GUILTY FL - Jordan Davis, 17, shot to death, Satellite Beach, 23 Nov 2012 #1

[flourish]

Are you serious? Do you know how often mobs of "teens" attack lone "non-teen" individuals these days? It is a RAMPANT problem in many cities.

There is NO DOUBT groups of teens attack lone individuals FAR FAR more often than the other way around!


Here is a site devoted to chronicalling the incidents. Most of these incidents do NOT make the national news.

http://violentflashmobs.com/

I'm as serious as emptying a clip into a car full of people.

I don't recall ever comparing how often the two types of incidents occur, just stating that one cannot state with accuracy that individuals never bully groups.

Of course groups of people attack individuals more often, but that wasn't my point--my point was that all this always/never, black/white (not race but black and white thinking) is absurd--it's rare that anything can accurately be stated as ALWAYS being what happens.

 

[scapa]

Both side of this case may have reasons to lie. The shooter, that we know of, has never shown a personallity trait that would make a reasonable person believe him cold blooded killer. Shots were sent down range for a reason, do you know that reason, It sure as hell wasn't loud music!

From the reported details I can't see that we have any knowledge one way or another concerning the shooter's personality traits, aggressive or otherwise, certainly nothing obviously exculpatory. Even a casual trawl of WS reveals all sorts of cases in which apparently non-criminal agents commit serious crimes. Lack of a criminal record, or possession of a minor one, doesn't to my mind settle the question.

One more thing -- as a long-time visitor though infrequent poster, I am surprised how often I now find myself reading posts by members who seem to be fine about the use of deadly force even in less than straightforward circumstances (thinking also of remarks on another thread that two teenagers murdered rather bizarrely in MN might more expeditiously have been dumped in a river as a means of generating less fuss). Is life that cheap? I always thought of WS as a place where good sense generally ruled and where righteous indignation arose precisely because lives were valued so profoundly. Maybe I just need to avoid this sort of case, or place, entirely. I can't imagine teaching my young young kids that taking deadly aim was anything more than an absolute last resort, one with enormous and long-lasting consequences, and not some right of the merely aggrieved.

s

 

[flourish]

From the reported details I can't see that we have any knowledge one way or another concerning the shooter's personality traits, aggressive or otherwise, certainly nothing obviously exculpatory. Even a casual trawl of WS reveals all sorts of cases in which apparently non-criminal agents commit serious crimes. Lack of a criminal record, or possession of a minor one, doesn't to my mind settle the question.

One more thing -- as a long-time visitor though infrequent poster, I am surprised how often I now find myself reading posts by members who seem to be fine about the use of deadly force even in less than straightforward circumstances (thinking also of remarks on another thread that two teenagers murdered rather bizarrely in MN might more expeditiously have been dumped in a river as a means of generating less fuss). Is life that cheap? I always thought of WS as a place where good sense generally ruled and where righteous indignation arose precisely because lives were valued so profoundly. Maybe I just need to avoid this sort of case, or place, entirely. I can't imagine teaching my young young kids that taking deadly aim was anything more than an absolute last resort, one with enormous and long-lasting consequences, and not some right of the merely aggrieved.

s

Scapa, it's nice to have lurkers post more Please consider sticking around--you made an excellent point in your post, and I'd love to hear more from you.

It took me a LONG time to feel comfortable enough to post instead of just lurk and click the "thanks" button

 

[flourish]

Hmmm...found an interesting nugget in this article:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2012/12/03/stand-your-ground-dewayne-wickham/1740795/

After the shooting, Dunn waited for his girlfriend, who was inside the store when the gunfire erupted, to return to his car before driving off.

Hmm, so he felt he was in such danger that it was necessary to empty his clip into an occupied car with bystanders and highly flammable gas pumps nearby, but then wasn't worried enough about getting shot by the alleged shotgun but instead felt it was safe enough to wait for his girlfriend to return to the car?

REALLY?

And he claims he didn't realize anyone was shot. So, it's not like he knew he'd killed everyone in the car and therefore they weren't going to be able to pull out said alleged shotgun and shoot him. That seems awfully odd--if I thought I was about to be shot at and so I emptied my clip at a target, I don't think I'd be waiting around to see if my victims are going to return fire. Hinky to the nth degree, IMO.

Also, and I know we've already discussed this (and come to think of it, probably what I talked about above, too), but this guy was a frequent visitor to the gun range. Did all his paper targets come back minus bullet holes? How could he reasonable think he didn't hit anyone when he aimed into the car and shot away?!?!?!?!? Is he that bad of a shot, despite his gun collecting and range shooting? Highly unlikely, in my opinion. Seems like he knew he'd just opened himself up for a world of legal hurt, and thought he'd just leave and hope no one bothered to get a description and license number of his car?

 

[ScubaTwinn]

Coward and Bully at the same time?! <modsnip>!

That because you are bias toward him and cannot fathom the teens being teens. You clearly think they were somehow being mature blasting loud music!

I consider myself to be a mature 52 year old woman. And I love my rock music loud. I'm not talking about old school rock - I'm talking about heavy metal rock and it's new. Head banging if you want to call it that. And I blast that music as loud as my custom speakers will handle when I want, where I want. I've known plenty of teens that were cowards and bullies at the same time because I was on the receiving end of it. Teens ARE teens and they play their music loud. This guy went off for a totally different reason and I believe he is in the wrong or he would have stayed to talk to the cops. Why didn't he stay? Why didn't he report it in the morning when he found out someone had been killed? I would love to know what his answers are to those questions and still try to blame the victim.

 

[daisy7]

I consider myself to be a mature 52 year old woman. And I love my rock music loud. I'm not talking about old school rock - I'm talking about heavy metal rock and it's new. Head banging if you want to call it that. And I blast that music as loud as my custom speakers will handle when I want, where I want. I've known plenty of teens that were cowards and bullies at the same time because I was on the receiving end of it. Teens ARE teens and they play their music loud. This guy went off for a totally different reason and I believe he is in the wrong or he would have stayed to talk to the cops. Why didn't he stay? Why didn't he report it in the morning when he found out someone had been killed? I would love to know what his answers are to those questions and still try to blame the victim.

And, why didn't he tell LE that he thought they had a gun when they first interviewed him?

 

[flourish]

And, why didn't he tell LE that he thought they had a gun when they first interviewed him?

Totally! Also, why, if he really did see a shotgun, did he not notify LE of this "dangerous, armed" group of teens? If they really had a shotgun, did Mr. Dunn just not care enough about the safety of other citizens to notify LE of this alleged danger?

 

[Steely Dan]

No Criminal record over 45 years, pilot that owns airplane, I think you currently have to have a background check for that.

Never heard the name before last week and don't care if he is found guilty or not. I would like to know the truth, I doubt that is ever going to happen. I really wish there would have been audio/video of the shooting, something tells me there is, teenagers with cell phones record their altercations with old white folks! Do you think they may have destroyed that evidence?

He owns an airplane? I didn't know that. Maybe I'll have to rethink my position on this.

The second part of what I bolded is all I need to hear from you to know where you're coming from.

BTW, what is your job? You've been shot at 50 times on 50 trips into the bad part of the city! Why do you keep going back? If it wasn't for your job why would you go somewhere that you knew you'd be shot at for?

That does look like what she is doing. That being said it really doesn't matter if they actually had a shotgun. In Florida a Threat of death and the representation of something to carry out that threat would justify the use of deadly force to stop the threat.



I'm sure the defense is looking for people who were at the store before the shooter got there. If the teenagers harassed other people it would be game over for the prosecution!

There just isn't enough information to make a call at this point!

Here's a link to the full statute of Florida's law; http://www.husseinandwebber.com/florida-stand-your-ground-statute.html

I think this is pertinent;

776.041&#8195;Use of force by aggressor.—



The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:



(1)&#8195;Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or

(2)&#8195;Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

(a)&#8195;Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or

(b)&#8195;In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

History.—s. 13, ch. 74-383; s. 1190, ch. 97-102.


So we know that Dunn asked them to turn the music down. (I do not think that is provocation, but the kids did nothing before he asked them to turn it down and we don't know how he asked. Did he approach the door of the car or did he stay in his car? Did they say no and he could have let it go until his girlfriend came out and then just left?) We know that no gun was found. We know he waited for his girlfriend to come out of the store, while supposedly, there was a car full of alive teenagers with a mystery gun and they never fired back at him or Dunn's girlfriend before they left.

The kids stayed at the scene and waited for an ambulance and the cops, and all gave statements to the police. Mr. Dunn did not. He didn't contact police after getting to his hotel room, he left for home the next day and never contacted police. He was picked up on a warrant that was made only because somebody got his license plate number.

I was a teenager, Maybe you were also, I was most likely the most honest one I knew. Almost all the rest couldn't be trusted with telling the truth, biggest bunch of liars ever. So no I don't think things have changed in that earthly relationship!

I called my parents and they told me I was a teen, but they lied to me about Santa Claus so maybe they're lying again.

Anyway, after hanging up a flood of memories from being a teen came back to me. You are the only person I've heard say that they've never lied to their parents. If you really never lied to your parents then you are quite admirable.

However, as I stated everyone I knew as a teen, then and since has lied to their parents at one time or another. Some have shoplifted, a few were bullies, but not many at all, and some did drugs and denied it to their parents.

None of these kids grew up to be gangsters, rapists, bank robbers, murderers, or committed any other felonies I know about. I've lived in this city for over thirty five years and have never read a news article about any of them being tried for something felonious.

 

[Steely Dan]

And, why didn't he tell LE that he thought they had a gun when they first interviewed him?

I had heard that too, but I don't like to post stuff like that without a link because people will say they never heard that before and will ask for a link so here are some;

This link is a timeline for the case so far; http://www.firstcoastnews.com/video/1995717082001/1/Timeline-of-Michael-Dunn---Jordan-Davis-case

On Monday November 26th his lawyer says that he felt threatened and never mentions a gun. After he's extradited to the Duval County jail and after the police report that no gun was found his attorney brings up the gun for the first time.

If anyone can find more I'd appreciate it.

 

[LolaMoon08]

That does look like what she is doing. That being said it really doesn't matter if they actually had a shotgun. In Florida a Threat of death and the representation of something to carry out that threat would justify the use of deadly force to stop the threat.



I'm sure the defense is looking for people who were at the store before the shooter got there. If the teenagers harassed other people it would be game over for the prosecution!

There just isn't enough information to make a call at this point!

I wonder how much money Mr. Dunn would offer a witness in order to testify to THAT? Also, don't you think the gas station manager/attendant would have called police if other customers were being harrassed? Or these harrassed customers would have called police?

I've got to give you credit. Your reaching abilities are quite impressive.

 

[Karmady]

I consider myself to be a mature 52 year old woman . . . And I blast that music as loud as my custom speakers will handle when I want, where I want.

RSBM~

Regardless of whether it's distracting/annoying/obnoxious to others? Not really asking in connection with whether it justifies an altercation, but if someone was blasting head banger music top volume say, driving down my street at night, I would think that was extremely rude and thoughtless.

Not trying to personalize the convo, but since you put it out there....

 

[Davita]

lol !!!

 

[Donjeta]

I was a teenager, Maybe you were also, I was most likely the most honest one I knew. Almost all the rest couldn't be trusted with telling the truth, biggest bunch of liars ever. So no I don't think things have changed in that earthly relationship!

So, all the teenagers are dishonest (except you, of course) but once that bunch of liars grow up to be 45 year old guys with a gun, their word is always to be trusted?

 

[Steely Dan]

So, all the teenagers are dishonest (except you, of course) but once that bunch of liars grow up to be 45 year old guys with a gun, their word is always to be trusted?

:laughcry:

 

[mobeydick]

From the reported details I can't see that we have any knowledge one way or another concerning the shooter's personality traits, aggressive or otherwise, certainly nothing obviously exculpatory. Even a casual trawl of WS reveals all sorts of cases in which apparently non-criminal agents commit serious crimes. Lack of a criminal record, or possession of a minor one, doesn't to my mind settle the question.

One more thing -- as a long-time visitor though infrequent poster, I am surprised how often I now find myself reading posts by members who seem to be fine about the use of deadly force even in less than straightforward circumstances (thinking also of remarks on another thread that two teenagers murdered rather bizarrely in MN might more expeditiously have been dumped in a river as a means of generating less fuss). Is life that cheap? I always thought of WS as a place where good sense generally ruled and where righteous indignation arose precisely because lives were valued so profoundly. Maybe I just need to avoid this sort of case, or place, entirely. I can't imagine teaching my young young kids that taking deadly aim was anything more than an absolute last resort, one with enormous and long-lasting consequences, and not some right of the merely aggrieved.

s

I take threats to my and my loved one lives very seriously. I find it a profound train of thought not too. You don't have to take threats to you life seriously, that's your choice in life or death. I find Nothing the attributed to the teen’s statements that makes any common sense. Something else other then loud music made the shooter feel the need to use deadly force.

 

[Donjeta]

I take threats to my and my loved one lives very seriously. I find it a profound train of thought not too. You don't have to take threats to you life seriously, that's your choice in life or death. I find Nothing the attributed to the teen&#8217;s statements that makes any common sense. Something else other then loud music made the shooter feel the need to use deadly force.

Do you realize you have just justified every single murder that ever has been committed?

"Oh, the murderer must have had a good reason to. Something made him feel like using deadly force."

Everybody who kills someone did it because something triggered the action. It doesn't mean that it was justified, legal or the right and reasonable thing to do.

So far, the evidence seems to indicate that Mr Dunn was a threat to someone's life. I've seen nothing yet that says Jordan Davis was.

 

[mobeydick]

He owns an airplane? I didn't know that. Maybe I'll have to rethink my position on this.

The second part of what I bolded is all I need to hear from you to know where you're coming from.

BTW, what is your job? You've been shot at 50 times on 50 trips into the bad part of the city! Why do you keep going back? If it wasn't for your job why would you go somewhere that you knew you'd be shot at for?



Here's a link to the full statute of Florida's law; http://www.husseinandwebber.com/florida-stand-your-ground-statute.html

I think this is pertinent;

776.041&#8195;Use of force by aggressor.&#8212;



The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:



(1)&#8195;Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or

(2)&#8195;Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

(a)&#8195;Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or

(b)&#8195;In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

History.&#8212;s. 13, ch. 74-383; s. 1190, ch. 97-102.


So we know that Dunn asked them to turn the music down. (I do not think that is provocation, but the kids did nothing before he asked them to turn it down and we don't know how he asked. Did he approach the door of the car or did he stay in his car? Did they say no and he could have let it go until his girlfriend came out and then just left?) We know that no gun was found. We know he waited for his girlfriend to come out of the store, while supposedly, there was a car full of alive teenagers with a mystery gun and they never fired back at him or Dunn's girlfriend before they left.

The kids stayed at the scene and waited for an ambulance and the cops, and all gave statements to the police. Mr. Dunn did not. He didn't contact police after getting to his hotel room, he left for home the next day and never contacted police. He was picked up on a warrant that was made only because somebody got his license plate number.




I called my parents and they told me I was a teen, but they lied to me about Santa Claus so maybe they're lying again.

Anyway, after hanging up a flood of memories from being a teen came back to me. You are the only person I've heard say that they've never lied to their parents. If you really never lied to your parents then you are quite admirable.

However, as I stated everyone I knew as a teen, then and since has lied to their parents at one time or another. Some have shoplifted, a few were bullies, but not many at all, and some did drugs and denied it to their parents.

None of these kids grew up to be gangsters, rapists, bank robbers, murderers, or committed any other felonies I know about. I've lived in this city for over thirty five years and have never read a news article about any of them being tried for something felonious.

<mod snip> I said I've been downtown Jacksonville/bad areas of 50 times. I didn&#8217;t lie to my parents/elders I had respect for them, if they asked I told them the truth. I had a brother that lied and I also seen the out come of that, I wanted no part of it. His punishment didn&#8217;t help him one bit but it dang sure helped me.

 

[mobeydick]

I wonder how much money Mr. Dunn would offer a witness in order to testify to THAT? Also, don't you think the gas station manager/attendant would have called police if other customers were being harrassed? Or these harrassed customers would have called police?

I've got to give you credit. Your reaching abilities are quite impressive.

Reaching is thinking the shooter opened fire over loud music. Reaching is thinking a single 45yo male started a fight with 4 male teenagers. Something else happened.

This site very existence is dedicated to thinking what may have happened. If we knew exactly what happened this would have been a one page thread.

 

[mobeydick]

I consider myself to be a mature 52 year old woman. And I love my rock music loud. I'm not talking about old school rock - I'm talking about heavy metal rock and it's new. Head banging if you want to call it that. And I blast that music as loud as my custom speakers will handle when I want, where I want. .

If you were in a parking lot and were asked to turn it down, what would you do?

 

[mobeydick]

So, all the teenagers are dishonest (except you, of course) but once that bunch of liars grow up to be 45 year old guys with a gun, their word is always to be trusted?

Not all but the three teens left clearly have a reason to lie. Most people mature with age, <mod snip>.