GUILTY FL - Jordan Davis, 17, shot to death, Satellite Beach, 23 Nov 2012 #1

[gxm]

To date the is no credible evidence the shooter shot the teenagers over loud music yet almost everyone who has posted on this thread has stated that is why they were shot at, in almost the same post they all claim they would never shoot someone over loud music! Stop and think about that!



Florida law is pretty clear, if you are participating in a crime and some gets killed you can be charged with murder. The teens have a very good reason to lie, so does the shooter. Like I stated many times in this thread I wish there was Audio and Video of the event! We might would know the truth then!

Are you really saying that because Dunn killed Jordan over loud music then the friends should be accessories since they were listening to the loud music that set Dunn off? No judge or jury is going to buy that angle. IMO, the best Dunn can hope for is a short-time manslaughter plea deal and I really don't think he's going to get it unless he's very well off and very well connected. IMO, as soon as he fled the scene, he sealed his fate: guilty of murder. He killed a young man with his whole life ahead of him over loud music, I can't imagine any judge or jury will find Dunn sympathetic. JMHO and all.

 

[Nova]

I doubt a (good) lawyer would ever let Dunn take the stand. IMO, that would be a disaster and would not help him in any way. Dunn left the crime scene and would need a very good explanation for running and hiding. The prosecutor would eat him alive. JMHO and all.

I suspect you are right (though in the end, it is the defendant's decision, not his lawyer's). I only meant to correct the statement that the defendant's statements (in court, but also outside of court) were not "evidence".

I don't know all the hearsay rules, but I suspect anything Dunn said immediately before, during and after the shooting will be admissible.

 

[Nova]

Are you really saying that because Dunn killed Jordan over loud music then the friends should be accessories since they were listening to the loud music that set Dunn off? No judge or jury is going to buy that angle. IMO, the best Dunn can hope for is a short-time manslaughter plea deal and I really don't think he's going to get it unless he's very well off and very well connected. IMO, as soon as he fled the scene, he sealed his fate: guilty of murder. He killed a young man with his whole life ahead of him over loud music, I can't imagine any judge or jury will find Dunn sympathetic. JMHO and all.

I still haven't found a source that says clearly whether Dunn emptied his clip into the side of the car (inadvertently piercing the body of the car and hitting Jordan) or whether he shot through the open passenger window.

If the former, I think he'll have a hard time arguing self-defense, but he might make a case for "warning shots" as manslaughter rather than murder.

If the latter, I think he'll have to stick with "self-defense", but shooting into a car full of teenagers is going to be a tough sell. I think anybody shooting wildly into a crowd trapped in a confined space would have the same problem.

 

[flourish]

Actually, the shooter's testimony IS evidence. It just may be tainted in the minds of others because the testimony is self-serving.

But a defendant has a right to testify just like everyone else.

You're right...I suppose I was thinking more along the lines of physical evidence, uninvolved witnesses' statements, video...you know, something observable, or more "backupable" as opposed to self-serving, unverifiable claims.

I'm sure it won't happen, but I'd sure love to see Mr. Dunn testify--that would be a cross-examination not to miss!!!

Btw, it's so nice to see you again, Nova! I always appreciate the valuable insight you provide, and how you told me that without being a <modsnip> about it.


:blowkiss:

 

[Karmady]

I'm guessing one of the kids mouthed off at him. What set you off to beat up a much younger man?

Loud music + "mouthing off" wouldn't do it either, typically. So either the shooter's a loose cannon or his life or someone else's was threatened. We have no idea at this point which is true. Personally, I have a hard time believing the loose cannon theory for a person in public likely on video with no prior history. It's possible, but unlikely.On the other hand, there are plenty stories of teens engaging in random acts of violence in public places over something stupid or over nothing at all. The age of the perps and why they did what they did is truly frightening and also far more consistent with youthful offenders who have no context for the consequences of what they do. The 14 year olds who killed over the cigarette in PA is what I'm thinking of here. Ridiculous behavior obviously done with no concern about the consequences -- yet done. And an innocent life is ended by "kids" YOUNG kids. 14 years old. Took out a gun and shot someone.

 

[fran]

There is no proof the shooter escalated the situation, NONE. There is evidence he responded to threats.

There is no evidence there was another weapon involved in this incident. JUST the shooter's weapon.

Up to that point, it was loud music and possibly words.

You don't take a gun to a word fight.

Words don't kill people, but people with guns do.

JMHO
fran

 

[Karmady]

There is no evidence there was another weapon involved in this incident. JUST the shooter's weapon.

Up to that point, it was loud music and possibly words.

You don't take a gun to a word fight.

Words don't kill people, but people with guns do.

JMHO
fran

According to the shooter's counsel, there was a threat of a gun or a gun.

Also, it's my understanding that the shooter carried his gun regardless of whether there was "a fight," so he didn't carry a gun to a word fight, he had the gun and the right to carry it whether or not there was a fight of any kind, or none at all. He could have carried his gun to a toddler's birthday party and still been well within his rights.

Disagreeing with the law is different than questioning what this individual did within his rights under existing law -- to carry a gun at all times if he chose to do so.

 

[fran]

IMHO, people can claim anything they want. But, ........ the problem here is the shooter did NOT claim the victims had a weapon when he was arrested and gave his initial statement. ............, that wasn't brought into the mix until he got an attorney, ....... additionally, there was no other weapon found at the scene.

I guess it will depend on if there's any witnesses to what transpired, either the verbal altercation or the actual shooting and the teens fleeing in fear for their life!

IF no witnesses to words or proof there was another weapon, the only thing sure is, ................ Mr. Dunn shot at least 7 or 8 rounds towards a vehicle full of teens and shot and killed one. Left the scene and the next day fled to his home hours away and LE had to contact him first.

I have no chance of being on the jury that could possibly determine Mr. Dun's fate, however, IF I was, I'd believe he shot for no reason other than he COULD and left hoping to get away with it.

That's just me though, and
JMHO
fran



PLEASE NOTE, this is my view and in no way represents Websleuths or the owners of Websleuths or administration of Websleuths. This is JMHO, that's all.

 

[Karmady]

IMHO, people can claim anything they want. But, ........ the problem here is the shooter did NOT claim the victims had a weapon when he was arrested and gave his initial statement. ............, that wasn't brought into the mix until he got an attorney, ....... additionally, there was no other weapon found at the scene.

I guess it will depend on if there's any witnesses to what transpired, either the verbal altercation or the actual shooting and the teens fleeing in fear for their life!

IF no witnesses to words or proof there was another weapon, the only thing sure is, ................ Mr. Dunn shot at least 7 or 8 rounds towards a vehicle full of teens and shot and killed one. Left the scene and the next day fled to his home hours away and LE had to contact him first.

I have no chance of being on the jury that could possibly determine Mr. Dun's fate, however, IF I was, I'd believe he shot for no reason other than he COULD and left hoping to get away with it.

That's just me though, and
JMHO
fran



PLEASE NOTE, this is my view and in no way represents Websleuths or the owners of Websleuths or administration of Websleuths. This is JMHO, that's all.

sbm~
and the teens fleeing in fear for their life!

this is a hyperbole, imo, complete with the exclamation point and, at minimum, a subjective statement based on no known evidence. Which is fine since, as I understand it, you're speaking as a poster and not a moderator. That said, there's no evidence that I'm aware of that there was any fear on the part of the people in the vehicle that was shot at or that they left the scene because of any fear. They obviously weren't afraid of loudly blasting music in a public place and we'll see whether they were afraid of a verbal or physical confrontation, including deadly force. Maybe they were, maybe they weren't, but I have no reason to believe one way or the other based on the limited objective information currently available.

 

[flourish]

I was just reviewing some the articles, and saw this, which I wasn't sure about, so I thought I would share with my bold added:

The report said witnesses saw a middle-aged man firing at the Dodge Durango and then leave the scene. The report did not say if the shooter was inside or outside the car when the incident took place.

http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/...ation-slaying-17-year-old-booked-jacksonville

 

[flourish]

Hm, this seems to give more details as to the sequence of shots and movements? If accurate? Anyway, with my bold added:

The New York Times said Dunn was a gun collector who pulled a 9mm gun from his glove box and fired tworounds then two more. He fired four more shots, his lawyer told the paper as the teenagers pulled out.

http://members.jacksonville.com/new...cksonville-teens-slaying-was-reconnecting-son

 

[flourish]

But then there's this, which makes me wonder if this is where the above recounting of shots came from--seems to be Mr. Dunn.:

[Mr. Dunn's lawyer, Ms. Lemonidis] has said the teens drove off after Dunn fired at them, and he fired four shots as they left to &#8220;make sure they did not fire the shotgun.&#8221; She said the teens apparently got rid of the weapon before returning to the store. The SUV was seen at the shooting scene as police investigated Friday night.

Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/...ewing-say-he-did-not-deserve-be#ixzz2EiY1k5Uz

eta: Now I'm super extra curious about what the witness statements will say about the sequence!
​

 

[Donjeta]

It wouldn't matter if they planned it, They may have been participating in the act. You did read the one guy just heard about a plan and he is serving life! He did nothing to stop it!

What you said earlier was, "Atually if it could be proven any one if the teens made a theath of death they all could be charged with murder. They have just as much at stake. "

If all people in an encounter have been participating in a crime all can of course be charged.

It's a far cry from proving that one of them did something and then charging all of them, even those who did nothing.

What do you suppose people could do to stop someone in the same car from uttering a threat? It's usually a heat of the moment thing, not something you discuss with your friends beforehand. "To utter a death threat or not to utter a death threat, that's the question..."

 

[flourish]

And, finally for now:

Davis was in the back seat when “there were words exchanged,” followed by gunfire at 7:40 p.m., said Jacksonville homicide Lt. Rob Schoonover.

Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/...-guilty-slaying-wolfson-student#ixzz2EiZTOQiY
​

I'm wondering if this came from witness, in or out of Davis' party, or from Mr. Dunn.

:sigh: I wish the news would actually make things more clear.

as if :floorlaugh:

fftobed:

 

[Donjeta]

To date the is no credible evidence the shooter shot the teenagers over loud music yet almost everyone who has posted on this thread has stated that is why they were shot at, in almost the same post they all claim they would never shoot someone over loud music! Stop and think about that!

Right, I would never shoot anyone over loud music, nor would I shoot anyone over anything else. I don't carry a gun.

 

[flourish]

okay one more, this quote from Jordan Davis' father:

When Dunn pulled out the gun, the teens' initially thought it was a fake then frantically tried to back up the car before being caught in the gunfire, Ron Davis said.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/28/us/florida-music-shooting/

 

[Donjeta]

And, finally for now:

Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/...-guilty-slaying-wolfson-student#ixzz2EiZTOQiY
​

I'm wondering if this came from witness, in or out of Davis' party, or from Mr. Dunn.

:sigh: I wish the news would actually make things more clear.

as if :floorlaugh:

fftobed:

I suppose this at least is something they are able to establish from the evidence. The blood spatter patterns and the gunshot trajectories would tell the investigators if he was in the backseat when he was shot, so there's little point in anyone lying about it.

 

[Donjeta]

sbm~
and the teens fleeing in fear for their life!

this is a hyperbole, imo, complete with the exclamation point and, at minimum, a subjective statement based on no known evidence. Which is fine since, as I understand it, you're speaking as a poster and not a moderator. That said, there's no evidence that I'm aware of that there was any fear on the part of the people in the vehicle that was shot at or that they left the scene because of any fear. They obviously weren't afraid of loudly blasting music in a public place and we'll see whether they were afraid of a verbal or physical confrontation, including deadly force. Maybe they were, maybe they weren't, but I have no reason to believe one way or the other based on the limited objective information currently available.

It is not a stretch to assume people are scared if they are shot at and one of their friends just died or got seriously wounded.

Teenagers who listen to loud music are not that different from normal people. They are not terrorists, usually, just kids.

 

[flourish]

To date the is no credible evidence the shooter shot the teenagers over loud music yet almost everyone who has posted on this thread has stated that is why they were shot at, in almost the same post they all claim they would never shoot someone over loud music! Stop and think about that!

I would like everyone to state what it would take (what provocation) for them to feel the need shoot someone in a public area.

<snip times two>

Well, you can lop all the non gun-owners off right at the top of the pile of us, right there. I'd reckon the non-gun owners' claims that they would never shoot someone over loud music is fair and accurate. It also kinda implies that they would never shoot someone. Period. Because they don't have guns.

Then you have to consider okay so how many of the poster left, the gun owners, how many of them actually carry &/or are nearby their weapons and how often, and whether or not their weapons are kept loaded.

Then you gotta find someone who is first willing to say they would shoot someone at all ever, and who carries &/or is nearby their loaded weapons often enough for this to be a reasonable scenario, because some of the gun owners might not be willing to say they would shoot someone in the first place.

THEN you have to get over the final hurdle of, if you've gotten this far, would you shoot someone because their music was too loud?

You see, it whittles down and down until you get to a smaller amount of posters that can even answer that question. Seems it might be like that in the general populace, too?

So, uh, good luck getting your question answered in any way that could be truly meaningful towards making a point?

:waitasec:

 

[flourish]

It is not a stretch to assume people are scared if they are shot at and one of their friends just died or got seriously wounded.

Teenagers who listen to loud music are not that different from normal people. They are not terrorists, usually, just kids.

LOL, ikr, didn't someone even point out that all of us were very likely teenagers at one point or another? Some more trustworthy and younger looking than their lying, less well-aged counterparts :giggle: