thinner mark being made by t-shirt.
 
Yes, I (JMO) have always believed RZ was strangled with bare hands- before everything. I'm wondering if she was attacked upstairs in the hall. I think the tape ( we only read as residue) water ski rope, t shirt were all done elaborately afterwards. I truly don't believe that she was (ever) hanging from the balcony ( sorry AS's account re. cutting her down) Someone mentioned over staging a crime scene. They couldn't drop hang her from the balcony because of lividity they possibly opted to stage her body on the grass with elaborate ropes. As well as rearranging certain key pieces of furniture inside- upstairs. Maybe they even took a shower.

I will have to go back and look at the phone records again. I don't ever think RZ ever heard that message. Maybe she tried to run for the phone and the perp - grabbed it and turned it off. Then went back to power it on and deleted whatever messages came in after a certain time.

TY we spoke about the case again tonight ( I wanted to tell the student that i had shared his views here) and now the rest of the ( very small) class of medical assistants are pretty interested. I will bring it up again.

BBM I was just wondering about the same thing! Only one person claims that she was hanging, and that he cut her down. There is really no proof that she was ever hanging at all! I feel he must have been involved some how. The 911 call sounded so strange. Bad acting IMO. Who asks someone if they are alive? What did he think she was going to do, sit up and say yes, or was he expecting a no answer? I just found that statement to be totally ridiculous.

Here's another thought: Going on the assumption that AS was involved, what if RZ's murder (not much of an assumption IMO) had nothing to do with MS's accident? It seems like the obvious motive, but maybe it was just a coincidence. Is it possibe a jealous brother wanted something the other had? Or wanted to take something away from the other? Was there a grudge AS had against JS? The lifestyles of the two couldn't be farther apart. Surely there must have been some jealousy on the part of AS.

We know he's into 🤬🤬🤬🤬, but do we really know what type? Could be the regular type, or it could be the really, really sick stuff. Maybe he was playing out some kind of sick fantasy and getting back at JS at the same time.

Another thing that strikes me as incredibly odd is the text AS sent JS. Who tells their brother that his girlfriend hung herself and is dead in a text message? That strikes me as being terribly cold and cruel (unless the receiver was expecting it). In person would be the ideal way, a phone call is bad enough, but a text message? Seriously? :waitasec:
 
K_Z, I remember you saying this before. How long of a drop would it need to be to be consistent with the findings, i.e., could she have dropped from the inside balcony or from something higher outside. Or is the main point that it was a drop? Sorry, I'm fishing. Do you think the evidence on the balcony, dust, footprints, etc, supports her going over.
FYI: On Dec. 3, 2012, in Los Angeles, a man who hung himself from a parking garage was decapitated in the process:

>>>snip

Police: suicide suspected in decapitation death
The Associated Press
Published: Monday, Dec. 3, 2012

...Irwin says it appears the man committed suicide by jumping off of the building because there was blood found on the building and because of the way his body was lying in the bushes.

Though all indications point to suicide, Irwin says homicide has not been ruled out and investigators are keeping their minds open...

...

<<<snip

Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/2012/12/03/5028343/decapitated-body-found-near-la.html#storylink=cpy

Bold mine.
Sigh.
 
FYI: On Dec. 3, 2012, in Los Angeles, a man who hung himself from a parking garage was decapitated in the process:

>>>snip

Police: suicide suspected in decapitation death
The Associated Press
Published: Monday, Dec. 3, 2012

...Irwin says it appears the man committed suicide by jumping off of the building because there was blood found on the building and because of the way his body was lying in the bushes.

Though all indications point to suicide, Irwin says homicide has not been ruled out and investigators are keeping their minds open...

...

<<<snip

Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/2012/12/03/5028343/decapitated-body-found-near-la.html#storylink=cpy

Bold mine.
Sigh.


Terrible. The 9+ ft drop/rope for Rebecca seems unusually long for a suicide (although the man in the article could have been a lot longer). Maybe we have been through this before, but it seems the rope would stretch also - wonder if anyone in forensics could look at that rope an make any determinations, e.g., at least verify she dropped that far? Maybe not, but it still seems improbable to me that anyone would purposefully calculate a rope so long that with error and stretch, they could possibly hit the ground.

Of course, my original question is how much damage would be expected with that much of a drop?
 
Ok, I'm rethinking the rope length and hanging. Sorry if this seems morbid. The smaller you are, I think the longer the rope had to be. Has anyone calculated the length per RZ's weight?

Prior to 1892, the drop was between four and ten feet (about one to three metres), depending on the weight of the body, and was calculated to deliver a force of 1,260 lbf (5,600 newtons or 572 kgf), which fractured the neck at either the 2nd and 3rd or 4th and 5th cervical vertebrae. However, this force resulted in some decapitations... Between 1892 and 1913, the length of the drop was shortened to avoid decapitation. After 1913, other factors were also taken into account, and the force delivered was reduced to about 1,000 lbf (4,400 N or 450 kgf). (wiki)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanging
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Official_Table_of_Drops"]Official Table of Drops - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

If Rebecca didn't research anything on committing suicide or hanging, how would she know how long to make the rope. The above table seems to say the rope length should be ~ 8+ ft. I had no idea it would take this long of rope. But that length is calculated to fracture the neck and avoid decapitation. Rebecca's neck was not fractured was it?

"We have no fracture of the cervical vertebrae [neck]," said Wecht.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/coronado-mansion-death-rebecca-zahau-knocked-unconscious/story?id=14955832

I wonder if it's possible she was hung from below, but had a longer drop than from the table and shorter than from the balcony or hung from somewhere else. This would account for K_Z opinion still being correct and other also? Sorry, as you can see I am no expert.
 
I can see some of what you say happening but I don't think the murderers would take showers at the Spreckels mansion while undertaking a kill of Becky. That would mean they risk leaving their DNA/prints all over the showers and facilities, in addition to possibly already leaving their DNA/prints in the murder room and murder instruments (knives, ropes, paintbrushes, bed, doorknob, etc.) I think showering at the crime scene would be too much of a risk for the murderers, and why shower at the Spreckels when they can simply go home or to a hotel afterwards to shower?

The murderers must have taken hours to stage and kill Becky. That leads me to think that they felt they would not get caught. So if the murderer is not Adam, they had to have known Adam would sleep through the night. I am wondering if they were aware that Adam regularly takes Ambien or that he'd be constantly indisposed with headphones to his Iphone, maybe even knowing full well that he's addicted to watching 🤬🤬🤬🤬 on his phone, so that Adam would be too preoccupied and unable to hear while wearing headphones to notice the going-ons at the main house at Spreckels?

I'm also inclined as you to think that Becky was not the one who heard the VM on her cellphone. I think by that time she was already bound up, and may already have been dead.

I totally agree and see what you mean. I think it took hours...and they had plenty of time. I go back in forth thinking she was either surprised inside or outside the shower - in the hall. Which is why there was a towel on the floor and blood....and thinking maybe the perp was the one bleeding, and who lost a clump of hair (from rz fighting back) and much later took not a full shower but maybe ran the water a little shower clean themselves up a little...leaving the towel in the hall.


Would RZ even have showered in that shower anyway?
And, Do we know what RZ was last seen wearing?

As far as As possibly not ever" cutting her down" So much of what we think we know in this case is because " everyone" said so. AS said this and NR said That...Jonah .....Dina.... As if they are all facts, but they are not. They were accepted by LE hook- line and sinker with very little evidence, records, tapes, timestamps. ( ahh to have a good lawyer who is BFF with LE) Because....they all said so...he said - she said. And that is how so far this perp or perps seems to be getting away with murder.
To this day-still fueling the fire of contempt and misery trying to smear RZ's name and memory as part of their continuing plots at self protection.

My own opinions of course.

"I try to make my words sweet and tender, because I never know when I will have to eat them. "
 
I totally agree and see what you mean. I think it took hours...and they had plenty of time. I go back in forth thinking she was either surprised inside or outside the shower - in the hall. Which is why there was a towel on the floor and blood....and thinking maybe the perp was the one bleeding, and who lost a clump of hair (from rz fighting back) and much later took not a full shower but maybe ran the water a little shower clean themselves up a little...leaving the towel in the hall.


Would RZ even have showered in that shower anyway?
And, Do we know what RZ was last seen wearing?

As far as As possibly not ever" cutting her down" So much of what we think we know in this case is because " everyone" said so. AS said this and NR said That...Jonah .....Dina.... As if they are all facts, but they are not. They were accepted by LE hook- line and sinker with very little evidence, records, tapes, timestamps. ( ahh to have a good lawyer who is BFF with LE) Because....they all said so...he said - she said. And that is how so far this perp or perps seems to be getting away with murder.
To this day-still fueling the fire of contempt and misery trying to smear RZ's name and memory as part of their continuing plots at self protection.

My own opinions of course.

"I try to make my words sweet and tender, because I never know when I will have to eat them. "

Did the police collect the towel from the murder room? If yes, then I assume they tested it and found only Becky's DNA on it?

Do we know which bedroom shower the police said Becky showered in? I had always assumed it was the master bedroom and not the murder bedroom.

I don't think we know what Becky was last seen wearing. It would be excellent if that restaurant she ate with Jonah, Luber and Adam had cameras and the videos were available for us to see what exactly all these people had worn Tues night.

I agree that much of this case has rested upon what witnesses/POIs said to the police, and that were were very little solid supportive physical evidence other than their verbal testimonies and Adam's inconclusive polygraph to indicate that they were telling the truth. I also agree about Gore and his team as well as Dina and her sister getting fired up with public PR campaigns to protect themselves.
 
BBM I was just wondering about the same thing! Only one person claims that she was hanging, and that he cut her down. There is really no proof that she was ever hanging at all! I feel he must have been involved some how. The 911 call sounded so strange. Bad acting IMO. Who asks someone if they are alive? What did he think she was going to do, sit up and say yes, or was he expecting a no answer? I just found that statement to be totally ridiculous.

Here's another thought: Going on the assumption that AS was involved, what if RZ's murder (not much of an assumption IMO) had nothing to do with MS's accident? It seems like the obvious motive, but maybe it was just a coincidence. Is it possibe a jealous brother wanted something the other had? Or wanted to take something away from the other? Was there a grudge AS had against JS? The lifestyles of the two couldn't be farther apart. Surely there must have been some jealousy on the part of AS.

We know he's into 🤬🤬🤬🤬, but do we really know what type? Could be the regular type, or it could be the really, really sick stuff. Maybe he was playing out some kind of sick fantasy and getting back at JS at the same time.

Another thing that strikes me as incredibly odd is the text AS sent JS. Who tells their brother that his girlfriend hung herself and is dead in a text message? That strikes me as being terribly cold and cruel (unless the receiver was expecting it). In person would be the ideal way, a phone call is bad enough, but a text message? Seriously? :waitasec:

I think there is some evidence that Becky was thrown over the balcony as reviewed by MEs -- both in San Diego and Dr. Wecht -- based on the extensive damage suggestive of a hanging to her throat area. There was also a second thin ligature mark that also suggested possible strangulation that was done not by the rope noose. The extent of Becky's torn neck area and the multiple ligature marks suggest to me that she was both strangled and tossed over the balcony like a piece of garbage by the perps.

As I've said before, I'm still on the fence about Adam's involvement in Becky's murder. One thing I am 100% positive of is that Becky was murdered. Based on all the available physical evidence, she did not commit suicide.

If you listen to the 911 tape made by Adam from a neutral perspective, and from the understanding that Adam may have some social deficits -- awkwardness in answering questions and inappropriate replies to questions -- you might be able to see that in a state of uncertainty, shock, and ignorance about how to handle a hanging (I'm assuming he found Becky hanging as he stated to cops), and the fact that the 911 operator asked him if Becky were still alive, he simply repeated what the operator asked, "Are you alive" to Becky, rather than fully comprehending the ramifications of his questions to a probably already dead Becky.

Also, I do recall from my own personal CPR training, that the first thing we were instructed to always ask a possible victim is "Are you okay?" and pat them on their shoulders in case they were only sleeping or they were semi-conscious. "Are you okay" may be analogous to "Are you alive" in Adam's mind at that time. IDK

I think from those of us looking in from the outside, because of Jonah's wealth and professional success vs. that of Adam's, based on purely societal's definitions of success, we see that there may be some jealousy of Adam towards Jonah. But then, I also think, that socioeconomic status is not all that defines a genuinely successful, happy person, and some people, perhaps Adam, might have recognized his own limitations and did not feel the need to compare himself with Jonah's financial success. So unless we have some proof in the form of personal testimonies from Adam's friends or even family members, I think we should give him the benefit of the doubt that he might not have been jealous of Jonah.

Also based on what Ann Rule wrote, that Jonah always invited Adam to family functions, and Adam seemed to always attend, and there was no mention of any conflicts at these functions, I think it is safe to say that Adam likely did not resent nor was he jealous of Jonah. I can be wrong, but I'd like to see some evidence of Adam's resentment towards Jonah before automatically casting him as a jealous, resentful brother to Jonah.

Re: Adam texting Jonah. It appears this family seems to text more than make voice calls to each other. But I understand what you're saying, because generally when there's an emergency, we want to make sure the other person we're calling hears the exact message regarding the crisis rather than text them in words. But in this case, given Adam's awkward words and conduct, maybe Adam felt more comfortable texting than voicing the incident. Maybe he feared he'd say the wrong thing orally, but texting felt safer and more accurate to him. I'm just thinking aloud.

I don't think Adam would admit to viewing 🤬🤬🤬🤬 on his Iphone if he knew Becky's computer had been accessed the day before for Asian anime bondage/lesbian 🤬🤬🤬🤬. But it'd be most helpful if we were given the types of 🤬🤬🤬🤬 Adam engages in regularly. If he does watch the same type of 🤬🤬🤬🤬 found on Becky's computer, then perhaps he is involved in Becky's murder. On the other hand, it could also mean that the perps knew about Adam's propensity towards a specific type of Asian 🤬🤬🤬🤬 and decided to frame him as a patsy. LOL IDK, I'm still on the fence regarding Adam.
 
FYI: On Dec. 3, 2012, in Los Angeles, a man who hung himself from a parking garage was decapitated in the process:

>>>snip

Police: suicide suspected in decapitation death
The Associated Press
Published: Monday, Dec. 3, 2012

...Irwin says it appears the man committed suicide by jumping off of the building because there was blood found on the building and because of the way his body was lying in the bushes.

Though all indications point to suicide, Irwin says homicide has not been ruled out and investigators are keeping their minds open...

...

<<<snip

Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/2012/12/03/5028343/decapitated-body-found-near-la.html#storylink=cpy

Bold mine.
Sigh.

Well, I'm glad this victim's death hasn't automatically been ruled as a suicide and the police are leaving open the possibility for homicide. Shows that some police outside of Coronado have some sensibilities and reason abilities. I wonder if it would have been different if they found this victim hanging from a noose the same way Becky was alleged to have been found?
 
Ok, I'm rethinking the rope length and hanging. Sorry if this seems morbid. The smaller you are, I think the longer the rope had to be. Has anyone calculated the length per RZ's weight?

Official Table of Drops - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If Rebecca didn't research anything on committing suicide or hanging, how would she know how long to make the rope. The above table seems to say the rope length should be ~ 8+ ft. I had no idea it would take this long of rope. But that length is calculated to fracture the neck and avoid decapitation. Rebecca's neck was not fractured was it?

"We have no fracture of the cervical vertebrae [neck]," said Wecht.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/coronado-mansion-death-rebecca-zahau-knocked-unconscious/story?id=14955832

I wonder if it's possible she was hung from below, but had a longer drop than from the table and shorter than from the balcony or hung from somewhere else. This would account for K_Z opinion still being correct and other also? Sorry, as you can see I am no expert.

Honestly, I don't think the murderers performed complex calculations regarding how long a rope had to be for Becky to sustain a long hangman's drop. I think they likely just estimated the length of rope required and saw it was long enough, and put noose around Becky's neck and threw her over.
 
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