Found Deceased FL - Lane Graves, 2, Walt Disney World, 14 June 2016 #1

[LinasK]

Disney does take precautions against alligators, though. They regularly have people go through and make sure there are none on their property, and if there are, they fish them out immediately. However, sometimes an alligator does get through, because the water is their natural habitat and they can't prevent every single one from coming through. They don't have a 24/7 alligator patrol.

They shouldn't have to block off every body of water with a fence because of the one-in-a-million chance that somebody might be attacked by an alligator, something that had never happened before in over 70 years of operation. Especially when they already had a "NO SWIMMING" sign.

Yeah, but tourists(especially a 2 year old) don't realize that "No Swimming" is because of alligators. I certainly wouldn't have known that or from the tiny little signs. Disney really needed to have better signs- not minimize an accident waiting to happen, simply because it's "the happiest place on Earth". Also, maybe this beach should be closed off entirely by fencing since alligators can crawl up on the beach. I agree with the poster who said it should be rocky, not enticing white sand and holding movies on the beach.

 

[LinasK]

Without being overly graphic, I was thinking maybe the alligator shook him hard enough to cause his death.

Probably because I want to believe it was instantaneous and he didn't suffer or feel terror.

Agreed, and probably it was because the Orca that killed trainer Dawn Brancheau at Sea World did it in that way- she had traumatic injuries from being shaken as well as drowned.

 

[LinasK]

Personally I do not necessarily agree with that. Death by drowning may make for an intact corpse, but it doesn't necessarily make it more humane for the victim.

A crushed skull resulting in sudden death, or at least unconsciousness is more humane. One good thing about a severe and brutal animal attack is that the victims usually don't feel pain (adrenaline is too high).

Death by drowning means the parents can ruminate over the fact that the baby COULD have been saved if he had been reached in 6+ minutes.

They weren't gonna find this gator in 6+ min in murky water at night...

 

[Sulamith]

Yeah, that's the thing of it: We are such a nanny state by now that people expect everything in life to be 100% safe. If there's not a fence or a barricade or multitudes of huge warning signs, they think they can do whatever they want without ever considering the risks.

Life is full of risks. We can't get rid of them. Alligators. Sharks. Drunk drivers. Heck, mosquitos! I remember when the biggest worry from mosquitos was an itchy spot. Then we had to worry about West Nile Virus, then chikungunya, and now the Zika virus. If you go outdoors, you're at risk for Zika.

Sometimes bad things happen, and it's not anyone's fault. That doesn't make it any less heartbreaking, but there's not always blame to be placed.

Speaking about a nanny state. I am reading Death in Yellowstone: Accidents and Foolhardiness in the First National Park. https://www.amazon.com/Death-Yellow...+and+foolhardiness+in+the+first+national+park

Boy, I had no idea that some people were so stupid. There was a couple that sat their little baby in front of a bear so they could take a picture. Not a good outcome for the baby.

One story was about a man who was killed by a grizzly. Lawsuit. Were there adequate warning signs. Anyway, the judge thought there should have been more warning signs specifically warning about bears and suggested that the campsite could be fenced in.
FENCED IN in a WILDerness area?

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I am so thankful they were able to recover his little body and he was intact.

It is very common for an alligator to bite down on their prey in a grip like no other and then drag them to the bottom of the water holding them there until they drown. There would be no way the father could have wrestled his son away from the alligator. They have a jaw grip/pressure that is thousands of pounds per square inch.

I just read he was found about 10 feet from the water's edge in about 6 feet of water. He most likely dropped little Lane due to the father hitting him, and all of the thrashing around the father was trying to do to find him. Although some alligators will drown their prey first and will come back later to actually consume them. (So sorry to write that part but its true)

I cant begin to imagine the pain and suffering his parents are going through. This was suppose to be the happiest of times where wonderful memories are made that will last a lifetime Instead they have lost their son within seconds and now must take him home so that he can be buried to rest in peace.

I am praying for this family and all of Orlando who has been hit so hard by tragedy after tragedy in just a few short days.

IMO

 

[cvaldez1975]

My mom almost drowned as a child and she said she was scared a bout 30 seconds and then it was peaceful. She was saved though.

al

Personally I do not necessarily agree with that. Death by drowning may make for an intact corpse, but it doesn't necessarily make it more humane for the victim.

A crushed skull resulting in sudden death, or at least unconsciousness is more humane. One good thing about a severe and brutal animal attack is that the victims usually don't feel pain (adrenaline is too high).

Death by drowning means the parents can ruminate over the fact that the baby COULD have been saved if he had been reached in 6+ minutes.

 

[Sonya610]

They weren't gonna find this gator in 6+ min in murky water at night...

True but the parents will still focus on that six minutes if they think the baby was alive and possibly even suffering.

Personally I don't think the kid was suffering, it would be too much of a shock. Nevertheless hearing "near instant death" provides a lot of comfort even if the body is in bad shape.

 

[Boodles]

I agree. Although I know that there are gators in Florida waters, I would not have expected a gator there. I am from the Pacific NW, which is basically the opposite of Florida, and my gator knowledge is cursory. Yes, I could do a ton of research but should I not be able to trust a world-class destination to be a bit more proactive in protecting guests? As long as they post signs, why not make them fully informative?

My heart is broken for Lane and his family. Better signage - and not scheduling a kid-magnet activity on a dangerous waterway - might have saved him.

I'm from Florida. And I lived on a canal with alligators and saw them all the time. We had a sea wall, but had a fence along it so our dog would not get snatched. I have great respect for Disney and they do things well, but this was a screw up.

That's a big lagoon. They cannot possibly, as is apparent from this child's death, control all the gators, even though I'm sure they do their best. It was just negligent not to warn about gator potential to those on the shore.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Speaking about a nanny state. I am reading Death in Yellowstone: Accidents and Foolhardiness in the First National Park. https://www.amazon.com/Death-Yellow...+and+foolhardiness+in+the+first+national+park

Boy, I had no idea that some people were so stupid. There was a couple that sat their little baby in front of a bear so they could take a picture. Not a good outcome for the baby.

One story was about a man who was killed by a grizzly. Lawsuit. Were there adequate warning signs. Anyway, the judge thought there should have been more warning signs specifically warning about bears and suggested that the campsite could be fenced in.
FENCED IN in a WILDerness area?

Interesting. I feel such sadness for this accident & the family must be beyond distraught.

What I was thinking about is what variables lie in determining common sense & what is reasonable due to location.

For instance, if this death of this toddler went to court (lawsuit) in Kansas with a jury of their peers, oh boy, I bet Disney would be at fault & sued. Look at the reverse: if this death of this toddler went to court in Florida with a jury of their peers, oh boy, I bet Disney gets off the hook.

Floridians know that Florida is a beautiful state with a unique topography, weather, wildlife. I live here & my area is considered the Lightening Capitol of the World. Sharks migrate in the intracoastal during mating season which is in shocking numbers. At times I have snakes & iguanas in my garage. We have mosquitos with Zika virus. There's not enough signs & fences to protect everyone from nature. Adults must be aware of their surroundings. Risks are everywhere. I rarely rely on signage to know my risks.

RIP lil' guy

Moo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Such as sad case. A kid being a kid and a freak accident happened.

I've lived in Indiana my entire life, but vacationed almost every year in Florida. I've had to close encounters with gators even being well aware that they were there. One was sitting next to the sidewalk of the vacation house we were renting. I walked within 3 ft of it and didn't notice it until my walk back to the house from the car. It was a smaller one, maybe 4 ft long or so, but I decided it would be best to take the long way around and go through the back door. The second was right next to a bike trail and much bigger and I couldn't see it due to the bushes. Neither one were aggressive at all, but neither one moved after the close encounter.

A lot of people don't realize a gator is dangerous even if they are up on the bank sunning or out on land. We think because of their weight they are slow and clumsy but they can move very fast when being aggressive. Even if an adult gets too close and comes in contact with the gator's tale which they also use to kill prey or other alligators it can break the person or the other gator's back. I have seen some very aggressive ones and some that seem to be lazy and docile. I still did not get close to either one.

We had one about 5 feet in our pond about 10 years ago. I was walking toward the pond one day and I heard that all familiar low bellow. I knew it had to be a male and there had to be a female close by. The DNR came and took the male but they never did find the female even though they tracked her for a little ways. I guess she went to another pond further up from us. About a mile from us is the river and they have caught huge ones in it over the years up to 14 feet weighing over 1000 pounds.

When one night fishes its eerie because you can shine a flashlight out over the water and see their eyes glowing red in the dark. You will see them easing alone slowly and then all of a sudden disappear and then pop up somewhere else in a few minutes. You are always watching to make sure they aren't coming close to the boat.

They are very scary looking creatures. I just read an article last week that they are now finding crocodiles in Florida too.

IMO

 

[becciboo81]

Yeah, that's the thing of it: We are such a nanny state by now that people expect everything in life to be 100% safe. If there's not a fence or a barricade or multitudes of huge warning signs, they think they can do whatever they want without ever considering the risks.

Life is full of risks. We can't get rid of them. Alligators. Sharks. Drunk drivers. Heck, mosquitos! I remember when the biggest worry from mosquitos was an itchy spot. Then we had to worry about West Nile Virus, then chikungunya, and now the Zika virus. If you go outdoors, you're at risk for Zika.

Sometimes bad things happen, and it's not anyone's fault. That doesn't make it any less heartbreaking, but there's not always blame to be placed.

I'm a little rusty but there is a term in law that refers to whether they could have expected this could happen. Disney knew there were gators or a high chance of there being gators there. Nebraska folk probably didn't at all. I'm from cali and I would have never ever thought of that. I don't know their feeding behavior, I don't know how prevalent they are around there. It's extremely shocking to me. I would have never guessed that there was a chance a gator would grab my baby on that beach, because of my ignorance of gators and their behaviors and also because it's a private beach from what I understand, for the resort. I would have assumed Disney did some magic and somehow made it inhospitable to gators. I'm positive that sounds crazy to Florida folk but I don't get out of this state much.

It's one thing to say no swimming. But they did leave out a very very important part in that sign. And if they did so because it sounded "too scary" then they are gonna have to dig deep imo.

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[GeeEm]

I am so thankful they were able to recover his little body and he was intact]

It is very common for an alligator to bite down on their prey in a grip like no other and then drag them to the bottom of the water holding them there until they drown. There would be no way the father could have wrestled his son away from the alligator. They have a jaw grip/pressure that is thousands of pounds per square inch.

I just read he was found about 10 feet from the water's edge in about 6 feet of water. He most likely dropped little Lane due to the father hitting him, and all of the thrashing around the father was trying to do to find him. Although some alligators will drown their prey first and will come back later to actually consume them. (So sorry to write that part but its true)

I cant begin to imagine the pain and suffering his parents are going through. This was suppose to be the happiest of times where wonderful memories are made that will last a lifetime Instead they have lost their son within seconds

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/15/us/alligator-attacks-child-disney-florida/

I'm with you all the way with this tragedy. My prayers are with the Graves family. RIP Lane

I couldn't sleep last night due to all the sadness in Florida, my heart is still breaking for the victims of the massacre.

I watched Dr Drew and one of the witnesses said it was something he won't forget.

GRAPHIC:
The gator was probably waiting for decomposing of the body per Jeff Corwin.

 

[Wyle_E_Coyote]

Disney does take precautions against alligators, though. They regularly have people go through and make sure there are none on their property, and if there are, they fish them out immediately. However, sometimes an alligator does get through, because the water is their natural habitat and they can't prevent every single one from coming through. They don't have a 24/7 alligator patrol.

They shouldn't have to block off every body of water with a fence because of the one-in-a-million chance that somebody might be attacked by an alligator, something that had never happened before in over 70 years of operation. Especially when they already had a "NO SWIMMING" sign.

Well, Disney's alligator catchers need some more training, because there were five found in just a few hours last night.

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[LinasK]

Interesting. I feel such sadness for this accident & the family must be beyond distraught.

What I was thinking about is what variables lie in determining common sense & what is reasonable due to location.

For instance, if this death of this toddler went to court (lawsuit) in Kansas with a jury of their peers, oh boy, I bet Disney would be at fault & sued. Look at the reverse: if this death of this toddler went to court in Florida with a jury of their peers, oh boy, I bet Disney gets off the hook.

Floridians know that Florida is a beautiful state with a unique topography, weather, wildlife. I live here & my area is considered the Lightening Capitol of the World. Sharks migrate in the intracoastal during mating season which is in shocking numbers. At times I have snakes & iguanas in my garage. We have mosquitos with Zika virus. There's not enough signs & fences to protect everyone from nature. Adults must be aware of their surroundings. Risks are everywhere. I rarely rely on signage to know my risks.

RIP lil' guy

Moo

See, that's just it. Locals from Orlando and other parts of Florida know that there are gators surrounding Disney World. Disneyland has no such gator issues (Disneyland's issues are measles and dangerous rides). So tourists from out of state and other countries who come to Disney World may well not know about the dangers of gators in the waterways surrounding the park. Disney touts itself as " the happiest place on Earth". With that comes an expectation of safety. It happened on Disney owned property. Disney knowingly had an obligation to have better signage warning it's customers of the dangers rather than the tiny little "no swimming" signs. I think Disney should have to pay out major money. And I say that as having made several trips/spent lots of money at Disneyland in my lifetime.

 

[animlzrule]

Being a Californian who has set foot in Florida exactly once, and that was to board a cruise ship- I know in theory that gators exist in Florida. I thought swamps. I did not know that Disney World was built next to a lagoon where gators swim!!!

Well, sure it is. Alligators roam, and will inhabit any body of water they find. And the lagoon is a rather large body of water. There's no way to keep alligators out of the area; it's their native territory. I can't fathom ever going near that water. Aside from the alligators, the water is filthy, and apparently much of the construction equipment used to dig the waterways, and refuse from the building of Disney, is sunk in the lagoon in various places. I've never seen anybody venturing near the water line when we've been there. It's made clear that the "beaches" are are not for recreation in the traditional sense.

 

[Wyle_E_Coyote]

I'm a little rusty but there is a term in law that refers to whether they could have expected this could happen. Disney knew there were gators or a high chance of there being gators there.

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Snipped for focus

Reasonably foreseeable.

Which it was.

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[GeeEm]

https://www.google.com/amp/heavy.co...ragedy-floridian-nebraska/amp/?client=safari#

Nancy Grace is showing pictures of her and the twins on a platoon boat, she said she spotted a gator and asked to go back to shore.

She is in tears.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Right....we are in full agreement.

I live in Florida so here's how we think: we see a sign that says no swimming at night & we look out at a murky pond or swamp-- trust me we don't go there! If you're from Nebraska maybe you're just thinking the warning sign just means that lifeguards aren't on duty at night? Maybe?

What is considered a reasonable risk varies regionally. And that could come into play down the road if there is a lawsuit or trial depending where the jury pool is from.

I feel horrible for the parents because they were from a different region & wouldn't know. So tragic.

See, that's just it. Locals from Orlando and other parts of Florida know that there are gators surrounding Disney World. Disneyland has no such issues. So tourists from out of state and other countries who come to Disney World may well not know about the dangers of gators in the waterways surrounding the park. Disney touts itself as " the happiest place on Earth". With that comes an expectation of safety. It happened on Disney owned property. Disney knowingly had an obligation to have better signage warning it's customers of the dangers rather than the tiny little "no swimming" signs. I think Disney should have to pay out major money. And I say that as having made several trips/spent lots of money at Disneyland in my lifetime.

 

[Wyle_E_Coyote]

Right....we are in full agreement.

I live in Florida so here's how we think: we see a sign that says no swimming at night & we look out at a murky pond or swamp-- trust me we don't go there! If you're from Nebraska maybe you're just thinking the warning sign just means that lifeguards aren't on duty at night? Maybe?

What is considered a reasonable risk varies regionally. And that could come into play down the road if there is a lawsuit or trial depending where the jury pool is from.

I feel horrible for the parents because they were from a different region & wouldn't know. So tragic.

Not just regionally... Disney gets visitors from all over the world. Would tourists from Finland or Morocco or Greece know to watch for alligators?

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[sonjay]

See, that's just it. Locals from Orlando and other parts of Florida know that there are gators surrounding Disney World. Disneyland has no such gator issues (Disneyland's issues are measles and dangerous rides). So tourists from out of state and other countries who come to Disney World may well not know about the dangers of gators in the waterways surrounding the park. Disney touts itself as " the happiest place on Earth". With that comes an expectation of safety. It happened on Disney owned property. Disney knowingly had an obligation to have better signage warning it's customers of the dangers rather than the tiny little "no swimming" signs. I think Disney should have to pay out major money. And I say that as having made several trips/spent lots of money at Disneyland in my lifetime.

BBM. I don't know anything about Disneyland's dangerous rides. (I was only there once, many many years ago.) But IIRC, the measles risk is due to all the anti-vaxxer Americans on the left coast, plus all the tourists from countries where vaccinations aren't as common.

Should Disneyland put up signs warning people about the risk of measles? Is that a reasonably foreseeable risk that Disneyland should warn people about? Is Disneyland negligent if they don't warn people about the measles risk?