GUILTY FL - Jordan Davis, 17, shot to death, Satellite Beach, 23 Nov 2012 #1

[Steely Dan]

Today, Dunn has been formally indicted by a grand jury now for first-degree murder of Jordan Davis and an additional 3 counts of attempted murder of the other 3 teens shot at.
http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/...against-michael-dunn-shooting-over-loud-music

http://www.news4jax.com/news/Dunn-i...harge/-/475880/17766090/-/obplkz/-/index.html

Link to the indictment: http://www.news4jax.com/blob/view/-...u4kcz/-/Document--Michael-Dunn-indictment.pdf

Dunn's arraignment date has been moved up to Dec 17th from Dec 19th: http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/...Jordan-Davis-shooting-death-faces-new-charges

And today the Florida Supremen Court ruled that a state statute setting restrictions on loud music is "invalid". http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/...upreme-Court-rules-loud-music-statute-invalid

Well, he's gonna have to dig out of this doo doo somehow.

 

[songline]

Well, he's gonna have to dig out of this doo doo somehow.

I do not think he is digging anything out of this heap.... :nono:

 

[LolaMoon08]

Today, Dunn has been formally indicted by a grand jury now for first-degree murder of Jordan Davis and an additional 3 counts of attempted murder of the other 3 teens shot at.
http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/...against-michael-dunn-shooting-over-loud-music

http://www.news4jax.com/news/Dunn-i...harge/-/475880/17766090/-/obplkz/-/index.html

Link to the indictment: http://www.news4jax.com/blob/view/-...u4kcz/-/Document--Michael-Dunn-indictment.pdf

Dunn's arraignment date has been moved up to Dec 17th from Dec 19th: http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/...Jordan-Davis-shooting-death-faces-new-charges

And today the Florida Supremen Court ruled that a state statute setting restrictions on loud music is "invalid". http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/...upreme-Court-rules-loud-music-statute-invalid

I wasn't expecting 1st degree murder charges? I always expect 2nd degree murder charges in cases like these. They must have some solid evidence for a Grand Jury to indict on 1st degree murder charges. I am also happy he has been charged with 3 counts of attempted murder.

Can the State throw in a 2nd degree and a Manslaughter charge as well... just in case?

 

[Steely Dan]

I wasn't expecting 1st degree murder charges? I always expect 2nd degree murder charges in cases like these. They must have some solid evidence for a Grand Jury to indict on 1st degree murder charges. I am also happy he has been charged with 3 counts of attempted murder.

Can the State throw in a 2nd degree and a Manslaughter charge as well... just in case?

In KC's trial the jury was given different options.

 

[LolaMoon08]

In KC's trial the jury was given different options.

I doubt they would go for the Death Penalty in this case, but even 1st degree murder charges scare me now. I hope they also put lesser charges on the table along with the 1st degree murder charges just as options. Then a judge needs to lay the law down about every single charge and make a jury understand.

 

[Nova]

In KC's trial the jury was given different options.

It depends on the facts. In order to give options to the jury, the State has to successfully argue that a reasonable juror might arrive at more than one guilty verdict based on that juror's opinion of the evidence.

For example--THIS IS ENTIRELY HYPOTHETICAL--if there were testimony that the victims had threatened to seduce Dunn's g.f. when she came out of the store, a jury might conclude that Dunn was so upset by the statements that he couldn't control his emotions or, therefore, his behavior. That might lead the jury to a verdict of manslaughter instead of 1st or 2nd degree murder.

* Note: I am not a lawyer. My example is based on my knowledge of California law rather than Florida law.

But I think the basic principle is universal in the U.S. that the prosecution must argue a reasonable theory for each charge it wants offered to a jury. The defense can also ask the judge to give jurors the options of lesser included offenses, at which time the defense has the same burden. There can be considerable haggling about this behind the scenes.

AFAIK, the choices offered to the jury can change during the trial depending on the evidence actually produced.

 

[songline]

I doubt they would go for the Death Penalty in this case, but even 1st degree murder charges scare me now. I hope they also put lesser charges on the table along with the 1st degree murder charges just as options. Then a judge needs to lay the law down about every single charge and make a jury understand.

I wish he was charged with M 1&2 that way there is certainty
that this man is not going to see the light of day.

 

[gxm]

I doubt they would go for the Death Penalty in this case, but even 1st degree murder charges scare me now. I hope they also put lesser charges on the table along with the 1st degree murder charges just as options. Then a judge needs to lay the law down about every single charge and make a jury understand.

IANAL, but I'm guessing that the reason for 1st degree murder is because Dunn had to retrieve his gun from his glove box, and it also sounds like the teens were getting ready to leave, IOW he shot them will they were in retreat. JMO and all that.

 

[flourish]

It depends on the facts. In order to give options to the jury, the State has to successfully argue that a reasonable juror might arrive at more than one guilty verdict based on that juror's opinion of the evidence.

For example--THIS IS ENTIRELY HYPOTHETICAL--if there were testimony that the victims had threatened to seduce Dunn's g.f. when she came out of the store, a jury might conclude that Dunn was so upset by the statements that he couldn't control his emotions or, therefore, his behavior. That might lead the jury to a verdict of manslaughter instead of 1st or 2nd degree murder.

* Note: I am not a lawyer. My example is based on my knowledge of California law rather than Florida law.

But I think the basic principle is universal in the U.S. that the prosecution must argue a reasonable theory for each charge it wants offered to a jury. The defense can also ask the judge to give jurors the options of lesser included offenses, at which time the defense has the same burden. There can be considerable haggling about this behind the scenes.

AFAIK, the choices offered to the jury can change during the trial depending on the evidence actually produced.

I'm sorry, I know this is a grave subject, but "threatened to seduce his g.f." Nova, you freaking crack me up sometimes...the wording there...dude...:laughcry:


I, too, am a little scared of the 1st degree charges thanks to the Pinellas dozen, and am fine with the death penalty not being pursued. I have mixed feelings about the death penalty in general, and am totally find with life being the alternative, plus after the aforementioned debacle, I worry how the jury will be impacted by having death as a sentencing option.

I'm also very interested, like the rest of you, about what exactly brought about the change in charges...I certainly didn't see that coming!

I also look forward to hearing others' perspective on this...IYKWIM.

 

[Nova]

I'm sorry, I know this is a grave subject, but "threatened to seduce his g.f." Nova, you freaking crack me up sometimes...the wording there...dude...:laughcry:...

I know. I got tangled in my own hypothetical. Because if they threatened to rape the g.f. and the jury found that Dunn believed them, his shooting might fall under SYG (defense of others threatened with bodily harm) instead of manslaughter.

I was trying to think of something the victim might say that would upset Dunn so much he was under extreme emotional duress and not fully responsible for his actions. That would be manslaughter in California.

So I meant to go with sexual remarks about the g.f., but for some reason I pulled a word from the 19th century. I should have hypothesized something along the lines of the victim claiming he had actually slept with the g.f. That might be seen as sufficient to cause extreme emotional duress.

AGAIN: ALL OF THE ABOVE IS HYPOTHETICAL AND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE FACTS IN THIS CASE.

 

[Steely Dan]

I know. I got tangled in my own hypothetical. Because if they threatened to rape the g.f. and the jury found that Dunn believed them, his shooting might fall under SYG (defense of others threatened with bodily harm) instead of manslaughter.

I was trying to think of something the victim might say that would upset Dunn so much he was under extreme emotional duress and not fully responsible for his actions. That would be manslaughter in California.

So I meant to go with sexual remarks about the g.f., but for some reason I pulled a word from the 19th century. I should have hypothesized something along the lines of the victim claiming he had actually slept with the g.f. That might be seen as sufficient to cause extreme emotional duress.

AGAIN: ALL OF THE ABOVE IS HYPOTHETICAL AND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE FACTS IN THIS CASE.

I don't think that would qualify as SYG.

As for premeditation, IIRC, legally premeditation can take place within seconds.

 

[ScubaTwinn]

JACKSONVILLE, Fla. -- Monday morning Michael Dunn, the man accused of killing 17-year-old Jordan Davis entered a plea of not guilty to charges of first-degree murder.

http://m.jacksonville.com/news/crim...nville-teens-shooting-death-pleads-not-guilty

 

[Nova]

I don't think that would qualify as SYG.

As for premeditation, IIRC, legally premeditation can take place within seconds.

Oh, absolutely re premeditation.

And doesn't Florida's SYG allow for defending others from bodily harm? Without doing a scientific research project, it seems to me that most such laws do.

Speaking of premeditation, I still haven't heard or read whether Dunn actually fired through the car window or simply emptied his gun into the side of the car in retaliation. The latter might net him a charge of 2nd degree or even manslaughter in California.

 

[mobeydick]

Yep, sounds like the teenagers are real believable. They did leave, The shooter left also. If his leaving inplies guilt so does theirs!


After his Nov. 24 arrest, Dunn’s first attorney stated he fired when he saw a shotgun in their SUV, and they threw it away after they drove off. The Davis family attorney, John Phillips, confirmed they did leave.
“What would you do if someone was shooting 10 rounds at you?” Phillips said.
Dunn’s family has now hired Strolla, who said he talked with Gate employees who told him the SUV came back after driving away. As to whether there was a shotgun, police said they found no evidence and Strolla said he won’t know until his investigation is done.


Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/...hooting-death-pleads-not-guilty#ixzz2FQcK4Qq4

 

[LolaMoon08]

The teens did not flee the scene, in my opinion. Throwing your car in reverse or drive to save yourself from the bullets penetrating your vehicle is not fleeing, but a life saving measure that they had no choice but to make. How far did they actually make it before returning to the scene? How long from the time the first 911 call was made to the time police arrived? Seriously? You call someone trying to get away from a mad man fleeing?

I'll play though... so the teens fled, but who came back immediately? Police didn't have to hunt these teens down, now did they? They knew they did nothing wrong and that is why they came back to the scene. I am surprised they did come back to the scene and didn't rush their friend to the hospital which shows me these kids were in shock and wanted help.

MOO

 

[daisy7]

Yep, sounds like the teenagers are real believable. They did leave, The shooter left also. If his leaving inplies guilt so does theirs!


After his Nov. 24 arrest, Dunn’s first attorney stated he fired when he saw a shotgun in their SUV, and they threw it away after they drove off. The Davis family attorney, John Phillips, confirmed they did leave.
“What would you do if someone was shooting 10 rounds at you?” Phillips said.
Dunn’s family has now hired Strolla, who said he talked with Gate employees who told him the SUV came back after driving away. As to whether there was a shotgun, police said they found no evidence and Strolla said he won’t know until his investigation is done.


Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/...hooting-death-pleads-not-guilty#ixzz2FQcK4Qq4

If someone was shooting at my car, I'd high-tail it out of there, also. The boys came back while Dunn just went to his hotel room with his GF. If he thought these boys were such a dangerous threat with their supposed shotgun that he shot up their car, why didn't he ever call 911?

 

[gxm]

Yep, sounds like the teenagers are real believable. They did leave, The shooter left also. If his leaving inplies guilt so does theirs!


After his Nov. 24 arrest, Dunn’s first attorney stated he fired when he saw a shotgun in their SUV, and they threw it away after they drove off. The Davis family attorney, John Phillips, confirmed they did leave.
“What would you do if someone was shooting 10 rounds at you?” Phillips said.
Dunn’s family has now hired Strolla, who said he talked with Gate employees who told him the SUV came back after driving away. As to whether there was a shotgun, police said they found no evidence and Strolla said he won’t know until his investigation is done.


Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/...hooting-death-pleads-not-guilty#ixzz2FQcK4Qq4

BBM.

Actually, the teens do sound believable. They were trying to get away from Dunn's spray of gunfire. What would be unbelievable is if they'd just sat there without reacting. Further, the teens also sound completely non-threatening since they chose to flee the gunfire and not use their car as a weapon and run over their attacker.

From the linked article: " ... that these gentlemen in the car not only gave verbal threats of death but were attempting to get out of the car to attack Mr. Dunn and that is when he fired.”

Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/...hooting-death-pleads-not-guilty#ixzz2FQt2dnY9

I find this odd. The teens were "attempting" to get out of the car? Did none of the four young men know how to work a car door? How do you "attempt" to get out of a car unless you are being restrained and/or the car/door is damaged in some way and not functioning properly? Sorry, but every story Dunn and his lawyers tries to spin just gets more ridiculous with each new telling.

 

[Donjeta]

What would even be the point of attempting to get out of the car to attack Dunn if they had a shotgun handy?

 

[gxm]

What would even be the point of attempting to get out of the car to attack Dunn if they had a shotgun handy?

Clearly someone had a shotgun handy cuz Dunn's story is chock-full of holes!

 

[LolaMoon08]

If someone was shooting at my car, I'd high-tail it out of there, also. The boys came back while Dunn just went to his hotel room with his GF. If he thought these boys were such a dangerous threat with their supposed shotgun that he shot up their car, why didn't he ever call 911?

The way I see it happening is that the boys did try and get away from the bullets penetrating their vehicle, whether reversing or pressing on the gas. They seen the shooter leave the scene as they were and when they felt safe enough to turn around, turned right back around. They knew people were at the gas station and they wanted help. There have been no reports of anyone writing down these boys license plates as they fled... only the shooters. So, it appears to me, the witness who did write down the tag number knew who was the guilty party.