FL - 17-yo Boy Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain

[Yoda]

I think it is important to note that 42 police calls came from George Zimmerman. My understanding from miscellaneous reading I have done was that this is a middle class gated community in a "good" area, but these statistics seem to conflict with that idea. Would especially love to know more about the other shooting.

I did just read, I believe, that the 42 calls were for the month of January 2012 alone. That is a lot. I'd also be interested in knowing what percentage were for people walking in/through the neighborhood. I'll look for the link on the 42 calls.

 

[annalia]

I guess I am seeing it differently Annalia. I think the info about the suspension is important because it shows that Tray was not a violent kid. I think knowing this about his character adds further support to show that GZ did NOT act in self-defense. I'm not seeing it as bashing the victim - I'm seeing it as supporting the victim. It shows that it would have been inconsistent with Tray's character to confront GZ. While character evidence can only be used in certain circumstances in court - in real life the information is important in assessing GZ's credibility, in my opinion.

Why would GZ feel it necessary to defend himself against a non-violent teen? GZ acted out of his own zealous desire to prove himself - he did not act out of any need to defend himself, in my opinion. He should be brought up on 1st degree murder charges - not let go because he was defending himself. GZ instigated and caused the situation that resulted in Tray's death. In my mind, he did it with premediation and reckless disregard for human life.

GZ sat in his car and watched Tray. He called 911 and discussed his intent to confront this teen, knowing full well he had NO legal authority to do so, and then GZ did confront this teen, without legal authority and against the direction of LE. GZ knew he was armed and when he got out of his car, he fully intended to apprehend Tray without legal authority, knowing that he (GZ) had the full force of his weapon with him. That to me, ladies and gentleman, is MURDER IN THE 1ST DEGREE, ACTING WITH A DEPRAVED HEART AND MALICE AFORETHOUGHT. (nonmod Salem on her tallest soap box)

Salem

Actually -- there should be NO victim bashing here (said in my sternest Mod voice).

Thank Salem, I actually don't disagree with what you're saying. I do understand what you're saying about the need to ask hard questions when sleuthing. I guess my confusion came in at what point does it become just victim bashing vs asking hard questions. At what point does it become sleuthing vs victim bashing. An example being knowing his suspension doesn't factor in to his murder but continuing to question it as if it did, as well as his parents reactions afterwards that don't have a bearing on his murder, who are also victims in this.

It's such a tragic case. A 17 year old boy who by all accounts was a good kid, deserved to live, deserved to be allowed walk the street. Let's hope LE can get to the bottom of it.

JMHO

 

[BiancaS]

I did just read, I believe, that the 42 calls were for the month of January 2012 alone. That is a lot. I'd also be interested in knowing what percentage were for people walking in/through the neighborhood. I'll look for the link on the 42 calls.

I would love to hear the other 911 calls, wish someone in the media would get those!! Or the attorneys for Trayvon, since they were the ones that were able to get the 8 ones regarding this case released.

 

[jjenny]

The new law codified in Florida Statutes 776.013(3)(2006) states:

A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity, and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
From this link:http://www.hessingerlaw.com/Articles/Self-Defense-and-Floridas-Stand-Your-Ground-Law.aspx

Some states made these self-defense laws so broad that it appears to me anyone can attack anyone anywhere and claim self-defense. Since the victim is dead how do you prove who started the attack?

 

[belle3]

Some states made these self-defense laws so broad that it appears to me anyone can attack anyone anywhere and claim self-defense. Since the victim is dead how do you prove who started the attack?

Well...the way Im seeing this is that trayvon was the one who was defending himself and ended up getting murdered for it. He was not in the middle of a crime. He was running away, according to mr. zimmerman. He eventually caught up to him an had a dangerous weapon. How could trayvon not be expected to defend himself, if he even got the chance to. This man had absolutely no right to approach this young man and no grounds for killing him. He brought a gun to a fist fight, so to say. That is just my opinion and interpretation of what I am reading in the statutes.

 

[i.b.nora]

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/police/community.html

Sanford Police - Community Policing
The Sanford Police Department has implemented an intensive community policing approach in its day to day operations. At the very core of the community policing concept is a partnership between police and the community. By working together we hope to identify problems in the community, and once we find the cause - in partnership - we can develop solutions to help eliminate these problems. BLAH BLAH BLAH

There is a link there to their Neighborhood Watch Publication (a PDF)

It says, among other things:

"Neighborhood Watch is:
♦ Learning about the people and activity patterns on your block, and how to recognize suspicious individuals, vehicles, and out-of-place behavior.
♦ Making the commitment with your neighbors to report suspicious activities to the police.
♦ Making your home as secure as possible against intruders.
♦ Marking and photographing all your valuables to reduce the likelihood of theft and to increase the chances of having stolen property returned to you.
♦ Establishing an ongoing communication network to discuss ways of mutually working together for the betterment of your block, your neighborhood, and the community.
These components form the basis of the Neighborhood Watch Program."

more...

The Sanford Police Community Policing Unit goes on to say:

"To “profile” your block, share with each other the following information:
• Names of household members • Address • Phone numbers (include work
numbers)
• Makes • Models • Colors • License numbers of family cars
• Pets (Does a barking dog indicate an intruder?)
• Medical problems (note so the most appropriate response may be made in an emergency)
Make a block map of your network and distribute to your block participants.
Discuss “weaknesses” of your area (for example, visibility of houses by neighbors, areas of high daytime vacancy, residences with vacancy due to vacations, etc.)
Keep your block map in a safe but accessible place (example, in phone book or desk)."

 

[jjenny]

Well...the way Im seeing this is that trayvon was the one who was defending himself and ended up getting murdered for it. He was not in the middle of a crime. He was running away, according to mr. zimmerman. He eventually caught up to him an had a dangerous weapon. How could trayvon not be expected to defend himself, if he even got the chance to. This man had absolutely no right to approach this young man and no grounds for killing him. He brought a gun to a fist fight, so to say. That is just my opinion and interpretation of what I am reading in the statutes.

GZ is claiming self-defense since he says while he was following Trayvon, Trayvon is the one who turned around and approached him. Trayvon is dead, so he can't say what happened, and none of the witnesses appear to be able to contradict that (because they haven't witnessed much).

 

[jjenny]

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/police/community.html

Sanford Police - Community Policing
The Sanford Police Department has implemented an intensive community policing approach in its day to day operations. At the very core of the community policing concept is a partnership between police and the community. By working together we hope to identify problems in the community, and once we find the cause - in partnership - we can develop solutions to help eliminate these problems. BLAH BLAH BLAH
...
"

It's all good but police doesn't tell them to follow "suspicious" persons around. GZ went above and beyond.

 

[Angelonline]

"The answer may lie in police records, which show that 50 suspicious-person reports were called in to police in the past year at Twin Lakes. There were eight burglaries, nine thefts and one other shooting in the year prior to Trayvon’s death.

In all, police had been called to the 260-unit complex 402 times from Jan. 1, 2011 to Feb. 26, 2012."

I wonder how that neighborhood compares to others right around it.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/17/2700249_p2/shooter-of-trayvon-martin-a-habitual.html

From your own link above--- Go to page 1 your link goes to page 2...

Zimmerman called police 46 times since Jan. 1, 2011 to report disturbances, break-ins, windows left open and other incidents. Nine of those times, he saw someone or something suspicious.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/...-trayvon-martin-a-habitual.html#storylink=cpy​

 

[momshrink]

I don't know, but just because GZ appears to be overweight doesn't mean he can't run fast (especially short distances).

The criminal justice program in which GZ was enrolled requires physical fitness, a sort of boot camp for their students.

 

[ynotdivein]

This link is to the Orlando paper. It has a map showing 7/11, GZ's home, home TM was returning too.
<snip>
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...n-sanford-shooting-20120313,0,5710580.graphic

Respectful snip for focus.

I found it helpful to look at the Google satellite map of the neighborhood too.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Oregon+Ave+at+Rinehart+Rd.+Orlando+FL&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=MjZmT_H5IMXZ0QGp3KmcAQ&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=3&ved=0CAwQ_AUoAg

You can zoom in to see the clubhouse and the building to the side of it that apparently houses the mailboxes (in his call, GZ indicated his truck was near this spot before he exited his vehicle). The sidewalks/paths/"cut-throughs" are clear too. Tray might have been taking that sidewalk and planning to come back home through the back door?

(ETA: That Google link works, despite the smiley face in the middle.)

 

[angelmom]

I wonder why Trayvon couldn't get away from GZ. Is it possible that GZ took a shortcut to be able to catch Trayvon?

Or that Tray didn't know where he was going but GZ did...Tray could have been turned around and actually going in circles before he ended up closer to GZ.

GZ is claiming self-defense since he says while he was following Trayvon, Trayvon is the one who turned around and approached him. Trayvon is dead, so he can't say what happened, and none of the witnesses appear to be able to contradict that (because they haven't witnessed much).

There is no proof of that. Since GZ is claiming self-defense, he would have to prove that Tray approached him. The witnesses wouldn't have to contradict GZ for an arrest to take place, they would have to back him up in order to help his defense.

From your own link above--- Go to page 1 your link goes to page 2...

Zimmerman called police 46 times since Jan. 1, 2011 to report disturbances, break-ins, windows left open and other incidents. Nine of those times, he saw someone or something suspicious.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/...-trayvon-martin-a-habitual.html#storylink=cpy​

Seriously? If my neighbor was calling LE every time I left the window open I would be starting to get annoyed. There is a line between neighborhood watch and creepy stalker dude, and it sounds like GZ can only see that line if he turns around to look behind him!

 

[JeannaT]

Or that Tray didn't know where he was going but GZ did...Tray could have been turned around and actually going in circles before he ended up closer to GZ.



There is no proof of that. Since GZ is claiming self-defense, he would have to prove that Tray approached him. The witnesses wouldn't have to contradict GZ for an arrest to take place, they would have to back him up in order to help his defense.



Seriously? If my neighbor was calling LE every time I left the window open I would be starting to get annoyed. There is a line between neighborhood watch and creepy stalker dude, and it sounds like GZ can only see that line if he turns around to look behind him!

No, he doesn't have to prove that Tray approached him. He would have to merely prove he was somewhere he lawfully had the right to be, and was in reasonable belief that he was about to be maimed or killed.

His injuries back that up, IMHO. He doesn't have to prove that Tray was the first to engage in the disagreement.

 

[chefmom]

I hope an arrest is made soon. I see absolutely no excuse for why this young man was killed. None. RIP, Trayvon.

 

[Reader]

Respectful snip for focus.

I found it helpful to look at the Google satellite map of the neighborhood too.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Oregon+Ave+at+Rinehart+Rd.+Orlando+FL&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=MjZmT_H5IMXZ0QGp3KmcAQ&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=3&ved=0CAwQ_AUoAg

You can zoom in to see the clubhouse and the building to the side of it that apparently houses the mailboxes (in his call, GZ indicated his truck was near this spot before he exited his vehicle). The sidewalks/paths/"cut-throughs" are clear too. Tray might have been taking that sidewalk and planning to come back home through the back door?

(ETA: That Google link works, despite the smiley face in the middle.)

Thanks....I've not looked at every post but do we have a map that pinpoints where the shooting took place in relation to the apartment where Trayvon was staying?

Someone asked a question before, when I posted that it took 12 hours for the father to find out what happened, about how was it possible he had not seen/heard the commotion with police being outside after the incident.

The area looks pretty spread out and I just wondered if there were other apartment buildings between the 2 places, so that the commotion couldn't be seen/heard from where the father was staying.

I agree with what someone said above also...I think Trayvon's 'looking at the homes' as GZ said, was trying to find the apartment/street where he was going. It was night and raining and he was not that familiar with the place and may have gotten turned around.

In fact, I'm wondering when Trayvon approached the vehicle/GZ maybe he was even thinking about asking directions? Then, he heard GZ talking on the phone saying 'he's looking at me', or even GZ made some gesture to him or held up the gun, so he got scared and began running? Then when GZ got out and started following/running after him, he may have thought it was a gang member or criminal after him? GZ had nothing to ID who he was and apparently did not make any effort to tell the boy who he was and what he was doing. You can imagine the terror Trayvon was in if that is what happened. That's my speculation.

 

[deelytful1]

Listen to the 911 calls, if you have questions, do not depend on someone else to listen and transcribe. The voice inflection is important and so are so many other aspects of those calls. I know they are hard to listen too, but if you want answers to your valid questions then please listen.

Thank You. This is what I was trying to convey as well.

 

[deelytful1]

I still would like to know how anything Trayvon did... whether before or during his murder can have anything to do with the fact that GZ was not a police officer and was told NOT to follow Trayvon yet did and the untimely death of a 17 yr old boy occurred.
IMO if Tray had a HISTORY of violence it does not change the fact that GZ should have stayed in his vehicle or better yet drove away and let LE handle it.
If they determine Trayvon was a boy scout or if they determine he was suspended for a threat of violence against a nun.... HOW does that change things? In my opinion it only changes certain peoples perceptions of the crime... one means he was murdered senselessly and the other means he deserved it...
I'm not understanding some of the questions asked (and condoned) in this thread.
Very confused and feeling a bit frustrated....

 

[chefmom]

I still would like to know how anything Trayvon did... whether before or during his murder can have anything to do with the fact that GZ was not a police officer and was told NOT to follow Trayvon yet did and the untimely death of a 17 yr old boy occurred.
IMO if Tray had a HISTORY of violence it does not change the fact that GZ should have stayed in his vehicle or better yet drove away and let LE handle it.
If they determine Trayvon was a boy scout or if they determine he was suspended for a threat of violence against a nun.... HOW does that change things? In my opinion it only changes certain peoples perceptions of the crime... one means he was murdered senselessly and the other means he deserved it...
I'm not understanding some of the questions asked (and condoned) in this thread.
Very confused and feeling a bit frustrated....

Yes. In the 911 calls, GZ is very clearly told by the operator NOT to follow him. EVEN IF he still felt compelled to follow him to see if he was doing something wrong, there is a vast difference between following someone and shooting someone. The act of following someone in itself can be viewed as an act of agression on the part of GZ, imo. This man needs to be charged.

 

[jjenny]

No, he doesn't have to prove that Tray approached him. He would have to merely prove he was somewhere he lawfully had the right to be, and was in reasonable belief that he was about to be maimed or killed.

His injuries back that up, IMHO. He doesn't have to prove that Tray was the first to engage in the disagreement.

I don't think that's correct at all. If GZ provoked Tray, then GZ becomes the aggressor. Using your logic, you can run after someone, attack them, then get out a gun and shoot them when that person defends him or herself, and claim self-defense.

 

[ynotdivein]

This link is to the Orlando paper. It has a map showing 7/11, GZ's home, home TM was returning too.
It also has an interesting brief timeline that says GZ was held at gunpoint when police arrived and was handcuffed. I hadn't read that anywhere else.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...n-sanford-shooting-20120313,0,5710580.graphic

Bumping post with link to Orlando Sentinel graphic of locations.

(ETA: I found it helpful to compare this graphic to the Google map in terms of distance, ways Tray might have taken a shortcut to the 7-11, proximity of final event to neighbors/911 callers... The 7-11 doesn't appear in the Google map, but based on the OS graphic it appears that it was built in what Google shows as an empty lot between the Benz and Toyota dealerships?)