FL - Dawn Brancheau, Female Trainer Killed at Shamu Stadium

[Penelope]

This whale has been in captivity for 27 years. He knows the difference between a toy and a human. IMO

Hadn't thought of it that way, but if a "killer whale" is really a species of dolphin, based on what I have read about the intelligence of dolphins, Tilikum must have known the difference between a human and a toy. If we extrapolate further -- then he either wanted to play with her and was too rough, or he wanted to inflict some sort of harm. One dolphin expert that was widely quoted by the press said that he (paraphrased) meant to do it and that he hates humans and that he will do it again if he has the opportunity. Kind of chilling -- but it may be accurate. (This is all supposition and my opinion)

 

[Blue_Dolphin308]

Oh for crying out loud. He also had marks on him consistent with the whale biting him. If the whale wouldn't let him get out of the pool then he would eventually die for hypothermia or drowning, would he not?

Why was he there in the first place??? It was AFTER HOURS at seaworld. He had NO business being their in the first place. IMO He got what was coming to him! If he wanted to be stupid enough to go there AFTER hours, when he KNEW for a fact that he was not to be anywhere near the tank, then He got what was coming to him!

 

[Blue_Dolphin308]

The man was found on the whale's back.
What do you think would happen if somebody kept you in a cold pool and you couldn't get out?
Jeez.
This clearly is a very dangerous animals that should not be anywhere near people. He just pulled a woman into water and killed her. He was connected to two previous deaths. If this were a dog most people would be outraged and demanded he be put down. Why some try to pretend he is just cute and cuddly is beyond my understanding.

Find me prove that he was found on the WHALES back. I beg to differ here!

 

[LinasK]

Find me prove that he was found on the WHALES back. I beg to differ here!

I also read that in articles, but would have to dig back to find them...

 

[Blue_Dolphin308]

If somebody grabs you by the ponytail, drags you into the pool and kills you, that's an accident? Really?

It could be, because that was also a form of play for the whales. It was even stated on tv, the last few days, that maybe tilli was trying to play.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

Yes, that's correct, that's the kind of platform it was, in shallow water. I've been to SeaWorld in San Diego many times in my life and seen the Shamu show many times. It's not like she was pulled over a wall or such, which is what was implied.
We go to see the whales jumping and to get splashed, that's entertainment, watching someone get killed is not- that's mental anguish, and not what I expect to see when I pay to go to Sea World.

I don't expect to see all the numbered things I posted in the post you quoted either, but it happens.

 

[jjenny]

It could be, because that was also a form of play for the whales. It was even stated on tv, the last few days, that maybe tilli was trying to play.

Form of play by the whales? Do whales have ponytails they play with?
It's a smart intelligent animal and I bet he knew exactly what he was doing.

 

[Gracenote]

next we'll see trainers all bald as a coot

Thank you, I needed a chuckle right about now. This whole subject is just beyond upsetting.

 

[jjenny]

Find me prove that he was found on the WHALES back. I beg to differ here!

It's been reported in pretty much all the articles I've seen about the incident. The man is described as found draped over whale's back.
"In 1999, a 35-year-old Florida man who snuck after hours into the whale pool at SeaWorld in Orlando was found dead the next morning, draped over the back of Tillikum, Ky's father and the largest captive orca in the world."
http://www.theprovince.com/life/Jul...mily+history+slams+trainer/2608299/story.html

 

[jjenny]

Since we know the trainer was "laying" next to the whale with her hair in a long ponytail and the whale grabbed the ponytail, that backs up what the guy said in the article I linked earlier that it was trainer error.

I am not even convinced he grabbed her by the ponytail. In the article I've read, witness reported he grabbed her by her waist. Two other witnesses believe he grabbed her by her upper arm.
"Another audience member, Victoria Biniak, told WKMG-TV the whale "took off really fast in the tank, and then he came back, shot up in the air, grabbed the trainer by the waist and started thrashing around, and one of her shoes flew off.""

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/02/24/national/main6239435.shtml

 

[Kimberlyd125]

Well, that's what the other trainers are saying happened.

ETA: I'm sure there is tape of it and the details will come out later.

 

[jjenny]

She wasn't allowed even the shallow part of the water with Tilly. She broke protocol, and it unfortunately resulted in her death. I can understand that a ponytail might look remarkably like a fish in the water.....and the orca grabbed her hair, thinking it was food and then thrashed his "food" around, then that means he did not deliberately cause the death of the trainer.

I realize Sea World appear to blame her because she had a ponytail.
Witnesses who were there reported she was grabbed by her waist or her upper arm. You can't blame someone for having an waist and an arm, can you?
By the way, she was doing it out in the open in front of people, and I bet it wasn't the first time she was in the water with the whale, so I would guess Sea World knew about it. If it were against the rules, why didn't they reprimand her, ask her to stop it, etc?

 

[Tizzle]

Animal activists call for changes at SeaWorld following trainer's orca death
>>snipped<<
Another animal-protection group, the Humane Society of the United States, didn't go as far as PETA in condemning SeaWorld but argued that conditions there were insufficient to keep an animal like Tilikum in a healthy mental state. Naomi Rose, a marine mammal scientist for the Humane Society, told the Orlando Sentinel that "[in] terms of his stress levels, his size is a factor," referencing the orca's much-publicized 12,000-pound frame. "He is so big, I don't care how big SeaWorld's tanks are, they are too small for him."

Edward O. Keith, an associate professor at Nova Southeastern University's Oceanographic Center, echoed Rose's sentiments in an interview with the Sentinel. "We've proved in the past few years that putting people in solitary confinement makes them crazy," Keith said. "How can we expect anything different from marine animals? When animals get under stress, they act out; they do crazy things."

Onetime "Flipper" trainer turned anti-marine-mammal-captivity advocate Ric O'Barry (who wrote memorably about the slaughter of dolphins in the Japanese village of Taiji for Unleashed last month) has also spoken out against SeaWorld this week. O'Barry and colleague David Phillips released a statement calling for "the immediate initiation of a federal investigation into SeaWorld&#8217;s possible negligence and violations of the Marine Mammal Protection Act."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Another reason Tilikum couldn't survive outside a captive environment, Ventre said, is that "he doesn't have any viable teeth left. One of the [things you do when] putting orcas in a facility is that you have to separate them with gates, and what they tend to do is threat-displays at each other to establish dominance."

Orcas live in matriarchal, rather than male-dominated, groups, meaning that Tilikum "is a sub-dominant animal in that society. He has a little bit less room to maneuver because of his massive size. He might be the largest animal in captivity.... So, consequently, his teeth have broken off. And that's why you'll see the trainers every morning and evening using a water pick to flush out the impacted fish that gathers in the remnants of the teeth ... so it doesn't lead to something like an infection."

Of course, in addition to the difficulties inherent in releasing an animal like Tilikum, he's incredibly valuable to SeaWorld and Blackstone. He's fathered a number of calves during his stay at the Orlando facility and, according to SeaWorld's chief of animal training, Chuck Tompkins, his companionship is important to the seven other orcas at SeaWorld Orlando.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/unl...r-end-to-sea-world-captive-orcas-tilikum.html

 

[Blue_Dolphin308]

Form of play by the whales? Do whales have ponytails they play with?
It's a smart intelligent animal and I bet he knew exactly what he was doing.

No but he could have thought it was a toy, since they do play with toys. Did you see the video they were showing of what the trainer was doing just before the accident?? It showed the trainer bobbing her head side to side , and the whale following her head movements like it was a toy.

Almost similar to a cat following a piece of yarn back and forth, before it pounces. I know its a bad analogy but its the best I can come up with.

 

[Blue_Dolphin308]

It's been reported in pretty much all the articles I've seen about the incident. The man is described as found draped over whale's back.
"In 1999, a 35-year-old Florida man who snuck after hours into the whale pool at SeaWorld in Orlando was found dead the next morning, draped over the back of Tillikum, Ky's father and the largest captive orca in the world."
http://www.theprovince.com/life/Jul...mily+history+slams+trainer/2608299/story.html

Ok I understand now. But it still does NOT change my feeling on this. The guy knew that he was not suppose to be in the enclosure, but chose to be. Remember the lion attack at the San diego zoo? Why were people sticking up for the lion back then? Why were people blaming the guy?? Because the guy that jumped in the pen had no business being in there!!! PERIOD!!!! The guy who was killed in the water , REGARDLESS of whether he was killed by the whales, or by hypothermia, got what was coming to him!!! I know it sounds cruel, but sooner or later people need to take responsibility for their actions rather then trying to blame it on a whale, lion, or another person!

 

[Blue_Dolphin308]

At first it was stated that the whale grabbed her waist, but then it quickly turned to the whale grabbing her ponytail. I think it was the ponytail they grabbed. Details get confused in the first few moments of an emergency. So details could have initially been reported wrong.

 

[Melly53]

As we have learned from the many criminal cases here on WS eyewitness accounts are usually the most unreliable so I am not at all convinced that he took off around the pool and then came back, jumped up and grabbed her by the arm or waist and pulled her in. It just doesn't make sense after seeing the video below.

This is a much better video of what happened taken just seconds before the attack, from a different angle than the one we saw where she was swaying and bobbing back and forth with him. This appears to have been taken from the other side of the pool, facing Dawn and the back of Tilly. You can clearly see that she was laying down on the shelf rubbing him. He does not appear to be on the shelf at all but fully in the water. To me this makes it a bit clearer as to how her pony tail could have drifted into the water which he then grabbed pulling her in. I think he did the fast swimming around the pool AFTER he grabbed her...not before.

If you have trouble with it not playing by clicking on the arrow, then try clicking on the title just above it and it should play.

Video Before Killer Whale Attack - CBS News Video

If you look at this aerial video of SeaWorld it appears that she was in the large rock lined area that you see at the top of the screen at about 50 seconds into the video, not in the main stadium performance area. I checked the SeaWorld Orlando website and there are pictures posted by various people that have attended a "Dining with Shamu" event, which had just ended when the accident occurred, and it does appear to be held in this area.

http://news.yahoo.com/video/orlandowesh-16122564/aerial-view-of-shamu-stadium-at-seaworld-18330171

JMO and I am sure some will disagree but I am trying to look at it objectively to get a better understanding of how it happened.

 

[Gracenote]

As we have learned from the many criminal cases here on WS eyewitness accounts are usually the most unreliable so I am not at all convinced that he took off around the pool and then came back, jumped up and grabbed her by the arm or waist and pulled her in. It just doesn't make sense after seeing the video below.

This is a much better video of what happened taken just seconds before the attack, from a different angle than the one we saw where she was swaying and bobbing back and forth with him. This appears to have been taken from the other side of the pool, facing Dawn and the back of Tilly. You can clearly see that she was laying down on the shelf rubbing him. He does not appear to be on the shelf at all but fully in the water. To me this makes it a bit clearer as to how her pony tail could have drifted into the water which he then grabbed pulling her in. I think he did the fast swimming around the pool AFTER he grabbed her...not before.

If you have trouble with it not playing by clicking on the arrow, then try clicking on the title just above it and it should play.

Video Before Killer Whale Attack - CBS News Video

If you look at this aerial video of SeaWorld it appears that she was in the large rock lined area that you see at the top of the screen at about 50 seconds into the video, not in the main stadium performance area. I checked the SeaWorld Orlando website and there are pictures posted by various people that have attended a "Dining with Shamu" event, which had just ended when the accident occurred, and it does appear to be held in this area.

http://news.yahoo.com/video/orlandowesh-16122564/aerial-view-of-shamu-stadium-at-seaworld-18330171

JMO and I am sure some will disagree but I am trying to look at it objectively to get a better understanding of how it happened.

Well, looking at the video, she was in the water with him. Laying on that ledge she was submerged and he was not used to having people in the water with him. Plus I thought they were not supposed to get in the water with him due to his history. She put herself in harm's way IMO.

 

[Celeste]

Thanks for that video, Melly53. It's kinda creepy the way the orca behind the Sea World spokesman (during that press conference) slowly floats down and begins nodding its head. It's almost as if he's taunting the public.

Maybe they do hate us! You really couldn't blame them if they did hate us. Wouldn't you?

 

[Blue_Dolphin308]

Going to steal a quote from someone on the morning show today.

"To say that Seaworld should not make a profit is like saying Ford should not make a profit, after all people die in cars everyday, does that mean that ford shouldn't make a profit?

And it was further CONFIRMED that keiko (sp) did in fact starve to death. He contracted pnemonia, and starved to death.

Also for those of you that are saying that Seaworld should release Tilli, you are not considering the fact that if he did in fact do this intentionally, whats not to say that he won't do it intentionally in the wild??? That he won't grab someone in the wild???