GUILTY FL - FSU Law Professor Dan Markel Murdered by Hitmen #19

Status
Not open for further replies.
  • #361
STS was pretty spicy tonight. Joel tried to head off the brewing Carl Steinbeck allegations that Tim Jansen is "on the take" and is being secretly paid by the Adelsons to parrot their talking points. Now, that allegation is completely baseless and borderline deranged and so Tim Jansen should be given an opportunity to respond. However, Joel went about it in such a weaselly way - he wouldn't use Carl Steinbeck's name but he basically took credit for giving Steinbeck a platform and growing his Youtube Channel.

Karen Cyphers, to her credit, basically forced Joel to "name" Carl Steinbeck and defended Carl's record on predicting the convictions against Charlie. She also questioned how Tim could know that Wendi was seeking advice from some Atlanta attorney who specializes in Kastigar. Fair enough.

But the idea that an attorney who doesn't believe that the State has enough evidence yet to convict Wendi must be "on the take" or "has a hidden agenda" is ludicrous given that the State has not yet charged Wendi. I mean, this is a proposition that is self-evident, not a conspiracy.

I thought Jansen's commentary on the trial was generally pretty good. I watched the whole thing on his stream. But a couple of things raised my eyebrows.

First, Jansen has been repeating the fact that WA has derivative use immunity over and over again, on STS, CourtTV, and in the Tallahassee Democrat. He argues that her derivative use immunity is a barrier to prosecution and that it's "really hard to get around." Jansen is the only lawyer I've seen arguing that this is an important reason why WA might not be charged. According to a bunch of other experts, that is wrong, and Jansen has yet to name a single piece of evidence resulting from WA"s testimony that wasn't available independently. I was surprised to see him double-down on this point and rant about it again last night. He was very aggressive. It was really weird, especially when he previously publicly announced that WA was consulting with an immunity expert- where would he get this info, if not from the defense team?

Second, having watched his entire stream, an interesting pattern emerged. Jansen certainly said that WA was unlikable and not credible. But I never heard him say a thing about any of the evidence in the trial implicating WA- even when this was the natural inference from the evidence and testimony presented- and even when he said he found the testimony credible- so it was confusing.

Jansen was present for most of the trial and commented freely on all kinds of other stuff. I couldn't help but notice that he was absent for WA's direct, had no comment on Stephen Webster (who testified that WA could've been sanctioned), and had no comment on Sgt. Hale (who confirmed the celebration dinner). Interestingly, he was also absent when Sgt. Corbett went into WA's texts regarding Markel's schedule, and WA's trip to the liquor store. At one point, Jansen is madly texting, gives the screen a "thumbs-up" gesture, and subsequently makes a comment about how crazy it would be to think that WA may have communicated with the other conspirators right after the shooting.

I'm not alleging anything, just giving my subjective observations from watching the stream.

I thought the jailhouse interview excerpt reporting a previous hit attempts was very interesting. I do recall that there was a legal reason why that witness couldn't be called- pretty sure the mansplaining by the two male lawyers was not fair or accurate.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #362
Agree with both of you. Everyone knew who Joel was talking about, and I think he was trying to not be confrontational. Regardless, the whole thing is ridiculous. Everyone wants the same thing. A’s convicted. At times, I have thought that Tim has sounded like he is giving defense talking points. However, it is important to the dialogue to give other points of view. Mostly, he has been talking about how guilty Charlie and Donna are. But if people are just an echo chamber of not hearing one opposing view, then they will be really upset if W is never charged or if a jury hangs. They will be blindsided when one of those two things might happen because they never listened to anything else other than this is a slam dunk against her. It isn’t. And the fact that she is attractive does matter because look at the Casey Anthony trial.

I think that he probably rushed to be the first to give the news that WA consulted with that Atlanta attorney, and was over-the-top in making that perhaps a bigger issue than it really is in his excitement to be the first to say it. I don’t have a problem that I’m sure he speaks to everyone from both sides up there. He is part of a very small-knit community. He knew that when Donna got arrested. He surely does not have to reveal who he is talking to.

I always loved hearing Carl’s reasons why WendI should be indicted. I enjoyed and subscribed to his channel with his brother. But I actually stopped watching because his rhetoric got too much a couple weeks ago starting with saying that WA could off her and her children over this. Carl has attacked Tim on the air on STS. Going back even a few months ago, he accused him of having secret communications back then. STS has been the best show with having a range of people who are very knowledgeable discussing the issues. It’s ridiculous that it’s getting ruined with now people fighting, taking sides.

I just wish it could go back to how it has been- enjoying their shows with all that the guests have to bring to the table. I just don’t see how Carl ever goes back on that show though now.

BBM -

Par for the course with true crime these days. Look at the Murdaugh case as an example. Some podcasters, journalists, writers think they "own" the case and all material contained within. The eventual goal for most of these folks is to make a buck. Follow the money.
 
  • #363
@Elfwoman335 :
Could it be as simple as Tim Jansen wants to be eligible to represent WA in the future?
 
  • #364
Harvey will be the only one who can pass info between DA and CA. It would have to be in code and that would be a risky burden for him.
The lawyers can pass info as well unfortunately and probably will.
 
  • #365
Regarding Wendi, not sure if it was tonight's show, but Tim made an interesting point that the State thought it needed Wendi's testimony in the last 3 trials -- primarily for motive. Maybe the State will call Wendi again in Donna's trial. If/when they no longer need her as a witness, maybe she'll be charged. JMO.
agree...the pattern is clear and things have worked so far...it may take more time and patience but can't argue with the results.
 
  • #366
<modsnip: quoted post was removed/not an approved source>
Wendi has , from the outside, always seemed to enjoy her life....what is really going on inside has been much different.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #367
And just as Karen was really making headway, Joel cut her off, protecting TIm. He would never have done that to a man.
I've only just finished watching the entirety of it.
So while it's still fresh in my mind, really making headway on what point?

ETA I hadn't ready @Missyrocks5 post when I posted mine
 
  • #368
@Elfwoman335 :
Could it be as simple as Tim Jansen wants to be eligible to represent WA in the future?
How could he ever represent her considering what he's said in public about her guilt over the last few years?

( TBC I mean his consistent personal view on her complicity as opposed to the very different issue on whether the state had gotten enough evidence for a successful prosecution of her)
 
  • #369
Did Donna get rid of her regular cell phone and have a new phone when she was detained at the airport? I doubt it. Would love to know what they find on her phone. JMO.
 
  • #370
I thought Jansen's commentary on the trial was generally pretty good. I watched the whole thing on his stream. But a couple of things raised my eyebrows.

First, Jansen has been repeating the fact that WA has derivative use immunity over and over again, on STS, CourtTV, and in the Tallahassee Democrat. He argues that her derivative use immunity is a barrier to prosecution and that it's "really hard to get around." Jansen is the only lawyer I've seen arguing that this is an important reason why WA might not be charged. According to a bunch of other experts, that is wrong, and Jansen has yet to name a single piece of evidence resulting from WA"s testimony that wasn't available independently. I was surprised to see him double-down on this point and rant about it again last night. He was very aggressive. It was really weird, especially when he previously publicly announced that WA was consulting with an immunity expert- where would he get this info, if not from the defense team?

Second, having watched his entire stream, an interesting pattern emerged. Jansen certainly said that WA was unlikable and not credible. But I never heard him say a thing about any of the evidence in the trial implicating WA- even when this was the natural inference from the evidence and testimony presented- and even when he said he found the testimony credible- so it was confusing.

Jansen was present for most of the trial and commented freely on all kinds of other stuff. I couldn't help but notice that he was absent for WA's direct, had no comment on Stephen Webster (who testified that WA could've been sanctioned), and had no comment on Sgt. Hale (who confirmed the celebration dinner). Interestingly, he was also absent when Sgt. Corbett went into WA's texts regarding Markel's schedule, and WA's trip to the liquor store. At one point, Jansen is madly texting, gives the screen a "thumbs-up" gesture, and subsequently makes a comment about how crazy it would be to think that WA may have communicated with the other conspirators right after the shooting.

I'm not alleging anything, just giving my subjective observations from watching the stream.

I thought the jailhouse interview excerpt reporting a previous hit attempts was very interesting. I do recall that there was a legal reason why that witness couldn't be called- pretty sure the mansplaining by the two male lawyers was not fair or accurate.
My own impression is that Tim Jansen is a career lawyer but not a true crime hobbyist and has not spent the 500 or so hours watching and re-watching all the previous trials or dissecting Wendi's interviews, the wiretaps and the podcasts. His knowledge comes, not from his own deep dive analysis and conviction about each player's actions, the evidence against them and their guilt and innocence but rather from the periphery - being a local and a member of the Tally legal community with very real contacts inside TPD, the SAO and FBI. He is friends with Pat Sanford, Craig Isom, Judge Wheeler and probably 20 or 30 other LE people working the case.

He's providing free color commentary and relies on his own experience and provides some insider information. He was the first to say that Katie's proffer was an absolute gong show and provided zero evidence or corroboration. I was so shocked when he said that, that I was SURE he was on the take. How could that even be possible? She was quarterbacking both murder trips, renting cars, paying the killers, managing SG and CA during the murder and the bump. Impossible! But lo and behold, her proffers may go down as the worst and least believable interviews ever conducted by LE. Its mind-boggling how bad they were and Jansen obviously knew that.

The State ended up using Katie at trial, which is now being used as proof that Jansen was "wrong" all along. But Jansen himself - after he heard the Defense opening statement said that she may have to testify given their insane strategy - and Jansen said that a couple days before she testified.

Tim does get tripped up on some details, for sure. And like most people reporting a news story when they have sources and "news" like Donna's arrest - he definitely wants to be "first" to report it. His coverage on this case has him appearing regularly on Court TV and now Good Morning America. This is a big deal for him (which is probably a good argument for why Tim absolutely should go back and do a deep dive and make a complete assessement of all the evidence and each person's invovlement/credibility/legal exposure. Thats my biggest issue with Tim).

I suspect his deference to Wendi's use and derivative-use immunity is because it was such a big deal in the Brian Winchester case. Winchester's derivative use immunity was the reason he could never be prosecuted. Obviously, this case is completely different but he believes that every bit of her testimony is immunized and the defense could raise Kastigar issues on anything she was asked about.

I don't agree with Tim at all on the derivative-use immunity. He has backed off this a bit. I think the biggest challenges to prosecuting Wendi are:

1. Her 6 hour police interview, where she is rambling off her own family. I know she is a pathological liar and a sociopath and that the entire thing is a performance, but have to admit she is a good actress and could very easily come across as believable to 1 or 2 or even 12 jurors the first time they watch it.

2. She is not involved in the bump. No on wires, not meeting in secret. This is the most damaging evidence against Charlie and Donna and she is not involved.

The prosecution is going to need to be able to completely demolish both of these issues for a jury to convict her beyond a reasonable doubt.
 
  • #371
Whoa -- Donna's arraignment has been set for December 12 at 8:45am before Judge Everett-- same day as Charlie's sentencing (set for 2:30pm). Dates can be seen in the on-line docket. Tagging @Niner.
 
Last edited:
  • #372
Harvey will be the only one who can pass info between DA and CA. It would have to be in code and that would be a risky burden for him.

Are you sure about this? The judge's rules yesterday explicitly prohibited DA from talking with victims or witnesses. HA was a witness to the arrest on the jet way. I do agree that DA can communicate with CA indirectly via two hops: her lawyer first who can then relay info to HA.
 
  • #373
I thought Jansen's commentary on the trial was generally pretty good. I watched the whole thing on his stream. But a couple of things raised my eyebrows.

First, Jansen has been repeating the fact that WA has derivative use immunity over and over again, on STS, CourtTV, and in the Tallahassee Democrat. He argues that her derivative use immunity is a barrier to prosecution and that it's "really hard to get around." Jansen is the only lawyer I've seen arguing that this is an important reason why WA might not be charged. According to a bunch of other experts, that is wrong, and Jansen has yet to name a single piece of evidence resulting from WA"s testimony that wasn't available independently. I was surprised to see him double-down on this point and rant about it again last night. He was very aggressive. It was really weird, especially when he previously publicly announced that WA was consulting with an immunity expert- where would he get this info, if not from the defense team?

Second, having watched his entire stream, an interesting pattern emerged. Jansen certainly said that WA was unlikable and not credible. But I never heard him say a thing about any of the evidence in the trial implicating WA- even when this was the natural inference from the evidence and testimony presented- and even when he said he found the testimony credible- so it was confusing.

Jansen was present for most of the trial and commented freely on all kinds of other stuff. I couldn't help but notice that he was absent for WA's direct, had no comment on Stephen Webster (who testified that WA could've been sanctioned), and had no comment on Sgt. Hale (who confirmed the celebration dinner). Interestingly, he was also absent when Sgt. Corbett went into WA's texts regarding Markel's schedule, and WA's trip to the liquor store. At one point, Jansen is madly texting, gives the screen a "thumbs-up" gesture, and subsequently makes a comment about how crazy it would be to think that WA may have communicated with the other conspirators right after the shooting.

I'm not alleging anything, just giving my subjective observations from watching the stream.

I thought the jailhouse interview excerpt reporting a previous hit attempts was very interesting. I do recall that there was a legal reason why that witness couldn't be called- pretty sure the mansplaining by the two male lawyers was not fair or accurate.
thanks Elfwoman ... had the same thoughts. Thanks for putting into words!!
 
Last edited:
  • #374
I thought Jansen's commentary on the trial was generally pretty good. I watched the whole thing on his stream. But a couple of things raised my eyebrows.

First, Jansen has been repeating the fact that WA has derivative use immunity over and over again, on STS, CourtTV, and in the Tallahassee Democrat. He argues that her derivative use immunity is a barrier to prosecution and that it's "really hard to get around." Jansen is the only lawyer I've seen arguing that this is an important reason why WA might not be charged. According to a bunch of other experts, that is wrong, and Jansen has yet to name a single piece of evidence resulting from WA"s testimony that wasn't available independently. I was surprised to see him double-down on this point and rant about it again last night. He was very aggressive. It was really weird, especially when he previously publicly announced that WA was consulting with an immunity expert- where would he get this info, if not from the defense team?

Second, having watched his entire stream, an interesting pattern emerged. Jansen certainly said that WA was unlikable and not credible. But I never heard him say a thing about any of the evidence in the trial implicating WA- even when this was the natural inference from the evidence and testimony presented- and even when he said he found the testimony credible- so it was confusing.

Jansen was present for most of the trial and commented freely on all kinds of other stuff. I couldn't help but notice that he was absent for WA's direct, had no comment on Stephen Webster (who testified that WA could've been sanctioned), and had no comment on Sgt. Hale (who confirmed the celebration dinner). Interestingly, he was also absent when Sgt. Corbett went into WA's texts regarding Markel's schedule, and WA's trip to the liquor store. At one point, Jansen is madly texting, gives the screen a "thumbs-up" gesture, and subsequently makes a comment about how crazy it would be to think that WA may have communicated with the other conspirators right after the shooting.

I'm not alleging anything, just giving my subjective observations from watching the stream.

I thought the jailhouse interview excerpt reporting a previous hit attempts was very interesting. I do recall that there was a legal reason why that witness couldn't be called- pretty sure the mansplaining by the two male lawyers was not fair or accurate.

I am going to look at the STS live feeds - but it takes time and I don't want to do an overly long reply post in reference to your 20 or so points.

I just had a look at one of days you have referenced and for example on the day you say he's absent ( bolded text) he was present and actually says loudly on air ' She's just a Liar!'

(It's in the sequence where he suggests that the Trescott issue needs a video to show the jury that Wendi's story is not credible)
 
Last edited:
  • #375
Tim does get tripped up on some details, for sure. And like most people reporting a news story when they have sources and "news" like Donna's arrest - he definitely wants to be "first" to report it. His coverage on this case has him appearing regularly on Court TV and now Good Morning America. This is a big deal for him (which is probably a good argument for why Tim absolutely should go back and do a deep dive and make a complete assessement of all the evidence and each person's invovlement/credibility/legal exposure. Thats my biggest issue with Tim).
BBM
Yes, Shakehead, he seems to get details or names mixed up frequently and no-one corrects! Yikes!!
I enjoy views from both Tim and Carl.
 
  • #376
It was indeed cowardly of Joel not to call out Carl. Carl made those comments/accusations about Tim publicly and he should expect a public response. Then when Karen called it out, Joel backtracked a bit saying it wasn’t necessarily about Carl! Huh? Again, cowardly. I think Karen’s comment and Joel’s weasel backtracking upset Tim. I’m getting tired of Tim myself because I’ve been overexposed to him but as an insider he has been a great resource for the audience. I think Joel needs to give him a break! Carl is way outta line imo.

JMO
I was glad Karen pushed the issue. It was a bashing of Carl while he was not there to defend himself. I think Carl may have been out of line ... but I still trust him. (Tim, too)
 
  • #377
Whoa -- Donna's arraignment has been set for December 12 at 8:45am before Judge Everett-- same day as Charlie's sentencing (set for 2:30pm). Dates can be seen in the on-line docket. Tagging @Niner.

Thanks a bunch! :)
 
  • #378
So aside from solving the case 2 days in, Jeff Lacasse basically correctly diagnosed Charlie Adelson as a sociopath with no empathy or conscience, a sexual sadist, antisocial personality, a borderline personality, etc. Pretty amazing given that he spent about 4 hours with Charlie total.

But he also said that Charlie was "a special ed kid" and I wondered what that meant. Did Charlie have ADHD or have a learning disability? Why was he in special ed? Then I found it. He said in different interview that Charlie had "conduct disorder" as a child. He obviously got that from Wendi...

Conduct disorder is a clinical diagnosis after interviews with a patient, parents and teachers. Symptoms are in four basic categories: aggression towards people or animals, serious and repeated rule violations, deceitfulness or theft, destruction of property.

I think this probably explains the lowered expectations from Donna/Harvey for Charlie and him being "equal parts black sheep and momma's boy".
 
  • #379
Would someone mind posting a link to the podcast/YouTube being discussed on the last few pages, so that I don’t have to remove all those posts? STS was pretty spicy tonight

This is why it’s important to include a source link each time. Some members may not have a clue who/what STS refers to. THANKS a ton!
 
  • #380
Would someone mind posting a link to the podcast/YouTube being discussed on the last few pages, so that I don’t have to remove all those posts? STS was pretty spicy tonight

This is why it’s important to include a source link each time. Some members may not have a clue who/what STS refers to. THANKS a ton!
Yes, for sure. Sorry about that. Here is the link to the Surviving the Survivor (STS) show we are all talking about:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
125
Guests online
2,623
Total visitors
2,748

Forum statistics

Threads
632,544
Messages
18,628,277
Members
243,194
Latest member
andrea.ball
Back
Top