Fiber Evidence

[BlueCrab]

For what it's worth:

John says in his police interviews that he did not know that Fleet White had searched the basement soon after getting to the house at around 6:15 AM. John didn't find this out until during the interviews.

 

[FULTON]

The sexual device was a staging tool, after all how would you explain a dead child in your home ??? you would have to come up with the most plausable idea that a sicko did it ,obviously and set out to make evidence that he was there.Staging within staging. I have seen first hand where coronors were dead wrong( no pun intended) as how a person died.I dont think our technology is there yet to determine actual and time of death all of the time,Im not slighting the profession. I think this case is one of them.No marks on the inside of the tape shows the tape was applied after death as in staging. A garrott was used to hide actual strangle marks ect. ect. ect. Steve Thomas had it right from the begining and so did the FBI. The rest of the so called experts receive compensation to show how it occurred diffrently from what the police said it did.Defense attornys love them ,they add that element of doupt at trail. All you need to do is sway ONE juror and you have gotten your client off.Be the guy who can come up with some alternative explination and attorney's will beat down your door and make you a wealthy person. Is the Zebra white with black strips or black with white stripes??,just to show my point) This child was the victime of a manslaughter and a cover up. If this were any other juristiction their would have been warrents issued by December 30.1996 Politics, and fear of political figures,money,friends in right places, worked in this case.As for the future.the R's attorneys have said to boulder either S... or get off the pot or we will sue you.So the R's are being left alone.This case will never be solved unless the guilty party that was in boulder that nigth confesses.

 

[Linda7NJ]

The sexual device was a staging tool, after all how would you explain a dead child in your home ??? you would have to come up with the most plausable idea that a sicko did it ,obviously and set out to make evidence that he was there.Staging within staging. I have seen first hand where coronors were dead wrong( no pun intended) as how a person died.I dont think our technology is there yet to determine actual and time of death all of the time,Im not slighting the profession. I think this case is one of them.No marks on the inside of the tape shows the tape was applied after death as in staging. A garrott was used to hide actual strangle marks ect. ect. ect. Steve Thomas had it right from the begining and so did the FBI. The rest of the so called experts receive compensation to show how it occurred diffrently from what the police said it did.Defense attornys love them ,they add that element of doupt at trail. All you need to do is sway ONE juror and you have gotten your client off.Be the guy who can come up with some alternative explination and attorney's will beat down your door and make you a wealthy person. Is the Zebra white with black strips or black with white stripes??,just to show my point) This child was the victime of a manslaughter and a cover up. If this were any other juristiction their would have been warrents issued by December 30.1996 Politics, and fear of political figures,money,friends in right places, worked in this case.As for the future.the R's attorneys have said to boulder either S... or get off the pot or we will sue you.So the R's are being left alone.This case will never be solved unless the guilty party that was in boulder that nigth confesses.

I so agree

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,

I think this is an excellent point and should be considered in greater detail. The hair entwined in the garrotte, IMO, suggests haste and total disregard for JBR. If this was a recurring sexual game, I don't think you would find hair within the knot of the garrotte. The only way I see that as possible, would be if the perp KNEW that this was the last time he'd be abusing JBR. Also, doesn't this suggest that the knot was tied with the rope already around her neck? If it was made before going around her neck, it wouldn't have her hair tied into it. My conclusion is that she is already unconscious, from either a stun gun or a blow to the head, and the garrotte was applied as staging.

Voice of Reason

Also, doesn't this suggest that the knot was tied with the rope already around her neck?

I suspect so, this is why I remarked in another post that IMO a garrote is not an EA device.

My current view is that JonBenet may have been asphyxiated by the cord, say acting as you would expect a garrote to do.

But the cord may have been simply restraining her initially, as in looped around her neck and tethered to some point.

There are other marks and abrasions on her neck that do not correspond with a clinical EA session, or a garrote style execution!

As you suggest I also think that its possible that the paintbrush handle was added after she was deceased, in fact its one of the reasons why I think there was more than one staging event!

Let me expand, the stager wanted to add the the sexual feature to JonBenet's homicide, but did not want to use his/her own finger, so they improvised using the paintbrush. Having done this he/she then wanted the garroting to be a prominent feature, so they added the paintbrush handle, and in the process entwined JonBenet's hair in the knotting. This suggests it was done quickly, in a ad hoc manner, maybe even with a hint of panic.

The sexual device was a staging tool, after all how would you explain a dead child in your home ???

It may be us who are projecting the EA perspective upon the wine-cellar crimescene, the perpetrator may or may not have intended the sexual assault to be viewed through the prism of a garrote metamorphising into an EA device?

If JonBenet was being indulged in some form of prior and recurring EA activity, then although you may expect some of her hair to be loose and fall randomly, I certainly would not expect the person administering the EA to include the possibility of unintentional pain to JonBenet by say her jerking her neck slightly and pulling her hair roots, and allowing it to become visibly entwined in the knotting which due to the applied torque or pressure would apply pressure to her hair roots, and not pleasure to her neck!

You suggest:

the garrotte was applied as staging

This is possible, it is also possible, that it was only the paintbrush handle that was added, at this stage, and someone else had already in a prior staging applied the ligature cord.

For some reason the person who did the wine-cellar staging decided that these additional elements were required.

Some have suggested it was to hide prior sexual abuse, this would suggest her killer was not the wine-cellar stager, since the sexual assault could have taken place at a prior staging?

It is important to consider that there may have been multiple stagings, by different people for different reasons. Speculating from this allows you offer explanations for some of the other crime scene elements that appear to have nothing to do with a 6-year old girl abducted from her bed.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

The sexual device was a staging tool, after all how would you explain a dead child in your home ??? you would have to come up with the most plausable idea that a sicko did it ,obviously and set out to make evidence that he was there.Staging within staging. I have seen first hand where coronors were dead wrong( no pun intended) as how a person died.I dont think our technology is there yet to determine actual and time of death all of the time,Im not slighting the profession. I think this case is one of them.No marks on the inside of the tape shows the tape was applied after death as in staging. A garrott was used to hide actual strangle marks ect. ect. ect. Steve Thomas had it right from the begining and so did the FBI. The rest of the so called experts receive compensation to show how it occurred diffrently from what the police said it did.Defense attornys love them ,they add that element of doupt at trail. All you need to do is sway ONE juror and you have gotten your client off.Be the guy who can come up with some alternative explination and attorney's will beat down your door and make you a wealthy person. Is the Zebra white with black strips or black with white stripes??,just to show my point) This child was the victime of a manslaughter and a cover up. If this were any other juristiction their would have been warrents issued by December 30.1996 Politics, and fear of political figures,money,friends in right places, worked in this case.As for the future.the R's attorneys have said to boulder either S... or get off the pot or we will sue you.So the R's are being left alone.This case will never be solved unless the guilty party that was in boulder that nigth confesses.

The garrote is IMO just as it appears, a device used to control JBR during the kidnapping, assault, and murder. As weapons go, the garrote has obvious advantages over a knife or gun. When combined with the second ligature, it allowed the perp a lot of control over JBR.

The garrote as EA, AEA, or prop contradicts the evidence. The injuries to JBR are consistent with struggle against the garrote, so it was obviously used as its design suggests.

IMO JBR was kidnapped, sexually assaulted, and murdered all with that garrote, and the killer bashed her head so she couldn't be revived. To turn around and call the weapon a mere prop belittles the victimization of JBR.

 

[aussiesheila]

aussiesheila,

So are the statements the Ramsey's offer you for what occurred that night, simply assertions, their statements are also not proven fact, and have not been tested in court.

Somebody placed the suitcase in the basement, since its a Ramsey residence, unless the basement is considered as left-luggage for other Boulderites, then it seems fair to assume a Ramsey placed it there.

If you do not think a Ramsey is guilty then you can accept John's account of rising, showering to be told JonBenet has been abducted, and read the ransom note in his underwear.

Else he may be aware of what occurred, assisted in a revised staging, certainly at a minimum would review the basement as a crime-scene location, even if he did no more.

It is also possible that the Ramsey's were involved in some kind of conspiracy which allowed JonBenet to be taken alive from the house that night, but she was returned deceased. And it is the conspiracy that generates the staging, it is also another explanation for all the spells of amnesia, and concern by other main players as to their legal situation. They are all covering themselves in case fingers get pointed in open court!

UKGuy, you have deleted the critical sentence of my post and missed my point entirely

 

[aussiesheila]

ellen13,

When Fleet White opened the door to the wine room at about 6:20 AM he leaned in and peered around, but didn't go into the room. It was dark in the room because it was still dark outside (the sun didn't rise until 7:20 AM that day), but there had to be some light or Fleet wouldn't have been able to even see the latch on the door to open it. Also, the door had recently been painted white and what little light there was would have been reflected into the room.

Fleet claims he would have seen JonBenet lying on the floor almost directly in front of him and wrapped in a white blanket, HAD SHE BEEN THERE.

When John Ramsey opened the door to the wine room at 1:05 PM it was sunny outside and the nearby window in the furnace room allowed ample light to flow into the wine room.

I tend to agree with Fleet White that he would have seen JonBenet had she been there. I think John Ramsey, unnerved that the body hadn't been found, moved the body to the easier-to-find location in the wine room at around 10:00 AM after the cops failed to find it in their earlier searches. John admits he had snuck down into the basement by himself at about that time.

IMO the fall-out between Fleet White and John Ramsey revolves around Fleet's looking into the wine room and not seeing a body at 6:20 AM, and the body then showing up almost directly in front of the door at 1:05 PM.

IOW Fleet knows John had to have moved the body and a Ramsey is therefore involved in the murder of JonBenet.

BlueCrab

That's your version BlueCrab. Here is mine.

As soon as Fleet White arrived at the house he went down to the basement and looked into the wine room TO CHECK THAT JONBENET'S BODY WAS THERE. IMO he saw it there because it was there and HE was not telling the truth when he said he did not see it.

IMO the body had been there ever since the pedophiles who were present when she was murdered hid her there. IMO they did this on FW's instructions. IMO they had rung him for advice on what to do after the killing, which as far as they were concerned they had not intended to happen.

IMO FW organised the whole coverup which was that JonBenet was supposed to have been kidnapped, the parents were not supposed to have called the police, they were only supposed to have called HIM so that he could come over and take control of things, getting the parents out of the house and removing the body and dumping it in the mountains and THEN allowing the parents to call the police.

 

[BlueCrab]

That's your version BlueCrab. Here is mine.

As soon as Fleet White arrived at the house he went down to the basement and looked into the wine room TO CHECK THAT JONBENET'S BODY WAS THERE. IMO he saw it there because it was there and HE was not telling the truth when he said he did not see it.

IMO the body had been there ever since the pedophiles who were present when she was murdered hid her there. IMO they did this on FW's instructions. IMO they had rung him for advice on what to do after the killing, which as far as they were concerned they had not intended to happen.

IMO FW organised the whole coverup which was that JonBenet was supposed to have been kidnapped, the parents were not supposed to have called the police, they were only supposed to have called HIM so that he could come over and take control of things, getting the parents out of the house and removing the body and dumping it in the mountains and THEN allowing the parents to call the police.

aussiesheila,

So, according to you, John Ramsey, Patsy Ramsey, and Burke Ramsey have been lying their heads off and covering up for the last nine years to protect Fleet White? I don't think so.

BlueCrab

 

[ellen13]

For what it's worth:

John says in his police interviews that he did not know that Fleet White had searched the basement soon after getting to the house at around 6:15 AM. John didn't find this out until during the interviews.

So is this the first time JR had told the truth and had a recollection
of actual events that didn't happen. My point is that can we really
trust JR?:innocent:

 

[aussiesheila]

aussiesheila,

So, according to you, John Ramsey, Patsy Ramsey, and Burke Ramsey have been lying their heads off and covering up for the last nine years to protect Fleet White? I don't think so.

BlueCrab

I'm not sure that I know what you mean BlueCrab. YOU say they have been lying for nine years. I don't think John Ramsey and Burke Ramsey have been lying at all for anyone. However, yes I do think that Patsy has been lying her head off and covering up for the last nine years to protect FW and his pedophile associates. I do think so.

 

[BlueCrab]

So is this the first time JR had told the truth and had a recollection
of actual events that didn't happen. My point is that can we really
trust JR?:innocent:

ellen13,

IMO neither John Ramsey nor any of the three Ramseys left alive in the house that night can be trusted to tell the truth. They were caught lying even before the cops launched their investigation (the enhanced 911 call revealing Burke's voice). The only reason a person lies is to hide the truth.

John and Patsy respond to questions as if their brains were scrambled eggs -- which is the typical behavior of guilty people trying to confuse clear evidence. Criminals obfuscate everything they can during interviews.

BlueCrab

 

[Nuisanceposter]

I'm not sure that I know what you mean BlueCrab. YOU say they have been lying for nine years. I don't think John Ramsey and Burke Ramsey have been lying at all for anyone. However, yes I do think that Patsy has been lying her head off and covering up for the last nine years to protect FW and his pedophile associates. I do think so.

John Ramsey told two different stories as to the events of Christmas night. First he said he took JonBenet to bed and read her a book, then he said what he meant was he carried her to bed and read a book. One of those has to be a lie.

 

[rashomon]

However, yes I do think that Patsy has been lying her head off and covering up for the last nine years to protect FW and his pedophile associates. I do think so.

But why should Patsy have any interest in covering up for these people who allegedly murdered her child? Which mother would do such a thing?

 

[Nuisanceposter]

But why should Patsy have any interest in covering up for these people who allegedly murdered her child? Which mother would do such a thing?

And not only why would she cover for them, but how could she pimp her daughter out to a ring of pedophiles? Would she really have condoned her 6 year old daughter being used as a sexual plaything for people who knew her husband? And would she really cover for them, or would she have created a lie to explain to LE why she shouldn't be held guilty if one of them ended up killing JonBenet?

I just can't buy the pedophile ring theory because I feel certain that Patsy would not have allowed anyone (well, anyone not related to her) to use JonBenet for sex. I do think she might have suspected or even knew either her husband or son was molesting JonBenet and denied it for a while. I'm not even sure that the molester wasn't Patsy Perfect Mom herself.

 

[Linda7NJ]

And not only why would she cover for them, but how could she pimp her daughter out to a ring of pedophiles? Would she really have condoned her 6 year old daughter being used as a sexual plaything for people who knew her husband? I just can't buy the pedophile ring theory because I feel certain that Patsy would not have allowed anyone to use JonBenet for sex. I do think she might have suspected or even knew either her husband or son was molesting JonBenet and denied it for a while.

IF Jon Benet was chronically molested, I would not rule out Patsy as the perpetrator of the abuse.

John Ramsey appears by all accounts to be a very cold, uninvolved spouse and father. Pasty could have sought affection elsewhere and turned to her daughter. Isn't there some suspicion that Pasty was sexually abused as a child?

It's not unheard of. ....Just throwing this out there...

 

[Nehemiah]

John Ramsey told two different stories as to the events of Christmas night. First he said he took JonBenet to bed and read her a book, then he said what he meant was he carried her to bed and read a book. One of those has to be a lie.

Plus, JR said that he carried JB upstairs to bed, and B said that she walked upstairs herself. Not to mention, that P initially said that JB was wearing the red turtleneck, but later changed that story, and that she said that she saw the red heart drawn on JB's hand, but later changed that story, too. Confused, or lying? Guess it depends on one's perception.

 

[tipper]

Plus, JR said that he carried JB upstairs to bed, and B said that she walked upstairs herself. Not to mention, that P initially said that JB was wearing the red turtleneck, but later changed that story, and that she said that she saw the red heart drawn on JB's hand, but later changed that story, too. Confused, or lying? Guess it depends on one's perception.

Burke said both she was carried up the stairs and she walked.

 

[Jayelles]

Burke said both she was carried up the stairs and she walked.

come again?

 

[tipper]

come again?

Sorry, I knew that was jumbled when I wrote it.

One one occasion Burke said she was carried up the stairs. On another occasion he said she walked.

Added: I don't have the page number but my recollection is that ST said he thought BUrke simply didn't remember.

 

[Nehemiah]

One one occasion Burke said she was carried up the stairs.

Do you know where this is found?