GUILTY FL - Jordan Davis, 17, shot to death, Satellite Beach, 23 Nov 2012 #1

[songline]

Maybe this one can turn :censored: into shineola.

:floorlaugh: SWEET DAN you got sensored. LOL
But I love that expression

There is no proof that the kids threatened him with anything. Changing his story to police would be a good sign that he's fabricated at least part of his testimony.
NO PROOF AT ALL = FABRICATION


If Florida's stand your ground law allows people to kill because someone says "I'm going to kill you." That's an infringement on free speech. IMO, they'd have to at least show some actual intent to follow up on the threat. They'd need to move towards you or start to brandish an actual weapon. If the law in Florida allows you to kill based on words it is greatly flawed and needs to be taken to the SCOTUS for clarification. I don't think that's how the law works, and I think it's the reason for the mystical shotgun.

BTW, in your fight if you had landed a punch that killed the guy, it would seem, that according to you, you're friends could all have been arrested too.

JMO

BBM- Gee Dan I best not go to Florida, and I was thinking to retire there :waitasec: I have said those words myself, I'd be hung/shot in Fla. :floorlaugh:

 

[Karmady]

BBM

:floorlaugh:

These weren't fourteen year olds. They didn't have a gun, that anyone not facing charges, saw.

Well, that was my point. These "kids" were much older and I have no reason to think they were afraid.

We don't know his prior history. He might be a hothead. All we know at this time is that the guy shot nine(?) times into an SUV on kids playing loud music.

I'm not sure that's all we know, but if that is all that's known it's not believable to me without knowing more.

First, KC's council says her dad molested her and disposed of the body. Lawyers are going to say anything to get their clients off.

I don't know the first thing about that case and don't care. I also don't care what the lawyers say or what the media says. The media will say anything just as much as the lawyers will.

Second, that's the problem. The law in Florida gives the average bonehead the chance to decide if they are in danger or not. The fact that this guy is being held in jail with no bond makes me think they have a very strong case. When the sunshine law evidence starts to come out we'll know a lot more.

I agree that we'll know more when the evidence starts to come out. The gun law allows all people to defend themselves, including innocent "non-boneheads" who are threatened by people who actually mean them grievous harm, not just boneheads. If it turns out that a bonehead unjustifiably killed someone, chances are they'll be convicted.

Frantically backing up the SUV isn't trying to get away? I'm not afraid of blasting loud music in public either. I'm not afraid of that because in 48 years on this planet I've been asked nicely to turn it down, if it ever came up. When it did it was usually my dad asking me turn it down in my room.

Who has them "frantically" backing up the SUV and was it before or after the shots were fired?

From your post it seems that you believe that blasting loud music in public is against the law. Blasting loud music on private or public property can be a ticketable offense, and maybe once in awhile an arrestable misdemeanor. However, in order to get arrested, in most areas, you have to have ignored a police officers request to do so.

Nope. You didn't get that from my post. I think blasting loud music in public is rude. I think refusing to turn it down when asked, if that's what happened, is obnoxious and anti-social. But I don't know what actually happened and neither does anyone on this board...yet. It could be that the shooter is as unjustifiably guilty as sin, or not.

 

[Steely Dan]

BBM

:floorlaugh:




Well, that was my point. These "kids" were much older and I have no reason to think they were afraid.

I'm 48 and if someone started shooting at me I'd be afraid.



I'm not sure that's all we know, but if that is all that's known it's not believable to me without knowing more

It's not believable to me that an innocent man would flee the scene and not contact police.



I don't know the first thing about that case and don't care. I also don't care what the lawyers say or what the media says. The media will say anything just as much as the lawyers will.

The media has no dog in the fight. The defense attorney does.



I agree that we'll know more when the evidence starts to come out. The gun law allows all people to defend themselves, including innocent "non-boneheads" who are threatened by people who actually mean them grievous harm, not just boneheads. If it turns out that a bonehead unjustifiably killed someone, chances are they'll be convicted.

Is it ok to let boneheads have a right to kill someone if they choose and then make up a story to go with it? Or is it better to leave life and death decision making to schooled and trained professionals?





Who has them "frantically" backing up the SUV and was it before or after the shots were fired?

Ron Davis said his son didn't own any guns, wasn't part of a gang and was a good kid. When Dunn pulled out the gun, the teens' initially thought it was a fake then frantically tried to back up the car before being caught in the gunfire, Ron Davis said.

Here's the link; http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/...ference-between-Michael-Dunn-George-Zimmerman




Nope. You didn't get that from my post. I think blasting loud music in public is rude. I think refusing to turn it down when asked, if that's what happened, is obnoxious and anti-social. But I don't know what actually happened and neither does anyone on this board...yet. It could be that the shooter is as unjustifiably guilty as sin, or not.

The guy is being held in jail without bond. I don't think he would be in jail without an ability to get out if the cops bought his SYG defense. They obviously believe he's a danger to society, or they'd let him out on bail. JMO

My answers in red.

 

[Donjeta]

I wonder if being a flight risk enters into the no bond thing. He already fleed once.

 

[Steely Dan]

It seems to me that there are two stories being put forward here.

One is that the teens were playing music too loud. Mr. Dunn said something to them about turning down their music. The kids brandished a shotgun (which was never found nor any evidence of one was found.) and the kids must have had it because Mr. Dunn says so. It's also very common that kids today carry shotguns all the time and use them to threaten people who complain to them about loud music. Mr. Dunn ran back to his hotel room and didn't call the police because he was afraid. He then cancelled plans with his son the next day after finding out a kid had died in the shooting and went home because he was afraid of the kids. He was going to turn himself into a neighbor, but the cops tracked him down before he could. He was merely behaving the way any innocent man would in the same situation. The police are crucifying him for merely trying to protect himself.

The other story is that the kids were loudly booming music and Mr. Dunn said something to them. It escalated to the point where Mr. Dunn became enraged and pulled out his gun (The kids didn't have a gun, which is backed up by the police.) and started unloading on the kids. He then fled to his hotel knowing full well what he had done and laid low for the night. The next morning he found out one of the kids had died and cancelled plans with his son because he knew he was guilty of murder. He didn't know the cops had his license plate number and didn't turn himself in because he thought nobody would know it was him.

I believe the second story myself. Based on the evidence we know of so far, it makes the most sense.

 

[Steely Dan]

I wonder if being a flight risk enters into the no bond thing. He already fleed once.

Twice. Once from the scene to the hotel and once from the hotel to his home.

If the police believed he was most likely innocent and was just standing his ground they'd probably release him after he surrendered his passport and was told not to leave the county without notifying the police. JMO

 

[Steely Dan]

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...o-shooting-teen-to-death-over-loud-music?lite

Florida man pleads not guilty to shooting teen to death over loud music

...Dunn and his girlfriend were in Jacksonville for his son's wedding when they pulled up in their car next to the teens. Police allege that while the girlfriend was in the store, Dunn told Jordan Russell Davis, 17, and his three friends to turn down their music.

"It was loud," Jacksonville homicide Lt. Rob Schoonover said of the teens' music. "They admitted that. That's not a reason for someone to open fire."

After an exchange of words, Dunn began shooting with a handgun, Schoonover said.

"Nobody else in that vehicle was struck; it was just our victim [Davis], which was lucky because the vehicle was shot eight or nine times," Schoonover said....

Well his girlfriend isn't being charged, as she should be, according to Florida law.

 

[Donjeta]

A Florida gun collector has pleaded not guilty to a murder charge alleging that he opened fire on a car full of unarmed teenagers, killing one, in an altercation that police say stemmed from loud music.

Michael David Dunn, 45, acted "as any responsible firearms owner would have," his lawyer said of the Friday evening incident at a gas station outside a convenience store in Jacksonville, Fla.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...o-shooting-teen-to-death-over-loud-music?lite

Well I do hope there are not very many responsible gun owners if this is what they all do.

 

[angelmom]

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...o-shooting-teen-to-death-over-loud-music?lite

Oh, Lord! Speaking of Casey...whose lawyer does this sound like?

"Once all the facts come out, that what really happened is known, it will be very clear that Mr. Dunn acted responsibly and as any responsible firearms owner would have acted under these same circumstances," said his attorney, Robin Lemonidis

 

[Steely Dan]

Oh, Lord! Speaking of Casey...whose lawyer does this sound like?

Nice catch.

 

[Nova]

Yes. It is the defendant's decision. But a good lawyer, IMO, would persuade him against such foolishness. IMO, Dunn taking the stand would be a disaster. He has already shown that he can't keep his story straight. Any halfway decent prosecutor would make mincemeat out of him. JMHO and all that.

Your opinion and mine, too, gxm. I didn't mean to suggest otherwise. I absolutely agree.

 

[Nova]

Twice. Once from the scene to the hotel and once from the hotel to his home.

If the police believed he was most likely innocent and was just standing his ground they'd probably release him after he surrendered his passport and was told not to leave the county without notifying the police. JMO

Actually, they'd HAVE to release him if they believed his story. LE wouldn't have probable cause for an arrest.

 

[Nova]

...Well his girlfriend isn't being charged, as she should be, according to Florida law.

Why? She wasn't even present, according to the police account of the case. The police spokesman quotes Dunn as saying the wife returned to the parking lot AFTER the shooting and quotes him in a way that makes it seem the police believe him on that score.

Now if the girlfriend and Dunn had entered into a conspiracy to rob the store, that would make her guilty of what is called "felony murder". But I've heard no hint that they were engaged in a criminal enterprise together.

 

[Steely Dan]

Why? She wasn't even present, according to the police account of the case. The police spokesman quotes Dunn as saying the wife returned to the parking lot AFTER the shooting and quotes him in a way that makes it seem the police believe him on that score.

Now if the girlfriend and Dunn had entered into a conspiracy to rob the store, that would make her guilty of what is called "felony murder". But I've heard no hint that they were engaged in a criminal enterprise together.

Sorry, I was being sarcastic and it didn't come across the way I wanted it to.

 

[Nova]

Sorry, I was being sarcastic and it didn't come across the way I wanted it to.

No, your sarcasm was probably right on target, as usual.

This thread grows so fast I end up skimming several pages and only reading the last couple. I'm sure I missed something.

 

[Donjeta]

Didn't mobeydick point out that aiding someone to escape detection and punishment knowing they have committed a crime is criminal?

 

[songline]

Why? She wasn't even present, according to the police account of the case. The police spokesman quotes Dunn as saying the wife returned to the parking lot AFTER the shooting and quotes him in a way that makes it seem the police believe him on that score.

Now if the girlfriend and Dunn had entered into a conspiracy to rob the store, that would make her guilty of what is called "felony murder". But I've heard no hint that they were engaged in a criminal enterprise together.

OK, but she did hear the shots, and she knew who did it, at least she knew he was running..... BUT she did not dial 911 and ran with him. She is not the wife she is the GF as it was reported. She should have not played into his hand.
When you lay down with dogs you can catch flees.

 

[JaxFlaGal]

Today, Dunn has been formally indicted by a grand jury now for first-degree murder of Jordan Davis and an additional 3 counts of attempted murder of the other 3 teens shot at.
http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/...against-michael-dunn-shooting-over-loud-music

http://www.news4jax.com/news/Dunn-i...harge/-/475880/17766090/-/obplkz/-/index.html

Link to the indictment: http://www.news4jax.com/blob/view/-...u4kcz/-/Document--Michael-Dunn-indictment.pdf

Dunn's arraignment date has been moved up to Dec 17th from Dec 19th: http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/...Jordan-Davis-shooting-death-faces-new-charges

And today the Florida Supremen Court ruled that a state statute setting restrictions on loud music is "invalid". http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/...upreme-Court-rules-loud-music-statute-invalid

 

[Nova]

Didn't mobeydick point out that aiding someone to escape detection and punishment knowing they have committed a crime is criminal?

I certainly could be wrong, but I'm not sure the "aiding and abetting" statutes are regularly enforced with spouses and family members who have no other criminal record. I'm sure such laws are used as leverage, but I doubt we have enough prison cells to lock up every friend and relative of everyone who goes on the lam.

(My uncle was arrested when his brother (my father) disappeared to avoid felony charges; but after the Orlando cops were satisfied that Uncle Butch didn't know where my father had gone, they made some sort of deal for minimal punishment.)

In this case, the SYGL would further complicate matters. A judge or jury would have to prove that the wife didn't believe her husband's account of the crime and therefore was actually aiding someone she believed to be a murderer.

ETA "the wife" is actually the girlfriend, as songline corrects me above. Thanks, song. I knew better.

 

[Nova]

OK, but she did hear the shots, and she knew who did it, at least she knew he was running..... BUT she did not dial 911 and ran with him. She is not the wife she is the GF as it was reported. She should have not played into his hand.
When you lay down with dogs you can catch flees.

As I posted above, of course you are right that she is the gf, not the wife.

If she hid him for 20 months, that might be one thing. But getting a jury to overlook their natural sympathy for a wife in an impossible situation probably makes this case not worth the expense of a trial. Dunn is claiming he always intended to turn himself in; his gf's defense is (a) Dunn acted in self-defense and she believed no crime was committed; and (b) she believed that he was preparing to turn himself in to LE.

To my knowledge, the USA has no "duty to call 911" law.

I may be proven wrong, but Jacksonville LE would have a hard time getting ME to convict on those facts.