Fencesitters & Not Guilty Post Here - THREAD NO. 2

[AfterMidnight]

Interesting interview with Dr Baden on Greta yesterday.

He said they would have known within ten minutes of testing "Madeleine's" hair found in the car whether it was from a live Madeleine or a dead Madeleine.
Do the Portuguese police already know this?
They have said they don't know whether Madeleine is dead.

I know some things are still being tested but If Dr Baden is right the hair test wouldn't have taken this long.

Nothing concrete should have taken this long. There is something stinky here, from the parents to the police.

 

[april4sky]

Madeleine McCann: Police cheif breaks silence

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/09/23/nmaddy123.xml&CMP=ILC-mostviewedbox

To a tight trio of trusted colleagues he had confided that he was ''unhappy" about the inquiry and ''exasperated" with the constant leaks from junior officers who, in exchange for extravagant meals, were willing to either reveal snippets of confidential information, or to embroider vague facts if they felt that was what their moles in the Portuguese media wanted.

He believes that the concerted fightback by the McCanns will reveal that, for all the police posturing when they named the couple as suspects, their evidence was at best flimsy, at worst supposition. ''He has told me he always worried that the evidence against the McCanns was weak," says one former policeman. ''He was worried it would not bear scrutiny."
He has complained that while fellow officers were leaking information illegally — Portugal has strict secrecy laws — the same officers would instruct him to deny the stories when printed. The problem for Sousa was that the denials rarely got into the media.

The result has been endless column inches slandering the McCanns. ''Some Portuguese journalists were fairly convinced the so-called evidence passed on to them by police was nowhere near as concrete as their sources suggested," says Jose Lugios, a freelance reporter based in the Algarve.

Such lax practice has shocked even the country's politicians. ''The leaks to the press of some details that are supposed to be classified have been used as an easy way to manipulate and shape public opinion," says Francisco Louçã, leader of a Portuguese opposition party.

 

[april4sky]

Damned if they do!!!
Anger of Potuguese authorities on the hiring of private investigators.
Beats me why!!! I know it's against their laws but if as stated the investigaters are not on the ground in Portugal.........Mmmmmm
Posters here have said many times the McCanns should have hired private investigaters. Now we know the Portuguese system makes that impossible.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../nmaddy125.xml


Kate and Gerry McCann provoked the fury of the Portuguese authorities after it was revealed they had hired private investigators to help find their daughter Madeleine.
A source close to the couple's legal team insisted they were only working in an advisory role and were not on the ground in Portugal.
But the company – which employs ex-SAS and military personnel – is thought to be focusing on Spain and Morocco, where three sightings of a little blonde girl have now been reported.
In Portugal, figures from both the police and judicial arenas vented their anger about the move.

 

[colomom]

CRG's four main operating areas are: Political and security risk analysis, confidential investigations, security consultancy, and crisis response. The majority of their clients are large multi-nationals; they state that more than 90 per cent of the FTSE 100 use one or more of their services.

"Confidential Investigations"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_Risks_Group

and their website

http://www.crg.com/default.aspx?page=2

 

[wtsn5]

Not sure where else to write this - but as I am a fence sitter though of no better place.

I just wish the individual who did whatever to Madeleine just lets the world know somehow so we can either bury the child or pray she is safe. This not knowing is killing me. I pray she is found safe and sound but the longer she is missing I just don't think it is possible.

Talk about emotional rollercoaster she isn't even my child but that picture gave so much hope, I can't even describe how upsetting it was to find out it wasn't her. So I can understand how the parents wouldn't want to jump all over every sighting. The let down really sucks.

Let's remind ourselves no matter what side of the fence we are on we all have the same agenda and that is find out what happend to Madeleine McCann.

 

[april4sky]

Not sure where else to write this - but as I am a fence sitter though of no better place.

I just wish the individual who did whatever to Madeleine just lets the world know somehow so we can either bury the child or pray she is safe. This not knowing is killing me. I pray she is found safe and sound but the longer she is missing I just don't think it is possible.

Talk about emotional rollercoaster she isn't even my child but that picture gave so much hope, I can't even describe how upsetting it was to find out it wasn't her. So I can understand how the parents wouldn't want to jump all over every sighting. The let down really sucks.

Let's remind ourselves no matter what side of the fence we are on we all have the same agenda and that is find out what happend to Madeleine McCann.

I agree wtsn5. It did feel like a roller coaster ride yesterday. It was so disapointing it wasn't Madeleine, for us as well as her parents.

The McCanns were advised early on by the authorities not to get their hopes up at the many reported sighting of Madeleine. But to let them be investigated first so that their hopes were not constantly raised and then dashed. This was to save them from the added stress such a roller coaster ride would have on them.

 

[april4sky]

Short preview of tonights documentary program about Madeleine's disappearance.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,91210-1286358,00.html

For those who have complained about the McCanns not showing emotion. It's very clear here.

 

[christine2448]

Short preview of tonights documentary program about Madeleine's disappearance.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,91210-1286358,00.html

For those who have complained about the McCanns not showing emotion. It's very clear here.

What is clear, emotion or lack of? I just watched, was curious to what you meant.

 

[april4sky]

What is clear, emotion or lack of? I just watched, was curious to what you meant.

When Gerry was appealing for news of Madeleine it was clear, to me anyway that he was feeling very emotional.

 

[christine2448]

When Gerry was appealing for news of Madeleine it was clear, to me anyway that he was feeling very emotional.

Oh TY, I agree. A few times they seems emotional/upset/tired, as expected. I was just wondering what YOU were thinking. I still just don't know...I go back and forth on their involvement. They certianly must carry some of the blame, but did THEY have something to do with Maddie's disappearance and/or death? I just am not convinced, right now :crazy: :crazy:

 

[SleuthMom]

When Gerry was appealing for news of Madeleine it was clear, to me anyway that he was feeling very emotional.

People get emotional for so many reasons, including guilt.

 

[christine2448]

People get emotional for so many reasons, including guilt.

Excellent point! :crazy:

 

[april4sky]

Scientist says 'no evidence' against Madeleine's parents

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=484969&in_page_id=1770

Robin Hoole, who worked for the FSS laboratory in Birmingham, said Portuguese police will need something "substantially stronger than scientific evidence" to prove a case against her parents.

He warned that the four-year-old's DNA found in the hire car or apartment would not be enough to implicate them in her disappearance.

"There would have to be some hard evidence against the McCanns, other than forensic evidence, to implicate them in her disappearance. From what we know, there doesn't seem to be much of a case against them.

"It is not unusual Madeleine's DNA came to be in the apartment. Finding DNA in a place we know she has been is not even worth talking about.

This comes only days after the FSS accused Portuguese police of "exaggerating" the evidence it has.

 

[christine2448]

Nothing concrete should have taken this long. There is something stinky here, from the parents to the police.

Amen to that! The smell is all around on this one!

At this point, it's been 3 months, all I really care about is where is the child and what is being done to find her!

 

[Pinkhammer]

1. We do not know whether or not the Portuguese investigators have received the test results, or only partial results at this time. They are holding that onformation close to the vest, with good reason.

2. Why do the Portuguese police have to "answer any questions"? They are not the ones under investigation.

3. "They have said they don't know whether Madeleine is dead."

They have also said that this is not a kidnapping investigation.

4. All good investigators hold a considerable amount of information back from the suspects and from the general public. First, they want to save crucial info for the trial. Second, they do not want to give out details that will prompt false confessions from disturbed individuals. Third, they like to keep the prime suspects dangling in the hope that they may break down and confess.

 

[Pinkhammer]

"It is not unusual Madeleine's DNA came to be in the apartment. Finding DNA in a place we know she has been is not even worth talking about. "

It is many facts which come together like the pieces of a puzzle which cause murderers to be convicted, even sans a body. DNA alone is crucial scientific evidence, but it is not foolproof.

DNA in the apartment PLUS cadaver smell in the apartment PLUS parental behavior PLUS....many other factors...can add up to enough circumstantial evidence to get a conviction.

RE: The clumps of hair in the Renault Scenic: this would provide convincing scientific evidence that a corpse was transported in the boot of the car. The hair can be tested not only for mitochondrial DNA (proving the individual's maternal source), but also for drugs that may have been used to sedate the child. Add this to the cadaver odor found in the car, and you have some pretty convincing evidence.

I don't know Robin Hoole's credentials, other than that he/she was at one time employed at FSS laboratory in Birmingham. For all I know, he/she could have been the janitor.

 

[Jayelles]

"It is not unusual Madeleine's DNA came to be in the apartment. Finding DNA in a place we know she has been is not even worth talking about. "

It is many facts which come together like the pieces of a puzzle which cause murderers to be convicted, even sans a body. DNA alone is crucial scientific evidence, but it is not foolproof.

DNA in the apartment PLUS cadaver smell in the apartment PLUS parental behavior PLUS....many other factors...can add up to enough circumstantial evidence to get a conviction.

RE: The clumps of hair in the Renault Scenic: this would provide convincing scientific evidence that a corpse was transported in the boot of the car. The hair can be tested not only for mitochondrial DNA (proving the individual's maternal source), but also for drugs that may have been used to sedate the child. Add this to the cadaver odor found in the car, and you have some pretty convincing evidence.

I don't know Robin Hoole's credentials, other than that he/she was at one time employed at FSS laboratory in Birmingham. For all I know, he/she could have been the janitor.

Here you go:-

http://www.uclan.ac.uk/facs/science/forensic/staff/academics.htm#rh

Robin Hoole is a career forensic scientist, having worked for the Forensic Science Service for over 40 years as a caseworker, team leader and manager before joining the university. Originally an analytical chemist, he specialised in physical comparison work and was involved in many high profile cases, such as The Moors Murders and The Yorkshire Ripper investigations. He brings extensive practical casework experience to the department.

 

[colomom]

Here you go:-

http://www.uclan.ac.uk/facs/science/forensic/staff/academics.htm#rh

What, no law degree? Wonder how he knows so much about the criminal justice system in Portugal?

 

[gord]

What, no law degree? Wonder how he knows so much about the criminal justice system in Portugal?

I would rather an esteemed forensic scientist was commenting on scientific matters such as DNA samples than a lawyer - wouldnt you ?

If it is a science question the get a scientist - a law question get a lawyer

 

[colomom]

Scientist says 'no evidence' against Madeleine's parents

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=484969&in_page_id=1770

Robin Hoole, who worked for the FSS laboratory in Birmingham, said Portuguese police will need something "substantially stronger than scientific evidence" to prove a case against her parents.

He warned that the four-year-old's DNA found in the hire car or apartment would not be enough to implicate them in her disappearance.

"There would have to be some hard evidence against the McCanns, other than forensic evidence, to implicate them in her disappearance. From what we know, there doesn't seem to be much of a case against them.

"It is not unusual Madeleine's DNA came to be in the apartment. Finding DNA in a place we know she has been is not even worth talking about.

This comes only days after the FSS accused Portuguese police of "exaggerating" the evidence it has.

I would rather an esteemed forensic scientist was commenting on scientific matters such as DNA samples than a lawyer - wouldnt you ?

If it is a science question the get a scientist - a law question get a lawyer

Exactly Gord!

My comment was in response to the original article which quoted this forensic scientist as saying that there was "'no evidence" against Madeleine's parents". So, yes, I agree, it is a question of law and he is a scientist and should therefore stick to science.