GUILTY FL - FSU Law Professor Dan Markel Murdered by Hitmen #19

[Missyrocks5]

Yes, I had thought that also, but he would have to actually work on her computer to do what would be needed to do to permanently delete files, right?

Well i think, and I mean, we are all just speculating here, that she could ask questions that seem to be random, or make up a story that she was getting information for something at work to pick his brain. She could get the info from him and then she could find a private way to implement what he told her.

I don't think she would ever in 1 million years let him look at her computer or anything because of how incriminating potentially it could be. I don't think she would ask him to do anything. She could just find out, for example, about software out there that can do this, and then, privately on her own, go and have someone else do it, or figure out how to do it on her own. I don't think he would do anything or know anything. She's too clever and manipulative to let him be aware of anything. JMO

 

[Knitpicker]

Well i think, and I mean, we are all just speculating here, that she could ask questions that seem to be random, or make up a story that she was getting information for something at work to pick his brain. She could get the info from him and then she could find a private way to implement what he told her.

I don't think she would ever in 1 million years let him look at her computer or anything because of how incriminating potentially it could be. I don't think she would ask him to do anything. She could just find out, for example, about software out there that can do this, and then, privately on her own, go and have someone else do it, or figure out how to do it on her own. I don't think he would do anything or know anything. She's too clever and manipulative to let him be aware of anything. JMO

Maybe . Who knows. I hope it’s not the case though. She did say on the stand that she didn’t respond to one of her mother’s emails. So she probably didn’t respond to any of them.
I was thinking that Dan called her Momma Bear bc she was probably “smarter than the average bear”. You’d have to be older to understand that phrase.

 

[Weki]

I’m not sure that CA would send Wendi to do a drive by to make sure it was done before he paid Katie. That seems unlikely to me. I think that was all Wendi being impulsive and erratic the way Lacasse described her. He nailed her in his interview and after listening to that everything she did that day makes perfect sense to me. This is a woman who lacks self-control. Certainly, Charlie didn’t want her to tell LE he may have done it and about his “stupid” joke. But she did it! JMO

Edited to add: @Blue Shakehead your comparison to the Denise Williams case is quite interesting. I haven’t read the docs you linked but I am familiar with that case. I have been doubtful all along that Wendi could be charged as a principal. How in the heck Williams conviction as a principal was overturned is beyond me! That’s crazy to me.

But now I’m wondering about Donna being overturned on the 1st count if convicted. The evidence that she paid is what ties her to the murder as a principal. But the payment evidence on her is after the fact! Could she be only guilty of conspiracy and not the 1st count? Maybe I’m overthinking it.

 

[apeXperience]

There is no chance Donna would plead any partial guilt given 1. Charlie’s absurd defense of “self hiring hit men” and appeal, and 2. Wendi’s exposure. Besides the Probable Cause of Sigfredo, Katie and Charlie, the State must have something new against Donna. Else, Donna should have been picked up along Katie and Charlie.

On behalf of Donna, Marissel Descalzo should:
1. Waive the reading of information and indictment - Florida RCP 3.160(a)
2. Write a Not Guilty Plea - Florida RCP 3.170
3. Participated in Discovery Process - Florida RCP 3.220, and
4. Request cancellation of the arraignment of 12/12/2023.

That way, the State has to disclose what they have at the earliest. And the Defense could start building their story.

 

[Knitpicker]

My own impression is that Tim Jansen is a career lawyer but not a true crime hobbyist and has not spent the 500 or so hours watching and re-watching all the previous trials or dissecting Wendi's interviews, the wiretaps and the podcasts. His knowledge comes, not from his own deep dive analysis and conviction about each player's actions, the evidence against them and their guilt and innocence but rather from the periphery - being a local and a member of the Tally legal community with very real contacts inside TPD, the SAO and FBI. He is friends with Pat Sanford, Craig Isom, Judge Wheeler and probably 20 or 30 other LE people working the case.

He's providing free color commentary and relies on his own experience and provides some insider information. He was the first to say that Katie's proffer was an absolute gong show and provided zero evidence or corroboration. I was so shocked when he said that, that I was SURE he was on the take. How could that even be possible? She was quarterbacking both murder trips, renting cars, paying the killers, managing SG and CA during the murder and the bump. Impossible! But lo and behold, her proffers may go down as the worst and least believable interviews ever conducted by LE. Its mind-boggling how bad they were and Jansen obviously knew that.

The State ended up using Katie at trial, which is now being used as proof that Jansen was "wrong" all along. But Jansen himself - after he heard the Defense opening statement said that she may have to testify given their insane strategy - and Jansen said that a couple days before she testified.

Tim does get tripped up on some details, for sure. And like most people reporting a news story when they have sources and "news" like Donna's arrest - he definitely wants to be "first" to report it. His coverage on this case has him appearing regularly on Court TV and now Good Morning America. This is a big deal for him (which is probably a good argument for why Tim absolutely should go back and do a deep dive and make a complete assessement of all the evidence and each person's invovlement/credibility/legal exposure. Thats my biggest issue with Tim).

I suspect his deference to Wendi's use and derivative-use immunity is because it was such a big deal in the Brian Winchester case. Winchester's derivative use immunity was the reason he could never be prosecuted. Obviously, this case is completely different but he believes that every bit of her testimony is immunized and the defense could raise Kastigar issues on anything she was asked about.

I don't agree with Tim at all on the derivative-use immunity. He has backed off this a bit. I think the biggest challenges to prosecuting Wendi are:

1. Her 6 hour police interview, where she is rambling off her own family. I know she is a pathological liar and a sociopath and that the entire thing is a performance, but have to admit she is a good actress and could very easily come across as believable to 1 or 2 or even 12 jurors the first time they watch it.

2. She is not involved in the bump. No on wires, not meeting in secret. This is the most damaging evidence against Charlie and Donna and she is not involved.

The prosecution is going to need to be able to completely demolish both of these issues for a jury to convict her beyond a reasonable doubt.

All this discussion of Tim on social media is landing him opportunities bc his name keeps coming up. This is just furthering his social media presence and furthering his national exposure beyond the small community following the Markel case. His tension with Carl is also helping Carl.

 

[Knitpicker]

There is no chance Donna would plead any partial guilt given 1. Charlie’s absurd defense of “self hiring hit men” and appeal, and 2. Wendi’s exposure. Besides the Probable Cause of Sigfredo, Katie and Charlie, the State must have something new against Donna. Else, Donna should have been picked up along Katie and Charlie.

On behalf of Donna, Marissel Descalzo should:
1. Waive the reading of information and indictment - Florida RCP 3.160(a)
2. Write a Not Guilty Plea - Florida RCP 3.170
3. Participated in Discovery Process - Florida RCP 3.220, and
4. Request cancellation of the arraignment of 12/12/2023.

That way, the State has to disclose what they have at the earliest. And the Defense could start building their story.

what exactly happened in 2016? Leo wanted them arrested. I know Meggs prevented it but what were the details if you know?

 

[Knitpicker]

I’m not sure that CA would send Wendi to do a drive by to make sure it was done before he paid Katie. That seems unlikely to me. I think that was all Wendi being impulsive and erratic the way Lacasse described her. He nailed her in his interview and after listening to that everything she did that day makes perfect sense to me. This is a woman who lacks self-control. Certainly, Charlie didn’t want her to tell LE he may have done it and about his “stupid” joke. But she did it! JMO

Edited to add: @Blue Shakehead your comparison to the Denise Williams case is quite interesting. I haven’t read the docs you linked but I am familiar with that case. I have been doubtful all along that Wendi could be charged as a principal. How in the heck Williams conviction as a principal was overturned is beyond me! That’s crazy to me.

But now I’m wondering about Donna being overturned on the 1st count if convicted. The evidence that she paid is what ties her to the murder as a principal. But the payment evidence on her is after the fact! Could she be only guilty of conspiracy and not the 1st count? Maybe I’m overthinking it.

Yes W seemed like she lived by seeing what she would get away with. Cheating on jeffrey, getting her friends to think she was a shrinking violet and victim, when she chooses people like Tova who will be drawn into her web of deceit. Rmember, on her podcast (where she gets a few digs in on her mother) she talks about her mothers greatest accomplishment (not in those exact words) was her staying a virgin in HS . Who would announce that on a podcast unless they had complete disdain for their mother? Imo, Wendi greatly resented her mother and her brother, and she may be devoid of any emotions for them, and used them for her purposes, like she has almost every one else.
She may have deep rooted resentment for Donna. After all, she chose Dan for her. People don't realize that Dans parents are affluent. And I am sure Donna knew that. And of course Jewish. And Harvard grad.However, Dan did not land the kind of position that would give Wendi the financial status her parents had. And having Wendi 7 hours away wasnt something Donna was happy about.
Theres lot of psychology at play here and lots of “stuff” with Wendi and Donna that goes way back,

 

[Gypsy Road]

JMO but I think Wendi driving to Trescott was another one of Wendi’s uncontrollable impulsive behaviors - much like blurting out in her police interview about Charlie joking about hiring a hitman to kill Dan, but buying a tv instead because it was cheaper. That’s always been my suspicion. I don’t think anyone directed her to do that drive by.

 

[Weki]

The only new evidence against Donna that came out during Charlie’s trial is that she dropped the money off the night of the murder. It’s clear in the texts and KM corroborates it. That’s HUGE in addition to the wire taps. State has Donna nailed at this point imo.

 

[Knitpicker]

JMO but I think Wendi driving to Trescott was another one of Wendi’s uncontrollable impulsive behaviors - much like blurting out in her police interview about Charlie joking about hiring a hitman to kill Dan. But buying a tv instead. That’s always been my suspicion. I don’t think anyone directed her to do that drive by.

If the Best Buy guy came closer to 12 (I think the window was 8-12), she probably would have never driven by.
He would have been there the same 45 minutes and by that time, she would not have had the lunch with the friends.
who knows if she would have left her home around 1 and driven by, or drive all the way to ABC for the bourbon.

Does anyone know when Wendi planned that lunch?
There are calls and texts to the lunch friends, but that was after she left the house to before she arrived. There doesn’t seem to be texts to them that morning while she was home.
The texts right before lunch was from the 2 friends, was bc she was late (talking to her friend in England)
I also want to know if they interviewed that friend in England.
And the lunch friends. I would think the state has that but not pertinent to either D or C’s cases.
Hope all this info will be used by the state if and when it’s her turn.

PS I was just thinking that if the Best Buy guy came closer to 12, she would have had that conversation with Charlie BEFORE he got there so she would not have been able to use the excuse that she was talking to Charlie to discuss whether she should get the TV fixed (the guy already said it wasn’t fixable) or get a new one.
Her excuse for that 18 minute call to Charlie.

 

[jennyjenny]

On Steven Epstein - I have been extremely hard on him because of his interview with AsianLegalFocus where he opines that Wendi is not guilty and provides his rationale for that conclusion. As @amicuscurie has mentioned, that was a really unfortunate interview and likely cost him an incredible amount of momentum and book sales.

The really weird part is - Esptein does not take any position on Wendi's guilt or innocence in his book. And in fact, his book is excellent and should be required reading for anyone interested in this case. Lots of great material in there about all the cast of characters - Dan and Wendi in childhood, college, dating and marriage. Tuto, Tato, Katie - all the lawyers. Some great information and details on Charlie's arrest.

Re-listening to it now (I choose audio when available LOL). Great refresher!!

 

[Blue Shakehead]

I’m not sure that CA would send Wendi to do a drive by to make sure it was done before he paid Katie. That seems unlikely to me. I think that was all Wendi being impulsive and erratic the way Lacasse described her. He nailed her in his interview and after listening to that everything she did that day makes perfect sense to me. This is a woman who lacks self-control. Certainly, Charlie didn’t want her to tell LE he may have done it and about his “stupid” joke. But she did it! JMO

Edited to add: @Blue Shakehead your comparison to the Denise Williams case is quite interesting. I haven’t read the docs you linked but I am familiar with that case. I have been doubtful all along that Wendi could be charged as a principal. How in the heck Williams conviction as a principal was overturned is beyond me! That’s crazy to me.

But now I’m wondering about Donna being overturned on the 1st count if convicted. The evidence that she paid is what ties her to the murder as a principal. But the payment evidence on her is after the fact! Could she be only guilty of conspiracy and not the 1st count? Maybe I’m overthinking it.

Re: driving past the crime scene. Wendi was insulated from the bump, but she sure as hell isn't insulated from the day of the actual murder. She has TV appointments. She's talking to Charlie. She's arguing with Dan trying to pull her kids out of daycare early. Dan says no, HE is going to pull them out early cause he's gonna take them swimming. She's upset about this. It seems to me, she has a big job to do and I think that job is to keep the kids away from Dan and out of the line of fire so she's driving to the scene to see if he's been murdered yet or whether she still has to run interference to keep them away from Dan.

Of course, I could be wrong. Even if I am right, its STILL extremely impulsive and erratic for her to drive down Trescott - there has got to be more effective ways to keep your kids out of danger than driving across town to make sure your ex-husband has been murdered.

Re: Denise Williams. That case is extremely important and relevant to the Dan Markel murder. Both are the highest profile cases in Leon County since Ted Bundy was arrested. Its the exact same SAO that is prosecuting both cases so that office will have read and dissected every single word of that decision and its application to the conspirators in the Markel case. I also wondered if that decision might have impacts on the State's ability to charge Donna as a principal but trust that it does not given how cautious the SAO has been.

The differences between Donna and Denise is that Dan Markel was a murder-for-hire and there is direct evidence against Charlie and circumstantial evidence against Donna that they were the ones doing the planning, hiring and the paying. That makes them "an accessory before the murder" which is the test for determining whether they could be a principal to 1st degree murder, despite not being at the scene.

 

[Blue Shakehead]

Well i think, and I mean, we are all just speculating here, that she could ask questions that seem to be random, or make up a story that she was getting information for something at work to pick his brain. She could get the info from him and then she could find a private way to implement what he told her.

I don't think she would ever in 1 million years let him look at her computer or anything because of how incriminating potentially it could be. I don't think she would ask him to do anything. She could just find out, for example, about software out there that can do this, and then, privately on her own, go and have someone else do it, or figure out how to do it on her own. I don't think he would do anything or know anything. She's too clever and manipulative to let him be aware of anything. JMO

Completely agree. Wendi and her family have murdered Dan Markel and 4 days after the murder (and one day after she has hung up on Isom and lawyered-up, packed her and moved to Miami forever), she is frantically replacing her physical phone cause she's afraid LE might have bugged it.
Now she meets Dave, who just happens to be a world renowned expert on cyber security. She is highly manipulative and smart. You don't think she was fishing some information out of him about how to protect her computer/phones/Icloud from "hackers" (i.e., LE), under the guise of pretending to give a rats about Dave's career? She absolutely did because anyone in her shoes would have done the same thing.

 

[amicuscurie]

Some think Wendi was already cultivating the relationship with Dave when she visited Miami. Jeffrey mentions that he suspected that there was someone in Miami W was seeing, the last 2 weeks she was there. He mentioned that on the stand or in his interviews

I recall hearing that she met him when she signed the kids up for school after she moved to Miami. This would’ve been almost a year after the murder.

 

[amicuscurie]

Well i think, and I mean, we are all just speculating here, that she could ask questions that seem to be random, or make up a story that she was getting information for something at work to pick his brain. She could get the info from him and then she could find a private way to implement what he told her.

I don't think she would ever in 1 million years let him look at her computer or anything because of how incriminating potentially it could be. I don't think she would ask him to do anything. She could just find out, for example, about software out there that can do this, and then, privately on her own, go and have someone else do it, or figure out how to do it on her own. I don't think he would do anything or know anything. She's too clever and manipulative to let him be aware of anything. JMO

I’m amazed she volunteered her computer at the police station. That’s how they found Donna’s emails, which led them to a theory of the case.

 

[amicuscurie]

JMO but I think Wendi driving to Trescott was another one of Wendi’s uncontrollable impulsive behaviors - much like blurting out in her police interview about Charlie joking about hiring a hitman to kill Dan, but buying a tv instead because it was cheaper. That’s always been my suspicion. I don’t think anyone directed her to do that drive by.

I don’t think her telling people the hitman joke was impulsive at all. Most people would think that she wouldn’t be dumb enough to say this if she actually knew that Charlie had hired a hitman. So, if she had knowledge of the crime, this might be a way to make people think she didn’t. So, just more of her reverse psychology IMO. It also throws suspicion on Charlie. People assume she wouldn’t want to incriminate her own brother, but why assume that? I’ve read that people think she only told the police because she had already told the TV repair and and LaCasse. But why tell those people?

 

[amicuscurie]

If the Best Buy guy came closer to 12 (I think the window was 8-12), she probably would have never driven by.
He would have been there the same 45 minutes and by that time, she would not have had the lunch with the friends.
who knows if she would have left her home around 1 and driven by, or drive all the way to ABC for the bourbon.

Does anyone know when Wendi planned that lunch?
There are calls and texts to the lunch friends, but that was after she left the house to before she arrived. There doesn’t seem to be texts to them that morning while she was home.
The texts right before lunch was from the 2 friends, was bc she was late (talking to her friend in England)
I also want to know if they interviewed that friend in England.
And the lunch friends. I would think the state has that but not pertinent to either D or C’s cases.
Hope all this info will be used by the state if and when it’s her turn.

PS I was just thinking that if the Best Buy guy came closer to 12, she would have had that conversation with Charlie BEFORE he got there so she would not have been able to use the excuse that she was talking to Charlie to discuss whether she should get the TV fixed (the guy already said it wasn’t fixable) or get a new one.
Her excuse for that 18 minute call to Charlie.

She appears, from her phone records, to have begun contacting her lunch companions around 11 or 11:30. Definitely last minute. Doesn’t mean the lunch wasn’t planned in advance, but it is consistent with making plans at the last minute, perhaps to have a reason to be leaving the house.

 

[Cedars]

LE didn't get the phones of C & D until after their arrests, 2022-2023. That leaves all that time in between 2014-2022 to do whatever.

Who among us has kept - much less still using - the phone we had in 2014?

 

[Hiller]

JMO but I think Wendi driving to Trescott was another one of Wendi’s uncontrollable impulsive behaviors - much like blurting out in her police interview about Charlie joking about hiring a hitman to kill Dan, but buying a tv instead because it was cheaper. That’s always been my suspicion. I don’t think anyone directed her to do that drive by.

No way either were impulsive. WA is not uncontrolled nor impulsive. Quite the opposite: conniving, calculated, and calm. IMO, obviously.

 

[Missyrocks5]

Completely agree. Wendi and her family have murdered Dan Markel and 4 days after the murder (and one day after she has hung up on Isom and lawyered-up, packed her *advertiser censored* and moved to Miami forever), she is frantically replacing her physical phone cause she's afraid LE might have bugged it.
Now she meets Dave, who just happens to be a world renowned expert on cyber security. She is highly manipulative and smart. You don't think she was fishing some information out of him about how to protect her computer/phones/Icloud from "hackers" (i.e., LE), under the guise of pretending to give a rats *advertiser censored* about Dave's career? She absolutely did because anyone in her shoes would have done the same thing.

Well said. Even more surreal is to hear Ca & DA in a wiretap talking about how fantastic Dave is, how she can’t pass up a chance to make it work with him, and how she doesn’t see it. I believe that he is of the same Indian descent as Rob‘s wife. Like so much in this case, you really can’t make this up.