FL - 17-yo Boy Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #2

[rotterdam]

While they keep passing the buck, the issue and the tempers get hotter and hotter. When are these people going to buy a clue?

A very volatile situation. I certainly hope there will be no riots.
The media has a habit of stirring up the frenzy. A grand jury is just too secretive. More info needs to be released on the LE side. There are just too many unanswered questions. Temporary removing the top honcho in LE would help.

 

[Adrienne37]

I think Sanford PD has been totally blindsided by the incredible response to this murder. They thought they could quietly sweep it under the rug. NOT! There are too many people who are outraged over this and aren't going to stand for it. I think they just figured that out. I bet there is some serious shaking in their boots going on in that town.

ETA: I tend to be very pro-LE as my mother is a retired cop. But, I have just been sickened over the behavior of the police department in this case.

I agree completely. This has come as a major shock to them that they were not prepared to handle. Thank heavens that Trayvon's mother and father haven't backed down else it would have been swept neatly under the rug.

 

[Angelonline]

I don't think a 9mm would have enough kickback to make a person fall...unless you mean he just slipped on his own?

I really can't think of any way Trayvon could be shot in the chest and fall forward, but then again, I'm not a visual person.

We also don't know if Trayvon died immediately, or if he maybe rolled over in pain? I keep thinking is it possible he was shot in the back, and the exit wound was the chest. Again, I'm purely speculating, because I don't know about those kinds of things...

JMO MOO IMO

Someone may have already addressed this but- I have a 9mm it has a quite a kick especially if my target is close. I have to brace myself good when I fire so I can totally see myself slipping down if I shot it at a hard target up close and the ground was wet. Of course I am female and I have no idea how much experience GZ had with his weapon for all I know he is an expert shooter

 

[mikeysmommom]

It bothers me that the MSM keeps saying the shooting has sparked racial tensions. I don't see that. I see just as many white as black people standing for Tray. I think race played a role in the killing, but I don't believe it is playing a role in the response to it. Just about everyone is very, very angry over what was done to Trayvon. We have got to all get past any racial barriers and live together in harmony, appreciating and celebrating each other's cultures. All races, all cultures. It disappoints me so much to still see so much racism in this day and age, among many different cultures. We can do better than this. We are Americans!

ETA: I don't know whether race has played a role in Sanford PD's response, but I do question it.

IMO Race is playing a huge part in the response to this shooting!Gathering groups ,Calling for jobs,playing on the fears of rioting breaking out in the streets seems to be due to racial tensions brewing.A lot of people here who live in the area seem to fear riots and tension rising.If any injustices were done with a grand jury in a few weeks it will hear the facts and make a decision. I have seen it written here that if this was a white kid killed by an African American man he would have been on death row.How does the white race cause a Hispanic man to get away with killing an African American Teen?

 

[rotterdam]

There's nothing wrong with the law.

The problem is that some people keep trying to make this case fit that law or vice versa.

It started with the police, and continues, but police are not to interpret the law.

Do not like that law. Not specific enough. Sounds like a license to kill. Too much wild west cowboy style.

 

[HiHater]

Do not like that law. Not specific enough. Sounds like a license to kill. Too much wild west cowboy style.

I can kind of agree with that, but then I also see the law as giving victims a fighting chance.

I think the law is a necessary evil...and by nothing wrong with the law, I more so mean that this case isn't the best one to spark the debate (though it should be had). George Zimmerman was not being attacked.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Do not like that law. Not specific enough. Sounds like a license to kill. Too much wild west cowboy style.

If the lawmaker who wrote this law intended its use only to defend ones "castle" or home he should have wrote it that way.

 

[JeannaT]

LE SHOULD have done their job and called her in themselves and gotten her statement on DAY ONE... I'm sure she has no problem appearing before the grand jury on her own accord.

They couldn't access the phone from "day one", due to not having a warrant, and I think the parents have been quite clear that this girl will only speak to this lawyer, no one else.

I'm not sure why you believe she would have no problem appearing before a grand jury. Her parents have basically said no.

 

[mikeysmommom]

As far as race goes, if Trayvon Martin was a white 17 year old boy who had just been killed, the Sanford Police would not have let him sit in the morgue with a John Doe toe tag. They sided with George Zimmerman and believed that Tray was just a young black who got killed because he issued a violent attack on the neighborhood watchman. They were gonna get around to figuring out who Tray was either when they felt like it or when somebody called looking for him. Which is exactly what happened when Tracy Martin called to find out if his son had been arrested.

If Trayvon was white, Tracy Martin would have gotten a phone call asking him to come to the police station so the Sanford police could tell him what happened to his son.

My opinion only.

Maybe he did not have any ID on him,being 17 isn't that also a possibility?Without ID how would they know who to notify?

 

[JeannaT]

Unless you are a cop or a licensed PI it is illegal to follow anybody in public places at all. It is called stalking. Further more once somebody starts running from you, it can be considered assault in certain cases if you chase them.

That is why Cathy I don't understand the people in here that say Zimmerman shot Tray in self defense. He was following, then chasing somebody who clearly was in fear of him. Even if Tray stopped running to fight him, by law Tray was the one who was standing his ground. And it is nonsense to think anything else.

On another note, I have a feeling that they will charge Zimmerman with 2nd degree murder and then cut a deal with him for manslaughter in exchange for his testimony against the Sanford PD. I think the Justice Department is going to go after some of the Sanford PD for their role in the coverup of Tray's death.

THIS is SO COMPLETELY wrong. I don't know where people come up with information like this, porkchop. In a public place, or on private property that you have a right to be on, you can ABSOLUTELY follow someone. You think you recognize someone who stole your car and you want to see what car they are going to. You think you recognize someone you went to high school with and want to get a better look. You think you just saw someone steal a dog, and you follow them all the way across town to see if that's true.

YOU CAN ABSOLUTELY follow someone if you want to. With friendly or hostile intentions, providing those intentions are based on legal reasons, i.e., trying to make sure you know where someone is when the cops finally arrive to check them out.

You can even "stalk" someone for romantic purposes until the victim asks for help from LE and is able to get a restraining order, which isn't always that easy if someone is just following you around trying to interact with you. They have to do more than follow - they have to actually THREATEN you. They can't just want to be in your presence.

 

[curl_in_progress]

Maybe he did not have any ID on him,being 17 isn't that also a possibility?Without ID how would they know who to notify?

He had his cell phone on him. And his father was in a home 70 yards away. They could have tried to knock on a few doors to see if there was anyone else who heard anything that night, if anyone was missing a young teenaged boy or knew of a home close by where a teenager lived who fit Tray's description. They just assumed that Trayvon did not belong in that gated community.

 

[rotterdam]

Someone may have already addressed this but- I have a 9mm it has a quite a kick especially if my target is close. I have to brace myself good when I fire so I can totally see myself slipping down if I shot it at a hard target up close and the ground was wet. Of course I am female and I have no idea how much experience GZ had with his weapon for all I know he is an expert shooter

I see what you mean. He could have fallen backwards after shooting the gun.
Tray gave him a bloody nose when Zimmerman started to shove him. Tray would not have done that if Zimmerman had a gun pointing on him. Since Tray died so quickly , I suspect the shot hit him in the heart or a major artery near the heart. Unless extremely lucky, I just can not see pulling a gun out of a holster and aiming so accurately while struggling with an attacker. Sounds like an after the fight thingy out of revenge.

 

[mikeysmommom]

What if the Grand Jury decides GZ was in the right,and backs it up with evidence then what?What if no heads roll over this?What if GZ was being attacked would anyone believe it?

 

[BuzzieCat]

If GZ had his gun out in full sight when he approached Tray, surely Tray wouldn't have jumped at him. And if GZ already had his gun out, he wouldn't need to jump on Tray since he already had the upper hand. Maybe he thought he could take Tray down with fisticuffs and then shot him when fighting didn't work. Doesn't sound like self defense to me, but I'd have been a lot happier if the police had done their jobs and collected all the evidence they could. Now some of that evidence is probably lost forever.

I'm just having a hard time seeing how this thing played out. I don't think GZ necessarily went at it with the intent to kill someone, but I do think he intended to "capture" Tray and present him to the police and get kudos for catching a burglar (which of course Tray wasn't). Not sure how the decision to shoot happened. If only GZ had stayed in his vehicle.

I agree with the poster who said GZ probably didn't want to give out his address because he knew police wouldn't find him there.

 

[Belinda]

What if the Grand Jury decides GZ was in the right,and backs it up with evidence then what?What if no heads roll over this?What if GZ was being attacked would anyone believe it?

I find this to be extremely remote. Would anyone believe it? NO. This is a case of cold-blooded murder. There is too much evidence to back it up, even with all the screw-ups from LE.

 

[annalia]

They couldn't access the phone from "day one", due to not having a warrant, and I think the parents have been quite clear that this girl will only speak to this lawyer, no one else.

I'm not sure why you believe she would have no problem appearing before a grand jury. Her parents have basically said no.

This is just not true. They were turning everything over to the Justice Dept. They never said that they will not allow her to ever speak to anyone.

 

[203_forensics]

BBM
Our professor told us that detectives will go to the autopsy and toss their opinions out to the ME to get the autopsy report to match what they want. I hope they get a second autopsy to determine the direction of the bullet. GZ and TM clothes, especially the shirts would tell a lot. The clothes would have GSR, and possibly the angle at which the bullet hit TM from the blood spatter on GZ shirt since he claiming TM was on top of him.

I hunted thru many articles, with no luck in order to determine if Tray was shot in the front. Heck, he could even have been shot in the back while trying to run away from Zimmerman with gun drawn. Tray laying face down, sounds strange unless Zimmerman turned him over or Tray was on top of Zimmerman while he shot him. And also at what distance was shot was fired.
I would not be surprised if Tray will be exhumed in order to get to the bottom of this. Did they even do an autopsy?

 

[JeannaT]

So this is a bit of an offshoot conversation, but it's bugging me. The girlfriend was on the phone with Tray, he was walking away from someone who was following him, she advised him to run, she heard what was obviously a fight and the phone went dead and then what?

This was about 7:30 at night. Tray's family didn't know where he was until 8 a.m. the next morning.

The girlfriend said she tried to call him but the phone was dead. Did she attempt any other way to contact him? Call his mother? Call LE? Tell her mother? It's so sad to me that it appears people closest to him reacted so little when he was missing.

His father didn't seem to do anything more than call the police to determine whether he'd been arrested.

 

[JeannaT]

This is just not true. They were turning everything over to the Justice Dept. They never said that they will not allow her to ever speak to anyone.

Yes they did, and I posted the article where the parents said she wouldn't talk to LE, only that lawyer, upthread.

Here's the article:

Her parents have requested that only the lawyer be allowed to question her.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/traynor-ma...-crucial-phone/story?id=15959017#.T2pw33ZWAYZ

 

[porkchop]

THIS is SO COMPLETELY wrong. I don't know where people come up with information like this, porkchop. In a public place, or on private property that you have a right to be on, you can ABSOLUTELY follow someone. You think you recognize someone who stole your car and you want to see what car they are going to. You think you recognize someone you went to high school with and want to get a better look. You think you just saw someone steal a dog, and you follow them all the way across town to see if that's true.

YOU CAN ABSOLUTELY follow someone if you want to. With friendly or hostile intentions, providing those intentions are based on legal reasons, i.e., trying to make sure you know where someone is when the cops finally arrive to check them out.

You can even "stalk" someone for romantic purposes until the victim asks for help from LE and is able to get a restraining order, which isn't always that easy if someone is just following you around trying to interact with you. They have to do more than follow - they have to actually THREATEN you. They can't just want to be in your presence.

Yes it is illegal to follow somebody in public. If you were following me around in public and I told a cop, he wouldn't tell me it isn't illegal. He would confront you and tell you to stop. He may even detain you for questioning. That makes it illegal, just because there aren't cops around to tell you right then and there to knock it off doesn't make it legal. And if you are following somebody and they decide to run, you don't chase after them. If they are running more than likely they are in fear of you and can take action to defend themselves.