FL- 12 Story Condo Partial Building Collapse, many still unaccounted for, Miami, 24 June 2021 #2

[SouthAussie]

The fly in the ointment is going to be this: the owners of the condos at Surfside were most likely not told of a dire situation developing. Yes, they were made aware of problems that existed, but these problems were not related to them as potentially dangerous or life threatening. Had they been advised that some of the problems needed immediate attention and were dangerous, they most likely would have agreed to pay for those repairs. Those of us that live in condos are always asked for money for one thing or another---and often we say, hell no, we aren't paying for that. I don't blame those poor people--- they just were not made aware of the dire situation developing.

I dont believe that the owners had to come up with the money right away. A line of credit to cover the costs had been established.
The owners were going to be assessed in amounts ranging from $80,000 to $200,000.


The association had taken out a $12 million line of credit to pay for the repairs and was going through a careful, step-by-step process to get them done, Ms. Berger said. She said that such a process could seem more like moving a commercial tanker than a speedboat, always involving pushback and debate as board members decided on what to tackle first and how much of a cost to impose on homeowners. “Nobody likes a special assessment,” she said.

The coronavirus pandemic also slowed progress on getting repairs underway, she said.

“It’s upsetting to see these documents because the condo board was clearly made aware that there were issues (in 2018),” Ms. Salzhauer said. “And it seems from the documents that the issues were not addressed.”

Engineer Warned of ‘Major Structural Damage’ at Florida Condo Complex

 

[ilovewings]

I think it's human nature to deflect and defer when major expenditures loom large.

My own Florida condo is putting off replacing the metal railings because of the associated costs. The eleventh hour is probably when the board will act. Hopefully, it won't take a fatal accident to repair them. I think this tragedy will be getting a lot of condo boards scurrying to review their recommendations.

Meanwhile, they spent money on painting the exterior colour, agonizing over the trim colours, spend thousands on plantings and building little gazebos that no one ever sits in. It's all cosmetic.

Living in Canada every year we get roads that are just destroyed because of the freeze/thaw cycle. Major potholes causing lots of damage to vehicles but the cities rarely bite the bullet and resurface the roads. They just send out all these guys with trucks of hot asphalt and they pitch it in the holes and tamp it down with a shovel. Lather, rinse, repeat. You might wait years for it to get done and then a two mile stretch needs to be resurfaced instead of a 100 yard section. Currently, one of our roads in town has made the top five of worst roads in Central Ontario.

The fly in the ointment is going to be this: the owners of the condos at Surfside were most likely not told of a dire situation developing. Yes, they were made aware of problems that existed, but these problems were not related to them as potentially dangerous or life threatening. Had they been advised that some of the problems needed immediate attention and were dangerous, they most likely would have agreed to pay for those repairs. Those of us that live in condos are always asked for money for one thing or another---and often we say, hell no, we aren't paying for that. I don't blame those poor people--- they just were not made aware of the dire situation developing.

It hasn't been reported but I would like to know how many of the residents were renters vs owners.

It hasn't been reported but I would like to know how many of the residents were renters vs owners.

 

[ilovewings]

It hasn't been reported but I would like to know how many of the residents were renters vs owners.

Good question

 

[Marysmith]

This is just insane to me that there was so much danger here and no one knew/was told/looked further into it. Could these repairs even be done safely with people living in the building? Could they even be done full stop? I live in a condo building as well and we have multiple issues and we don’t know the full extent of what’s happening either… and just had a special assessment done.

 

[SeesSeas]

I'd be interested to know how many of those units illustrated in the NYT article with unknown residents are owned by LLCs. Which may be the reason they couldn't identify who could be missing.

List at this link:
BUILDING COLLAPSE: List Of Everyone Who Owns In Champlain Towers
BUILDING COLLAPSE: List Of Everyone Who Owns In Champlain Towers
Miami-Dade County Records Show 138 Unit Owners In Collapsed Building. We Have The List Of All Owners.
BocaNewsNow.com
SURFSIDE, FL (BocaNewsNow.com) (Copyright © 2021 MetroDesk Media, LLC) — There are 138 registered owners of units in Champlain Towers South, the building that collapsed Thursday morning in the town of Surfside.

While some units are owned by LLCs and investment groups, many are owned by individuals or couples.
[...]

 

[SouthAussie]

This is just insane to me that there was so much danger here and no one knew/was told/looked further into it. Could these repairs even be done safely with people living in the building? Could they even be done full stop? I live in a condo building as well and we have multiple issues and we don’t know the full extent of what’s happening either… and just had a special assessment done.

An April 9 "Dear Neighbours" letter from Champlain Towers South Condominium president Jean Wodnicki hinted at an ongoing debate over the repairs and a reluctance by some condo owners to pay for major work that would cost at least $US15.5 million.

"A lot of this work could have been done or planned for in years gone by. But this is where we are now," she wrote in the letter.

"Indeed the observable damage such as in the garage has gotten significantly worse since the initial inspection," she wrote. "The concrete deterioration is accelerating.

"It is impossible to know the extent of the damage to the underlying rebar until the concrete is opened up.

"Oftentimes the damage is more extensive than can be determined by inspection of the surface," she wrote.

She added, "I acknowledge that we are talking about a huge project and a very large assessment. The longer we wait, the higher the bids will be."

Miami apartment building owners warned weeks before collapse that problems had got 'significantly worse'

 

[MimosaMornings]

Was none of the concrete damage, exposed/rusted rebar visible to residents?

Was it hidden or patched up so no one would question the repair?

 

[Eloise]

well this just brings the devastation home- I’m not sure I will ever stay at the beach again unless it’s a one story motel which thankfully we still have in FL- it’s all just so terribly awful and sad …

It was brought up on an article about the issues with apartment buildings in Australia that commercial buildings are never subject to the same levels of dodgy building or lack of repair, because no corporation or commercial tenant/business is ever going to let that happen. The PR costs, the insurance costs, etc just aren't worth it to them and they insist on standards being met. They also generally have ample money to repair stuff, unlike a HOA or what we'd call a body corporate in Australia. It's something I've been on the lookout for some kind of official word on, but I think it bears out logically. So the hotels are probably quite safe compared to the apartment buildings/condos - they're not relying on a bunch of individual owners of varying levels of means to come together to agree to fix something.

 

[SouthAussie]

Was none of the concrete damage, exposed/rusted rebar visible to residents?

Was it hidden or patched up so no one would question the repair?

"Indeed the observable damage such as in the garage has gotten significantly worse since the initial inspection," she wrote. "The concrete deterioration is accelerating.

"It is impossible to know the extent of the damage to the underlying rebar until the concrete is opened up.

Miami apartment building owners warned weeks before collapse that problems had got 'significantly worse'

 

[Marysmith]

It was brought up on an article about the issues with apartment buildings in Australia that commercial buildings are never subject to the same levels of dodgy building or lack of repair, because no corporation or commercial tenant/business is ever going to let that happen. The PR costs, the insurance costs, etc just aren't worth it to them and they insist on standards being met. They also generally have ample money to repair stuff, unlike a HOA or what we'd call a body corporate in Australia. It's something I've been on the lookout for some kind of official word on, but I think it bears out logically. So the hotels are probably quite safe compared to the apartment buildings/condos - they're not relying on a bunch of individual owners of varying levels of means to come together to agree to fix something.

That makes sense. And is so scary.

 

[SouthAussie]

What I am wondering is - because the owners had (at least in April, if not before as well) become aware of the extensive concrete deterioration - why interim measures were not taken.

I watch (house) reno shows a lot. Often jacks, temporary supports, are put in to support a building while walls are taken down and supporting beams are added.

Surely some equivalent temporary measure could have been taken? Until the proper repairs were undertaken.
It seems to me that such temporary measures would have had to be used anyway, while the supports were being worked on.

 

[PayrollNerd]

What I am wondering is - because the owners had (at least in April, if not before as well) become aware of the extensive concrete deterioration - why interim measures were not taken.

I watch (house) reno shows a lot. Often jacks, temporary supports, are put in to support a building while walls are taken down and supporting beams are added.

Surely some equivalent temporary measure could have been taken? Until the proper repairs were undertaken.
It seems to me that such temporary measures would have had to be used anyway, while the supports were being worked on.

On the surface, that seems logical. However, the true depth of the deterioration, even in April would have required a mandatory evacuation. I believe that because the inspectors quickly looked at other condo structures in the vicinity and promptly evacuated everyone this week. The Dolphin Towers history here and this collapse has everyone on their toes. Nobody wants to be blamed and have another collapse. Everyone up the food chain is paying attention now. They're all in deep dooty for not doing their jobs in the past and they know it. The proverbial poop has hit the fan. People lost their lives as a result. Unbearably painful to be an observer to this tragedy. It makes me sad but also mad.

 

[Marysmith]

On the surface, that seems logical. However, the true depth of the deterioration, even in April would have required a mandatory evacuation. I believe that because the inspectors quickly looked at other condo structures in the vicinity and promptly evacuated everyone this week. The Dolphin Towers history here and this collapse has everyone on their toes. Nobody wants to be blamed and have another collapse. Everyone up the food chain is paying attention now. They're all in deep dooty for not doing their jobs in the past and they know it. The proverbial poop has hit the fan. People lost their lives as a result. Unbearably painful to be an observer to this tragedy. It makes me sad but also mad.

They should be in deep. This is criminal. There is no way that people didn’t know how unsafe that building was - and they didn’t sound the alarm!

 

[SouthAussie]

On the surface, that seems logical. However, the true depth of the deterioration, even in April would have required a mandatory evacuation. I believe that because the inspectors quickly looked at other condo structures in the vicinity and promptly evacuated everyone this week. The Dolphin Towers history here and this collapse has everyone on their toes. Nobody wants to be blamed and have another collapse. Everyone up the food chain is paying attention now. They're all in deep dooty for not doing their jobs in the past and they know it. The proverbial poop has hit the fan. People lost their lives as a result. Unbearably painful to be an observer to this tragedy. It makes me sad but also mad.

Unfortunately, in the emails that I posted earlier, it is apparent that the concrete supports were not even the first issue that was going to be addressed. The roof was the first thing on the agenda. And 5 additional parking spaces.

They were also seeking alternate parking (in a nearby empty lot) for residents to park in while other work was being undertaken - which I presume may have been the leaky, deteriorating garage and its supports.

 

[SoBu]

I’ve read in multiple articles that a contractor declared that they could not perform the needed work in part because of the extent of the damage and in part because the pool needed to be in service for the entirety of the project. I’m especially trying to understand the importance of keeping a pool in service when there is such a serious repair needed. It does make me wonder the extent to which the owners understood the extent of the problems.
Condo collapse near Miami: recent repairs delayed by unexpected damage

 

[Marysmith]

I’ve read in multiple articles that a contractor declared that they could not perform the needed work in part because of the extent of the damage and in part because the pool needed to be in service for the entirety of the project. I’m especially trying to understand the importance of keeping a pool in service when there is such a serious repair needed. It does make me wonder the extent to which the owners understood the extent of the problems.
Condo collapse near Miami: recent repairs delayed by unexpected damage

It really seems like they didn’t… even the board because apparently some of the board members are missing? So maybe they didn’t get all the documents?!

 

[BrownRice]

I don't think you can equate lockdowns with paranoia. You live in a warm climate where people can be out and about year round. Restaurants have outdoor dining areas because they've been designed to take advantage of the warm weather. You have big malls that aren't enclosed like they are in the north.

Off topic but your avatar pic is hysterical!

 

[branmuffin]

What I am wondering is - because the owners had (at least in April, if not before as well) become aware of the extensive concrete deterioration - why interim measures were not taken.

I watch (house) reno shows a lot. Often jacks, temporary supports, are put in to support a building while walls are taken down and supporting beams are added.

Surely some equivalent temporary measure could have been taken? Until the proper repairs were undertaken.
It seems to me that such temporary measures would have had to be used anyway, while the supports were being worked on.

There's a condo building in San Francisco called the Millennium Tower that was finished in 2009 that was sinking 18 inches and leaning about 14 inches. It's costing about $100 million dollars to fix the problem. It was never built on bedrock just dense, hard packed sand. I saw two owners on tv who had spent $4 million on their unit. They packed their bags and just up and left.

 

[branmuffin]

Unfortunately, in the emails that I posted earlier, it is apparent that the concrete supports were not even the first issue that was going to be addressed. The roof was the first thing on the agenda. And 5 additional parking spaces.

They were also seeking alternate parking (in a nearby empty lot) for residents to park in while other work was being undertaken - which I presume may have been the leaky, deteriorating garage and its supports.

It does seem like their priorities were a little scrambled. Why work on the roof when the foundation of the building was the red flag? And worrying about parking when there was so much evidence of serious deterioration of the structural integrity of the building?

 

[branmuffin]

I’ve read in multiple articles that a contractor declared that they could not perform the needed work in part because of the extent of the damage and in part because the pool needed to be in service for the entirety of the project. I’m especially trying to understand the importance of keeping a pool in service when there is such a serious repair needed. It does make me wonder the extent to which the owners understood the extent of the problems.
Condo collapse near Miami: recent repairs delayed by unexpected damage

Especially when the ocean is about 50 feet away.