GUILTY FL - Lakeland girl, 14, charged with killing newborn son, 19 Sept 2012

[JBean]

Debate all you want. But there are a lot of personal affronts and attacks on this thread.
please stop the personalizing posts and directing them at members.
State your positions with civility.
Thanks very much.


Post lands randomly on the thread.

 

[flipflop]

[/B]

I'm very interested in finding out who the father is. I don't have the link for the quote but she told cops she was afraid the relationship with her family would change if she had the baby. It was mentioned her older sister was thrown out when she got pregnant. Was she afraid of being thrown out or outing the father of the baby?.

I remember reading that as well. CG stated something along the line of
not wanting to rock her relationship with her parents. Which tells me that she didn't want to follow her sisters footsteps and get kicked out.


as for who the father is....

Detectives are working on determining who the father of the baby is, Judd said. He said they may have an idea of his identity, but don't have confirmation yet.

 

[SoBeCzar]

I don't get why a child is a child until the prosecutor wants to try them as an adult.
This was murder but I am not ready to throw away hope that this girl can live a productive life and not commit another crime. Not just not murder again.
I abhor her crime but wouldn't be surprised if even she does not understand her thinking in why she did this. Kids don't reason like adults. She is a child who was under extreme stress mental and physical. I wish we had more of a rehabilitative penal system, especially for teen criminals.

 

[Oblio]

Right or wrong, morals aside, what a lot of you are forgetting is that infanticide has almost always been practiced in human societies. Usually when a mother perceives danger in keeping the child. It's horrible, yes, but it is to some degree normal, whether we like it or not.

This young girl, so young in mentality that she didn't understand that things don't go *poof* under her bed, perceived the danger of abandonment, that is a threat to her own survival, if her parents learned that she was pregnant. She did what mothers have done for centuries when they see their newborn child as a threat to their survival.

I don't think that makes it right, or excusable, but it leads me to believe that she is not a lost cause. She is a child who can still grow and blossom into a positive, contributing member of society, but only if this is handled right.

 

[flipflop]

I don't get why a child is a child until the prosecutor wants to try them as an adult.This was murder but I am not ready to throw away hope that this girl can live a productive life and not commit another crime. Not just not murder again.
I abhor her crime but wouldn't be surprised if even she does not understand her thinking in why she did this. Kids don't reason like adults. She is a child who was under extreme stress mental and physical. I wish we had more of a rehabilitative penal system, especially for teen criminals.

I don't think we will see her tried as an adult. Some cases where the perp was closer to the adult age have been moved to adult courts. Being 14 is too far away from the adult age IMO whether she was immature or mature makes no difference to me as all 14 yr olds are both at different circumstances.....some will whine and cry like babies to get their own way, then turn around and dress with sex appeal and act like a 21 yr old. I believe the system will remember she is a teenager at the age of 14 and try her as such. JMO Either way she is tried....she is still a murderer.

 

[peeples]

If she was raped, that really sucks.. I was violently raped when I was 9, it changes a person forever. However, nothing gives her the right to take the life of an innocent baby.. NOTHING.

 

[jjenny]

Right or wrong, morals aside, what a lot of you are forgetting is that infanticide has almost always been practiced in human societies. Usually when a mother perceives danger in keeping the child. It's horrible, yes, but it is to some degree normal, whether we like it or not.

This young girl, so young in mentality that she didn't understand that things don't go *poof* under her bed, perceived the danger of abandonment, that is a threat to her own survival, if her parents learned that she was pregnant. She did what mothers have done for centuries when they see their newborn child as a threat to their survival.

I don't think that makes it right, or excusable, but it leads me to believe that she is not a lost cause. She is a child who can still grow and blossom into a positive, contributing member of society, but only if this is handled right.

People have been killing each other for centuries too. Some for material possessions, some out of jealousy, or whatever reasons. So I really am not getting what you are arguing here.

 

[MsFacetious]

"Her son was still connected to her by the umbilical cord when she choked him to death," Polk County Sheriff Grady Judd said. "I just can't get over that."

-----------------------------------

A one point, labor pains were so intense she took a pair of scissors to "pry the baby out," she told detectives. She eventually delivered a 9.5-pound, 20.4-inch baby boy alive.

G**** told detectives she could feel the baby's pulse.
She then put her hands around the infant's neck and squeezed for about a minute until he wasn't moving or breathing, Judd said.

G***** then showered with the dead baby, cleaning both her body and his, Judd said.

He said she put the baby into a shoebox along with soiled clothing and towels.

http://www.theledger.com/article/20120928/NEWS/120929363?tc=cr


It was an "incredibly tragic event that makes you sick to your stomach," Judd said.

---------------------------------

"It's important to point out that the investigation is ongoing," Judd said at a news conference, "but quite frankly there never will be adequate explanations, nor do we suspect that all of our questions will be answered."

--------------------------

While going through the bag, she found the body and called family members who notified authorities, investigators said.

http://www2.tbo.com/news/news/2012/...rged-in-strangulation-death-of-new-ar-516071/

 

[Oblio]

People have been killing each other for centuries too. Some for material possessions, some out of jealousy, or whatever reasons. So I really am not getting what you are arguing here.

My point is that it is an almost primal flight or fight reaction to preserve the mother's own life.

Obviously her life wasn't threatened by a baby living, we know this, but in her mind having the confirmation of pregnancy meant the loss of resources- that is her parents continuing to raise, support, feed and house her. That is quite a bit different than killing a classmate for a necklace or any other situation that would illustrate killing for personal gain or jealousy. What she did was kill to avoid a perceived loss.

 

[Reader]

While we're waiting on more news and information on the case, I was interested in the question about whether C, at 14 years old, understands the difference between right and wrong.

Here is one article that discusses that question and also about children being tried as adults (it's a little old but has good info):

Right From Wrong -- At What Age Do Children Develop A Moral Sense, And Understand What It Means To Commit A Crime?

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19941025&slug=1937798

Some exerpts:

Above all, their message was this: chronological age means nothing. Abuse, emotional deprivation and exposure to violence or drugs development - meaning that not all children develop a conscience along the same timetable. It is typical that children charged with crimes are not functioning at their chronological ages.............

"There are some kids who are not of adult legal age, who probably need to have pretty long sentences, because they have done horrendous crimes, a lot of them, and they have no sense of connection with society as we know it today. They may have made those choices because of terrible things that happened them, but they need to be held responsible for those terrible choices they made." Even they, he said, eventually could be rehabilitated, if they are young enough at the time of the crime.

If they have killed someone, "Psychologically that is a turning event for a child; they are harder to rehabilitate." Not, he says, impossible.

But, Womack says, "The things that lead a kid to not care if they kill someone make it hard for them to be part of society. They don't look at human life as being very valuable. They see themselves as . . . unimportant to the system. Therefore the system is unimportant to them."

According to the work of a lot of developmental psychologists, says Farrow, for most normal teens there's a shift in early adolescence in the way the child thinks ("cognitive function", as they say), from concrete to abstract. It varies considerably, but usually this takes place between the ages of 12 and 15.

"That's where a person becomes able to understand the consequences of their behavior or actions," Farrow says. "Before that, they can't do this to the same degree. They're not as future oriented. They don't see cause and effect relationships very well."

What happens to allow, typically, for such maturity at that age? Nobody knows for sure, Farrow says, but most developmental theorists, following Jean Piaget's theory, believe that there are physical changes in the brain that allow for that capacity to think more abstractly and be future oriented.

While these are all generalizations, and kids have to be assessed on a case by case basis, he says, "generally a child under 14 is going to be clearly less mature in terms of brain functioning, than a kid over 14. With kids under 14, there's good reason to believe they are cognitively immature enough that they are not thinking like an adult.

"Kids over 14, you might be able to make the case, they should be thinking like an adult."

Farrow says that the law allows people at age 14 to consent to a lot of their own medical treatment, such as for mental health, substance abuse, STDs, pregnancy detection and abortion. This consent age is based on the "mature minor doctrine," which in turn is based on developmental theory that says normal adolescents are mature enough in their thinking at that age to be able to consent to their own medical care without parental permission.

More at link.....

 

[leanaí]

Right or wrong, morals aside, what a lot of you are forgetting is that infanticide has almost always been practiced in human societies. Usually when a mother perceives danger in keeping the child. It's horrible, yes, but it is to some degree normal, whether we like it or not.

This young girl, so young in mentality that she didn't understand that things don't go *poof* under her bed, perceived the danger of abandonment, that is a threat to her own survival, if her parents learned that she was pregnant. She did what mothers have done for centuries when they see their newborn child as a threat to their survival.

I don't think that makes it right, or excusable, but it leads me to believe that she is not a lost cause. She is a child who can still grow and blossom into a positive, contributing member of society, but only if this is handled right.

She MURDERED her son! I do not want her to blossom into a positive member of society, I want her to pay for her sons life! I do not care if she was raped or abused, that does not give her the right to murder her child! Nor does her being afraid of her family disowning her.

Sadly infanticide will be allowed one day just as killing your baby in the womb is allowed, it is only a matter of time.

Children should be taught how life is precious, instead they are taught it's "ok" to murder your own child.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Firstly, she was raped, she was 14 which is below the age of consent. Whoever raped her had access to her. My 14 year old was never left alone with anyone long enough to even be kissed, so that's neglect right there by my standards.

Secondly, two wrongs don't make a right. I understand the need for vengeance but that's what the desire to "make her pay" is. I'm sure she did not go out of her way to become pregnant, carry it, go into labor then murder the baby. For one thing, it would have been scary and painful.

This shows a child who has been let down by everyone around her from her parents to her school to her government. She has obviously "slipped through the cracks", clearly not even having an idea about birth control. God only knows if she could access a free abortion or even counselling, but I doubt it.

I will almost guarantee she has come from an abusive background herself which is probably why she felt she could trust nobody. She could well have been unbalanced at the time and thinking she was doing her baby a favour. It seems unfathomable but it happens.

I think treating her like a callous murderer is a double injustice. Yes she needs to be punished, and made to realise what she's done...but if she does, so do a whole lot of other people with way more resources, who sat about and let this happen.

 

[MsFacetious]

This case and the ones of babies being abandoned in the woods, near dumpsters, etc really got me thinking.
I have two girls, under 10 years old. We have a family history of teen pregnancy. This worries me.

It got me thinking...
How many of these girls DID know about Safe Havens?
How many of these girls DID have a family they could trust to go to?
How many of these girls had been told "we will love you and help you no matter what?"

So today, my girls learned about all of the above.
Using a Little House on the Prairie episode as a jumping off point, (which we do often) we discussed this issue.

When asked what she would do instead of abandoning the baby...
My daughter would basically tell me to shove it, because it would be her baby and she wouldn't give it away.
I guess that is basically what I said to my parents when I got pregnant... as I packed to move out.
She also informed me though, that she wasn't worried.
She knew we would accept and help her, no matter what... unlike some other parents.

I wish parents would realize how what they say and do comes across to their children.
Before you say something about a teen pregnancy, or the gay kid down the street...
Imagine how YOUR child would feel if they heard you say that while secretly pregnant or gay.

Just something that has been getting to me a bit lately I guess. :banghead:

 

[IWannaKnow]

This 14 year old child has been failed on so many different levels yet the general public is screaming for vengeance and suggesting she should be killed in horrifying ways. Why isn't her mother being held accountable? Is she not responsible for a 14 year old?

1) The step father noticed she had gained weight as well as two maternal aunts. Still the mother didn't suspect anything strongly enough to take her to the doctor or be present for the pregnancy tests?
2) Two separate pregnancy tests were given to her, in private, and both came out "no response" which the mother took to mean "not pregnant". Every test I looked at says something, yes/no, pregnant/not pregnant, two lines or only one line....not simply blank.
3) She had 4-5 vaginal lesions when her mother took her to the doctor after she told her mother she had a miscarriage and flushed it down the toilet. How could any medical professional or a woman who had given birth believe that a child small enough to flush down the toilet would cause 4-5 vaginal lesions?
4) Comments I've read have said a sister got pregnant and was kicked out of the home. CG stated the reason she did this was because she didn't want her relationship with her mother and family to change. Doesn't sound to me like there would have been much support there if she had come clean to her mother.
5) A 5'3" 100# 14 year old girl delivers a 9.5 lb baby all alone, with no assistance. That would be a terrifying and extremely painful experience for a grown woman. How could that possibly go down in a single wide trailer and the mother, who was there at the time, not hear anything??? She was supposed to be sick that day. Wouldn't you check on your child if she had been in the bathroom for two hours?
6) She didn't simply throw the baby away. She washed it and kept it in her room. It wasn't just tossed into the trash as you frequently read about.
7) The very same scenario played out in 2006 14 year old charged with murdering her newborn daughter - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
yet this 14 year old was not splashed all over the web with her mug shot, full name, address and date of birth displayed for all the world to see. In fact, you can't even read the articles anymore....I read about all kinds of heinous actions by other children and their names are not published, much less their address and vital statistics.
8) If she either didn't know about or didn't have access to birth control, why would she know she could leave her child at the hospital or a fire station? Take a poll. Does your 14 year old know this information?
9) If the Facebook profile I saw was the correct one it shows an average 14 year old girl, not a vamping, boy crazy temptress. Not a single mention of boys or sex. In fact the profile pic was sock puppets.

What she did was horrifying and inexcusable but this child made a mistake and then compounded it with interest. Is ruining the rest of her life going to bring back that baby boy? Is this how you would want your child to be treated if she did the same thing? She isn't the first and will not be the last...

http://www.theledger.com/article/20120928/NEWS/120929363
http://www.abcactionnews.com/dpp/ne...-with-murdering-her-newborn-boy#ixzz27otWDDJ7

 

[claudicici]

Her mother seems really young as well....if I am looking at the right person.Does she have a sister one year younger then herself?

 

[PHB]

She MURDERED her son! I do not want her to blossom into a positive member of society, I want her to pay for her sons life! I do not care if she was raped or abused, that does not give her the right to murder her child! Nor does her being afraid of her family disowning her.

Sadly infanticide will be allowed one day just as killing your baby in the womb is allowed, it is only a matter of time.

Children should be taught how life is precious, instead they are taught it's "ok" to murder your own child.

I guess, unless some new info about her home life or mental health status comes out (I truly hope there is something to, not excuse, but explain, this) I tend to agree. Some things are beyond the pale. Alyssa Bustamante was only a year older than her, and she got life.
JMO

 

[PHB]

Firstly, she was raped, she was 14 which is below the age of consent. Whoever raped her had access to her. My 14 year old was never left alone with anyone long enough to even be kissed, so that's neglect right there by my standards.

Secondly, two wrongs don't make a right. I understand the need for vengeance but that's what the desire to "make her pay" is. I'm sure she did not go out of her way to become pregnant, carry it, go into labor then murder the baby. For one thing, it would have been scary and painful.

This shows a child who has been let down by everyone around her from her parents to her school to her government. She has obviously "slipped through the cracks", clearly not even having an idea about birth control. God only knows if she could access a free abortion or even counselling, but I doubt it.

I will almost guarantee she has come from an abusive background herself which is probably why she felt she could trust nobody. She could well have been unbalanced at the time and thinking she was doing her baby a favour. It seems unfathomable but it happens.

I think treating her like a callous murderer is a double injustice. Yes she needs to be punished, and made to realise what she's done...but if she does, so do a whole lot of other people with way more resources, who sat about and let this happen.

BBM1: You have no idea how she got pregnant. It may have been a boyfriend of the same age. (I doubt it, but until details come out, we don't know.)

BBM2: This isn't about "two wrongs making a right". It's about keeping a sociopath off the streets. ( you know, PROTECTING THE PUBLIC?) If she is released at 21 y/o, with a sealed juvie record, would you let her babysit your kids?

How many people come from $hi+y backgrounds turn out to be child killers? (hint: very few of 'em)

Anxiously awaiting your response.

 

[flipflop]

Firstly, she was raped, she was 14 which is below the age of consent. Whoever raped her had access to her. My 14 year old was never left alone with anyone long enough to even be kissed, so that's neglect right there by my standards.

Secondly, two wrongs don't make a right. I understand the need for vengeance but that's what the desire to "make her pay" is. I'm sure she did not go out of her way to become pregnant, carry it, go into labor then murder the baby. For one thing, it would have been scary and painful.

This shows a child who has been let down by everyone around her from her parents to her school to her government. She has obviously "slipped through the cracks", clearly not even having an idea about birth control. God only knows if she could access a free abortion or even counselling, but I doubt it.

I will almost guarantee she has come from an abusive background herself which is probably why she felt she could trust nobody. She could well have been unbalanced at the time and thinking she was doing her baby a favour. It seems unfathomable but it happens.

I think treating her like a callous murderer is a double injustice. Yes she needs to be punished, and made to realise what she's done...but if she does, so do a whole lot of other people with way more resources, who sat about and let this happen.

Could you provide a link to back this up???????

 

[lisalei321]

Florida's age of consent is 18, with special provisions for 16 & 17 year olds.

Under 16 would still be considered statutory rape (per Wiki, which I can't link on my phone).

I think serious consideration needs to be given on the circumstances of how this happened, and why this happened the way it did.

 

[daisy7]

Florida's age of consent is 18, with special provisions for 16 & 17 year olds.

Under 16 would still be considered statutory rape (per Wiki, which I can't link on my phone).

I think serious consideration needs to be given on the circumstances of how this happened, and why this happened the way it did.

The father of the baby committed a second degree felony, regardless of how old he is.

https://www.santarosa.k12.fl.us/files/ktlaw.pdf

Page 15 of the .pdf file. This also has the breakdown for 16-17 yos.