GUILTY FL - Calyx, 16, & Beau Schenecker, 13, shot to death, Tampa, 27 Jan 2011 #5

Status
Not open for further replies.
  • #481
It is unusual to feel so conflicted over a case. typically by now we all have a distinct opinion on what we feel the verdict should be.



For this case, we have to focus on the law.



I think we all can agree that she is clearly mentally ill. What the jury needs to determine is if she knew that what she was doing was wrong, even though she is mentally ill.

I was getting hung up on the possibility of her not knowing the wrongness of her actions because she was mentally ill.



The great points brought up by the last two witnesses have proven to me that she did indeed know that what she was doing was wrong. They provided insight as to the fact that her actions before and after the murders were very telling into her state of mind and her knowing that the murders were wrong.

jmho


I need to have a closer look at Florida's insanity statute. You're right - it will come down to the application of Florida's law.

One of my first posts about this trial said essentially that I believed she had very distorted thinking but it didn't rise to the level of legal insanity.
 
  • #482
Hi Minor :wave:

Thank you for this information, and I also have a question for you.

When you are in trial, do you find that the gender makeup of a jury makes any difference at all when determining the verdict? There are 8 males and 4 females in this particular trial. Any thoughts?

You are very much appreciated here at WS's


Thank you :D

There is so much study about jury composition and theories about demographics that would favor a particular side, but in my experience juries are a crapshoot no matter how they are composed.
 
  • #483
  • #484
Here's FL definition of insanity:

775.027 Insanity defense.—
(1) AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSE.—All persons are presumed to be sane. It is an affirmative defense to a criminal prosecution that, at the time of the commission of the acts constituting the offense, the defendant was insane. Insanity is established when:
(a) The defendant had a mental infirmity, disease, or defect; and
(b) Because of this condition, the defendant:
1. Did not know what he or she was doing or its consequences; or
2. Although the defendant knew what he or she was doing and its consequences, the defendant did not know that what he or she was doing was wrong.
Mental infirmity, disease, or defect does not constitute a defense of insanity except as provided in this subsection.
(2) BURDEN OF PROOF.—The defendant has the burden of proving the defense of insanity by clear and convincing evidence.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes...ng=&URL=0700-0799/0775/Sections/0775.027.html
 
  • #485
  • #486
Defense gets a significant concession from Otto - JS might have thought it was the right thing to do to kill her kids and send them to heaven

Good point.......At The Time Of The Killing, JS very well could have thought she was doing the best she could do for the kids. IMO, defense could score if that thought if drilled over and over into closing.
 
  • #487
I guess she lied to Dr O then cuz she apparently took oxy's the night she killed the kids.

Or she ran out, and her surgeon (who probably prescribed them in the first place) had them refilled. Or, she later found a bottle from an old surgery that she hadn't used up.

Blood testing after the murders did reveal oxycodone.
 
  • #488
I found this article and was quite upset that it mentioned Julie as the "mother"/survivor in the obituary part at the bottom. These murders are heartbreaking. Sane, insane~ I don't know, I'm glad I am not on this jury. Nothing is going to bring these precious children back. It is so very sad.


https://offthebase.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/col-schenecker-our-journey-to-healing/

It is heartbreaking that two children had their lives ripped from them by their own mother.

JS's referencing Memorial Services is very strong evidence that she knew she shot and killed her kids and that her attempts to say to LE that she didn't know or wasn't sure if the kids were dead or alive were lies/wishful thinking. JS knew.

Who makes note of a Memorial Service unless the is a strong belief that the person is dead and needs one? Also another indicator that JS had her wits about her and knew what would come up/be the right thing to do.
 
  • #489
Alcohol abuse did not contribute significantly to these murders.

It's part of her she was. Was it affecting her on the night of the murders -- all we can know is that she told us that she was not using alcohol until after the children were shot.

When JS told you she woke with a clear thought, "I'm going to kill myself today." Yes. And she had this thought many times in the past. Dr. O: I had no reason to doubt it.

Dr. O: she talked about the negative effects of a parent committing suicide on the children, including her own.

She went to a pawn shot on Fowler, close to where she lives -- Dr. O: that's what she told me. They directed her to a place she'd never heard of. She said she got there by putting the address in her GPS.

She found out she had to wait several days. Dr. O: that's correct. She had no preference for the particular weapon, that's what she said.

Dr. O: she said as she exited the house with Beau, she thought she had to wash his soccer uniform.

She was still thinking about doing the laundry for the children? Dr. O: yes

She felt her role in life as a mother was to protect the children? Dr. O: yes, oh yes

Even after shooting Calyx, she said she tried to manipulate her mouth so it would like a smile. She put her in bed and kissed her and hugged her? Dr. O: yes

And she covered Beau with a blanket and kissed him and hugged him? Dr. O: yes

And on the morning she got up and decided to buy a weapon, she should have been hospitalized. Dr. O: definitely, without a doubt

Any measure of Mrs. S's state of mind at the time of the event would have to include an acceptance of the fact that she was a severely mentally ill woman? Dr. O: yes

I don't know much about guns but wouldn't their faces have been blown to pieces from the gun shots close range? Bone fragments and brain matter everywhere?

Sorry to be so graphic.
 
  • #490
This is one case where I can equally see the merits of both the defense and state cases. I don't think that's ever happened before lol

My opinion goes back and forth with each witness and even when a witness goes from direct exam to cross exam

I have wavered too, but am giving her NG - Insanity, unless the prosecution closing is powerful enough to sway me.
 
  • #491
It is heartbreaking that two children had their lives ripped from them by their own mother.

JS's referencing Memorial Services is very strong evidence that she knew she shot and killed her kids and that her attempts to say to LE that she didn't know or wasn't sure if the kids were dead or alive were lies/wishful thinking. JS knew.

Who makes note of a Memorial Service unless the is a strong belief that the person is dead and needs one? Also another indicator that JS had her wits about her and knew what would come up/be the right thing to do.

IIRC she also was included in that memorial service---she wanted to be buried with the kids
 
  • #492
Just got back a short while ago, can someone tell me what time trial resumes. Are we still in rebuttal?
 
  • #493
The housekeeper came to the house on Wednesdays (if memory serves), the killings happened on Thursday.

So where did all those empty bottles of wine and beer come from if she didn't start drinking until after the killings?
 
  • #494
I have wavered too, but am giving her NG - Insanity, unless the prosecution closing is powerful enough to sway me.

I'm pretty much where you are, Chelly. Very glad not to be a juror on this case, bet that will be some tough deliberations.

Are closings tomorrow? I missed the end of this morning's testimony.
 
  • #495
I think Dr. Taylor does an excellent job of categorizing the aspects of sanity one would need to consider in this case, and then giving ample evidence for his opinion on each category. His testimony would be quite compelling for the jury, I think.

However, with regard to understanding the wrongfulness of an action, he sub-categorized into 3 areas --
1) Did she believe her actions were wrong?
2) Did she understand that society would consider her actions wrong?
3) Did she understand that she broke the law?

I think a great many of us participate in actions that may be considered wrong by a large number of society, and yet we do it anyway, without feeling personal guilt. For instance, many couples live together out of wedlock, going against the teachings of their church or mosque, without feeling personal guilt. Or, a gay person may keep their sexuality in the closet, not because they personally believe it's wrong, but because they may feel they'll be judged by society. Consequently, I believe that lying to the gun shop owner about her intent does not prove that JS understood her actions were wrong, even though she was aware that other may.

I habitually drive 10 mph over the speed limit -- and even though I'm aware it's against the law, I don't think about it much -- my immediate concern is getting to work on time. I don't feel personal guilt over it, and in some cases, even believe it's the better thing to do (so I don't get run over by everyone around me going 15 mph over the limit). It doesn't appear that JS gave much thought to the legality of what she did, or it's enormity. In her police interview, she said she didn't want to go to jail or prison, but seemed to think she could pay a bonus to make it go away. That seems to indicate a lack of understanding of how very horrible -- morally and criminally -- her actions were.

So...it seems to boil down to what her personal conception of the murders was -- was it a "mercy killing?" Did she consider the mouthiness of the children as evidence that they were acquiring her mental disease? And thus wish to end things for them so they wouldn't suffer a lifetime as she had?

Or...was it an act of vengeance against her husband and children?
 
  • #496
Just got back a short while ago, can someone tell me what time trial resumes. Are we still in rebuttal?

In about ten minutes, Chelly, and yes--rebuttal still.
 
  • #497
I'm pretty much where you are, Chelly. Very glad not to be a juror on this case, bet that will be some tough deliberations.

Are closings tomorrow? I missed the end of this morning's testimony.

Missed most of this morning too. Trying to get up to speed myself.
 
  • #498
  • #499
The housekeeper came to the house on Wednesdays (if memory serves), the killings happened on Thursday.

So where did all those empty bottles of wine and beer come from if she didn't start drinking until after the killings?

Just pointing this out as well.... the housekeeper said the door was never locked even when she showed up on days she wasn't scheduled for. That day, the door was locked.
 
  • #500
I don't know much about guns but wouldn't their faces have been blown to pieces from the gun shots close range? Bone fragments and brain matter everywhere?

Sorry to be so graphic.

I believe the answer is yes. And she shot them twice. The last shot was to the mouth on both children.

She had a plan in place but had to change the plan because Beau found the gun. So her plan changed which shows logic, at the time. Could her fear have been the Beau would have reported her having the gun so he had to die in the car?

I would not have a problem with her being institutionalized if she had been cooperative during her rehab but should an institution release her because she had convinced them she is "okay now", I would have serious concerns about what she would do to PS. For someone who wanted to die she sure is fighting hard for the joint money that she and PS held together. jmo
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Staff online

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
95
Guests online
1,130
Total visitors
1,225

Forum statistics

Threads
632,413
Messages
18,626,221
Members
243,146
Latest member
CheffieSleuth8
Back
Top