FL - 17-yo Boy Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain

[annalia]

No, he doesn't have to prove that Tray approached him. He would have to merely prove he was somewhere he lawfully had the right to be, and was in reasonable belief that he was about to be maimed or killed.

His injuries back that up, IMHO. He doesn't have to prove that Tray was the first to engage in the disagreement.

my bolding

That would apply to Trayvon, not GZ.

JMHO

 

[momshrink]

Bumping post with link to Orlando Sentinel graphic of locations.

(ETA: I found it helpful to compare this graphic to the Google map in terms of distance, ways Tray might have taken a shortcut to the 7-11, proximity of final event to neighbors/911 callers... The 7-11 doesn't appear in the Google map, but based on the OS graphic it appears that it was built in what Google shows as an empty lot between the Benz and Toyota dealerships?)

That area is a mix of retail stores, restaurants, etc, and empty areas. There is a goat farm there, too. I don't think there is a sidewalk along rhinehart in that area. Lots of traffic. I would not walk along there at night in the rain.

 

[JeannaT]

I don't think that's correct at all. If GZ provoked Tray, then GZ becomes the aggressor. Using your logic, you can run after someone, attack them, then get out a gun and shoot them when that person defends him or herself, and claim self-defense.

I think you can walk after someone in your own neighborhood, and follow them, even asking if they live there and if they attack you because of that you have every right - if their attack is aggressive enough - to shoot.

Given the number of times GZ did this - observed and followed suspicious looking people, I just refuse to believe he attacked physically.

 

[lauriej]

I hope an arrest is made soon. I see absolutely no excuse for why this young man was killed. None. RIP, Trayvon.

--it doesn't sound like an arrest will be "soon".

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-zimmerman-letter-20120315,0,757781.story


Police on Tuesday (March 13) turned the case over to the State Attorney's Office, saying they did not have evidence to justify George Zimmerman's arrest on a charge of manslaughter.

Prosecutors will now likely spend several weeks studying the case before making a decision on whether to charge Zimmerman.

Sanford police Chief Bill Lee Jr. told the Sentinel on Thursday night that he has invited the U.S. Department of Justice and the Florida Department of Law Enforcement to review the investigation.

"It's an open book," Lee said. "If they want to look at what we did and how we did it and what information we have, they're welcome to it."

 

[angelmom]

I think you can walk after someone in your own neighborhood, and follow them, even asking if they live there and if they attack you because of that you have every right - if their attack is aggressive enough - to shoot.

Given the number of times GZ did this - observed and followed suspicious looking people, I just refuse to believe he attacked physically.

I have a hard time giving the benefit of the doubt to GZ, the one who was an adult, the one who was armed with a semi-automatic weapon, the one who has been arrested for violence against a police officer, and not giving at least that same benefit of the doubt (if not more) to Tray, the one who was a minor, the one who was unarmed, the one whose crimes appear to be arriving late for school.

Tray is the one who is dead and GZ is not denying that he shot Tray. The burden to prove that it was self-defense falls on GZ, NOT Tray. Unless he can PROVE that it was self-defense, then he should be in jail awaiting trial.

 

[SoBeCzar]

From the law:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.
GZ would have had to exhaust every means of escape or physically withdraw and indicate he wished to terminate the use of force. While being in fear of great bodily harm. You can't just shoot someone that hits you. We also don't know who attacked who but GZ was following Treyvon who was minding his on buisness. At one point GZ said Treyvon approached and then took off. Perhaps he took off because he saw GZ had a gun. Either way GZ shot and killed and the responsibility of self defense is on him.

 

[Belinda]

For those who missed it, please go to Change.org to sign the petition requesting the prosecution of GZ for the murder of Trayvon.

 

[angelmom]

--it doesn't sound like an arrest will be "soon".

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-zimmerman-letter-20120315,0,757781.story


Police on Tuesday (March 13) turned the case over to the State Attorney's Office, saying they did not have evidence to justify George Zimmerman's arrest on a charge of manslaughter.

Prosecutors will now likely spend several weeks studying the case before making a decision on whether to charge Zimmerman.

Sanford police Chief Bill Lee Jr. told the Sentinel on Thursday night that he has invited the U.S. Department of Justice and the Florida Department of Law Enforcement to review the investigation.

"It's an open book," Lee said. "If they want to look at what we did and how we did it and what information we have, they're welcome to it."

Unfreakingbelievable. I know of people who have been jailed and had to await trial for so much less than this, but GZ murdered a child and is walking around free while the prosecutors try to get their **** together and figure out if they can prove a case.

I understand that central FL jurors don't have a great track record, but could someone at least TRY in this case???

:banghead:

 

[octobermoon]

Wow, I guess I better be careful walking around my neighborhood at night. Might get shot for looking like I don't belong. /sarcasm...

:banghead:

 

[octobermoon]

Oh yeah, I will make sure to be judge, jury and executioner of those that commit the offense of walking black in my neck of the woods. I will be sure to follow them after the dispatch has told me not to. GRRRRRRRRR

He was a child.

 

[lauriej]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/1 ... 55795.html
Trayvon Martin Killing's Youngest Witness, 13, Still Can Hear The Screams

The screams rattle around in his daydreams, so loud at night that sleep hasn't come easily. And he can't stop asking himself a thousand what-ifs: What if he could have stopped it? What if he had looked "suspicious" that night, and not Martin?

"They still haven't arrested him yet," Austin said, his chin tucked low. "That's pretty much the main thing that's upsetting me."

"It's really hard to walk the dog by where it happened," he said. He wondered aloud what could have happened if he had been walking the dog just a little later, or behind the house instead of in front.

But most of all he wondered what if he had been the one who piqued Zimmerman's interest. What if he looked suspicious?

 

[lauriej]

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/17/2 ... itual.html

Shooter of Trayvon Martin a habitual caller to 911

Police volunteer program coordinator Wendy Dorival said she met Zimmerman in September at a community neighborhood watch presentation.

“I said, ‘If it’s someone you don’t recognize, call us. We’ll figure it out,’ ” Dorival said. “‘Observe from a safe location.’ There’s even a slide about not being vigilante police. I don’t know how many more times I can repeat it.”

“We are taking a beating over this,” said Chief Lee, who defends the investigation. “This is all very unsettling. I’m sure if George Zimmerman had the opportunity to relive Sunday, Feb. 26, he’d probably do things differently. I’m sure Trayvon would, too.”

--what does he think the victim should have differently? not gone to the store? not wore his hood up and walked slowly? not tried to defend himself?

 

[HiHater]

No, he doesn't have to prove that Tray approached him. He would have to merely prove he was somewhere he lawfully had the right to be, and was in reasonable belief that he was about to be maimed or killed.

His injuries back that up, IMHO. He doesn't have to prove that Tray was the first to engage in the disagreement.

He absolutely has to prove that he was approached, otherwise, all other indications are that he was the AGGRESSOR. His 911 call makes it clear that he was in pursuit of Trayvon, not the other way around. In fact, the 911 tape makes it clear that Trayvon ran from him. How can you chase someone and then claim that they confronted you?

 

[JeannaT]

I don't understand the disconnect here, with people who think Trayvon was shot because he looked suspicious.

Apparently 402 other people "looked suspicious" to GZ that year on his volunteer patrols, and they're all alive to tell about it. And so is GZ.

There was a witness, and injuries that corroborate GZ's self-defense. Why are so many still believing that Trayvon was shot because GZ found him suspicious looking? He was followed because GZ found him to be suspicious. What happened after that - depending on what evidence they have - sounds like very likely a case of self-defense.

 

[octobermoon]

--what does he think the victim should have differently? not gone to the store? not wore his hood up and walked slowly? not tried to defend himself?[/QUOTE]


bbM

Just maddening. :maddening: IMO JMO MOO

 

[HiHater]

I think you can walk after someone in your own neighborhood, and follow them, even asking if they live there and if they attack you because of that you have every right - if their attack is aggressive enough - to shoot.

Given the number of times GZ did this - observed and followed suspicious looking people, I just refuse to believe he attacked physically.

You can do that, but it's called harassment.

 

[octobermoon]

I don't understand the disconnect here, with people who think Trayvon was shot because he looked suspicious.

Apparently 402 other people "looked suspicious" to GZ that year on his volunteer patrols, and they're all alive to tell about it. And so is GZ.

There was a witness, and injuries that corroborate GZ's self-defense. Why are so many still believing that Trayvon was shot because GZ found him suspicious looking? He was followed because GZ found him to be suspicious. What happened after that - depending on what evidence they have - sounds like very likely a case of self-defense.

GZ had a gun and a car. He didn't need to follow this boy. He was already on the phone with police. Why did GZ escalate, push, try to be the "hero" Not listen to police telling him to back off? Why when he had every avenue of escape did he pursue a child? A child on foot.

A young black man was walking down a street. If GZ wasn't there, Trayvon would have walked back to the house. GZ is a vigilante. IMO JMO MOO

 

[JeannaT]

You can do that, but it's called harassment.

No it's not harassment, and I can do that if I want. So could you if you wanted. Harassment is much more severe than approaching someone in your own neighborhood, on private property, approved by the HOA, and asking them if they live in the neighborhood. They don't have to answer, but you have every right to legally encounter them and ask. (Not every day, the same person, or scream taunts at them or throw things at them. You have ever single right as a citizen on private property to approach someone and ask them what they're doing).

When my husband and I were in our early 20s we were building a house in our developing neighborhood, and we were much younger than the other builders. Much younger. So the people who were building the house next door came to the lot one evening as we were in the unfinished upstairs area (on our property) and pretty aggressively asked us if we had permission to be up there. I guess we could have physically attacked them for asking, but instead we said oh yes we're the owners, and introduced ourselves. AAAK awkward on their part.

They were probably the best neighbors we've ever had. Watchful, attentive, and loyal when they know you're not up to mischief. Look out if you are up to mischief. They've moved now after 25 years and I miss them. And yes, he packed heat and at least once pulled his gun on a neighborhood troublemaker.

 

[Velouria]

I think you can walk after someone in your own neighborhood, and follow them, even asking if they live there and if they attack you because of that you have every right - if their attack is aggressive enough - to shoot.

Given the number of times GZ did this - observed and followed suspicious looking people, I just refuse to believe he attacked physically.

I'm curious why you refuse to believe GZ is incapable of having attacked TM? After all, GZ is the one who with an arrest record for assault on a police officer, not TM, who had no history of violence.

We really don't know how many times GZ actually followed those "suspicious looking individuals" on foot, only that he made numerous calls to report them. His remark to 911 that "these @$$4oles get away" could lead one to believe that GZ had become frustrated that police often arrived after the suspect had vanished. Perhaps GZ decided this was "the one that wouldn't get away."

 

[JeannaT]

GZ had a gun and a car. He didn't need to follow this boy. He was already on the phone with police. Why did GZ escalate, push, try to be the "hero" Not listen to police telling him to back off? Why when he had every avenue of escape did he pursue a child? A child on foot.

A young black man was walking down a street. If GZ wasn't there, Trayvon would have walked back to the house. GZ is a vigilante. IMO JMO MOO

I'm a bit done trying to express the other side here.

I do understand how those who want GZ arrested feel, and Trayvon's loss is a sad waste of a young man.

I just have the ability to see both sides. That someone who is physically assaulted can shoot even if prior to that they were being a bit of a Gladys Cravitz. They have the right to be free from physical assault.

Even if a dispatcher told them they aren't needed to follow the suspicious person. They can still do it if they want, and should expect to come away from that without a visit to the medic.