FL - Mass Shooting at Pulse Nightclub, Orlando 12 June 2016 #5

Status
Not open for further replies.
  • #101
Hello all. This is such a horrific story; I admit I have not read all posts. You can only take this a little at a time. I have a couple of questions, maybe someone here can answer, or maybe they have been already answered, and someone can point me in the direction. I am in no way indication any victims are responsible for anything that happened in that nightclub. I am just wondering, when the shooter went in the bathroom, why didn't someone unlock the door that he allegedly locked. Also, what was happening in the club proper while the shooter was in the bathroom; did people escape at that time? In what area of the club was he holding hostages? All of the club-goers could not have been in front of the shooter at all times; I am wondering why one or more did not give each other some kind of eye contact and jump him, or hit him over the head with a chair, bottle, anything? He couldn't possibly see everyone at once. These are just things I haven been pondering. I am sure during the chaos, it must have been difficult to have a cohesive thought. I was once at a carnival, where a few men came in convertibles, and just began shooting randomly. It was beyond one of the most frightening things I have ever been present at. Everyone panicked; people were running on top of each other, and no one knew where to go. The man I was with wanted to go in the bathroom, but I said, "no, we are totally at his mercy if he decides to come in here, or even open the door." We eventually ran into a large field, and laid down, and I ended up with the worst case of poison ivy ever. However, that was the best possible alternative at the time. I can only imagine the panic of these poor people, who only wanted to go out for a night of fun.

Thanks to all, for all of the great comments and thoughts. I would appreciate it if anyone has any insight into my questions. And, thank you Websleuth owner, Tricia, for providing us these great forums, which are more up-to-date than the news; I come here first when anything is happening because I know I will get the latest and best coverage from fellow members. Katt

You may find this comprehensive timeline from the Orlando Sentinel helpful:

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...se-nightclub-shooting-timeline-htmlstory.html

Some were able to get clear of the building before and after he retreated to the restrooms. Others were not as fortunate and were shot as they tried to get out of his range.

Law enforcement officers were able to get some out of the building at different times before the breech of the restroom walls and the final gun battle with OM.

In one instance an officer had to literally drag a severely wounded man out of the club to get him out of harms way.

Many were too severely injured to move themselves out of his range.

One woman, Amanda Alvear, is reported to have initially gotten herself clear, but went back in to get her best friend out. They were both killed.

All of the particulars of that horrible night are still coming into the light. As they do some form is becoming somewhat discernible amongst the horror.
 
  • #102
It now sounds like some of the victims might have actually been killed by the police so maybe this won't actually be America's worst mass shooting; not as far as the criminal at least.
 
  • #103
moo only. It so fits. I found the asking about African Americans in the bathroom telling. . He asked if there are any Africian Americans in the bathroom . He had to let them know, comfort them , that he would not hurt them, for who they were.

He had lived his entire existance, being hated for who he was. He felt a need IMO, to let AA know, I know what you have lived through, me too -Unlike so many people in my existance, I will not wound you. I will offer you love and safety. I will not hurt you ,like the world has me .

I need to provide you with comfort I never experinced in my life.

I understand your experience, I have lived it ....... I NEED you to know this

moooo

Someone who knew him, can't remember if it was a former classmate or co-worker, described him as a racist. I thought he might have been trying to call them out of the stalls, thinking they might be safe then just shoot them. If he was after gays, I doubt he cared what color or religion they were.
 
  • #104
I have been avoiding this horrible act and it's time I said something.
Prayers to all the victims who survived and I pray everyone has a safe and speedy recovery.
Prayers to all the victims families and I am so sorry this evil act was committed on your friends, loved ones and our country. I pray for healing of hearts and peace.
Y'all will never be forgotten and y'all will live in my heart forever.

Godspeed Brenda McCool
Godspeed Franky Velazquez
Godspeed Tevin Crosby
Godspeed KJ Morris
Godspeed Amanda Alvear
Godspeed Mercedez Florez
Godspeed Eddie Justice
Godspeed Akyara Murray
Godspeed Shane Tomlinson
Godspeed Juan Guerrero
Godspeed Drew Leinonen
Godspeed Jean Perez
Godspeed Luis Wilson-Leon
Godspeed Luis Vielma
Godspeed Martin Torres
Godspeed Omar Capo
Godspeed Deonka Drayton
Godspeed Joel Paniagua
Godspeed Jason Josaphat
Godspeed Anthony Disla
Godspeed Peter Cruz
Godspeed Eric Rivera
Godspeed Juan Martinez
Godspeed Leroy Fernandez
Godspeed Xavier Rosaldo
Godspeed Cory Connell
Godspeed Jerald Wright
Godspeed Christopher Sanfeliz
Godspeed Javier Reyes
Godspeed Edward Sotomayor
Godspeed Darryl Burt
Godspeed Enrique Rios
Godspeed Geraldo Jimenez
Godspeed Gilberto Menendez
Godspeed Juan Valazquez
Godspeed Luis Conde
Godspeed Yilmary Solivan
Godspeed Jonathan Vega
Godspeed Miguel Honorato
Godspeed Oscar Montero
Godspeed Simon Fernandez
Godspeed Stanley Almodovar
Godspeed Jean Rodriguez
Godspeed Antonino Brown
Godspeed Angel Padro
Godspeed Alejandro Martinez
Godspeed Frankie Hernandez
Godspeed Paul Henry
Godspeed Rodolfo Ayala-Ayala
 
  • #105
Someone who knew him, can't remember if it was a former classmate or co-worker, described him as a racist. I thought he might have been trying to call them out of the stalls, thinking they might be safe then just shoot them. If he was after gays, I doubt he cared what color or religion they were.

To be fair, he could have been racist toward whites, or racist against anyone who wasn't of his own race, or anyone who wasn't his own race or black. Racism can be found going in all directions.
 
  • #106
Think about how OM was asking LE if they did not know who he was and what he had done. How he had searched the net for Orlando shootings,

Even as a kid, he was screaming for attention His school behavior says that loud and clear.

Kids from negative situations want attention and if they do not get positive, they will go for negative.

We have to turn this around . Not giving the names of his honored ones is one step. No recognition.

BBM. I have differing views of this than you. This is said with all respect to you and your views.

Not letting victims name their attacker is demeaning, demoralizing and wrong. It makes me think of someone who has been raped and then not listened to, maybe just acknowledging that yes they were raped, but we don't want to know who it was or why it happened. It's not important.

It's important to the victim to be able to put names and faces and the true facts out there.

Not naming the enemy and not acknowledging why the enemy did it is wrong on many levels ....for one thing it is like an ostrich hiding it's head in the sand. If I can't see it, it's not real. It IS real, and it's still there even if you can't see it now that your head is in the sand. Actually, it makes it much easier to chop off that ostrich's head now. It doesn't change anything if you hold your hands over your ears chanting I can't hear I can't hear you you over and over again. You many NOT hear what they said, but it was still said. Denying it and not naming it does not change what it really is.

Another problem I have with this is I don't need the government to decide what I should know and think. I'm fairly well educated, can read all of the facts and then reach conclusions of my own. I don't have to be told what to think, or just be fed someone else's opinions. Have you read Fahrenheit 451? I had to read it in college. It's a novel about the future in which books are illegal to own. The government decided that books are dangerous because then people learn about things they don't want them to know, and the government wanted to control what people learned and thought. Fahrenheit 451 is the temperature at which paper burns. Anyway..... today when I watched that press conference I thought about that book. I felt manipulated. I thought about how once upon a time journalists and anchors were impartial and unbiased and actually gave you ALL of the information so you could draw your own conclusions, and not skew and slant things so you only hear what they want you to hear.

And lastly, I don't think that the enemy is downtrodden and feeling cheated by a country that won't utter those words, or the fact that the 911 calls were redacted. On the contrary, I think they love it. It probably confirms their belief we are weak, inferior, scared and that is not going to turn things around. I think they are laughing at us and our government. In fact, if I were in a group of people that were terrorizing and killing another group, and I knew that the group I was doing this to knew it was us and why we did it and yet wouldn't name us or our reasons or really try to stop us, and actually went to far as to say oh it's just road rage or work violence or a hate crime, I think I would be feeling powerful, invincible and unstoppable and I would be thinking wow what weaklings.

This is not a kid that wants attention and because they didn't get any they are going for negative attention. Our president refusing to let anyone say radical Islamism is not going to make them pack up their toys and go home. IMO.

So exactly how, in your opinion, are we going to turn this around by our president, government and people refusing to admit who this enemy is, and why the shooter did what he did? In all respect. I am curious.
 
  • #107
To be fair, he could have been racist toward whites, or racist against anyone who wasn't of his own race, or anyone who wasn't his own race or black. Racism can be found going in all directions.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/or...t-motivated-orlando-nightclub-shooter-n590496

Mateen "always referred to every other race, religion, gender in a derogatory way," Gilroy added. "He did not like black people at all. That was mentioned once or twice, but more so was women. He did not like women at all. He did like women in a sexual way, but he did not respect them."
 
  • #108
  • #109
I wonder if the redaction was publicized now because special forces are prepared to take this guy out like they did with bin Laden.

I imagine it may be known where this guy is. And I will not honor him with writing his name.
 
  • #110
BBM. I have differing views of this than you. This is said with all respect to you and your views.

Not letting victims name their attacker is demeaning, demoralizing and wrong. It makes me think of someone who has been raped and then not listened to, maybe just acknowledging that yes they were raped, but we don't want to know who it was or why it happened. It's not important.

It's important to the victim to be able to put names and faces and the true facts out there.

Not naming the enemy and not acknowledging why the enemy did it is wrong on many levels ....for one thing it is like an ostrich hiding it's head in the sand. If I can't see it, it's not real. It IS real, and it's still there even if you can't see it now that your head is in the sand. Actually, it makes it much easier to chop off that ostrich's head now. It doesn't change anything if you hold your hands over your ears chanting I can't hear I can't hear you you over and over again. You many NOT hear what they said, but it was still said. Denying it and not naming it does not change what it really is.

Another problem I have with this is I don't need the government to decide what I should know and think. I'm fairly well educated, can read all of the facts and then reach conclusions of my own. I don't have to be told what to think, or just be fed someone else's opinions. Have you read Fahrenheit 451? I had to read it in college. It's a novel about the future in which books are illegal to own. The government decided that books are dangerous because then people learn about things they don't want them to know, and the government wanted to control what people learned and thought. Fahrenheit 451 is the temperature at which paper burns. Anyway..... today when I watched that press conference I thought about that book. I felt manipulated. I thought about how once upon a time journalists and anchors were impartial and unbiased and actually gave you ALL of the information so you could draw your own conclusions, and not skew and slant things so you only hear what they want you to hear.

And lastly, I don't think that the enemy is downtrodden and feeling cheated by a country that won't utter those words, or the fact that the 911 calls were redacted. On the contrary, I think they love it. It probably confirms their belief we are weak, inferior, scared and that is not going to turn things around. I think they are laughing at us and our government. In fact, if I were in a group of people that were terrorizing and killing another group, and I knew that the group I was doing this to knew it was us and why we did it and yet wouldn't name us or our reasons or really try to stop us, and actually went to far as to say oh it's just road rage or work violence or a hate crime, I think I would be feeling powerful, invincible and unstoppable and I would be thinking wow what weaklings.

This is not a kid that wants attention and because they didn't get any they are going for negative attention. Our president refusing to let anyone say radical Islamism is not going to make them pack up their toys and go home. IMO.

So exactly how, in your opinion, are we going to turn this around by our president, government and people refusing to admit who this enemy is, and why the shooter did what he did? In all respect. I am curious.

I don't think I said they are downtrodden Whatever.

I am only going by what many have called for in the past and that is to not announce who these shooters are. All mass shooters.

There are many articles written about this. We know the Columbine shooters have been heroes to some. And I wonder if that theatre shooter down south got the idea from the Colorado shooter.

It sure seems like the Orlando shooter wanted attention. FB and texting in the middle of all of this? Calling 911?

I think the Manson killers wanted to do more for their revered leader. One even asked to go on the next kill.

To me, if we print the name of the guy who is the inspiration, that gives him validation, If you are no name, you don't even count.

Think of how you feel and you are somewhere and you are not introduced to anyone? It makes you feel like a non entity.
 
  • #111
I wonder if the redaction was publicized now because special forces are prepared to take this guy out like they did with bin Laden.

I imagine it may be known where this guy is. And I will not honor him with writing his name.

Not sure, but in the article he talks about the bombing in Paris, because he supposedly had explosives in a vehicle and "more were to come".

JMO I don't see anything happening with our government. FWIW

All is so sad 😭
 
  • #112
"Mateen asked if there were African-Americans in the stall. One man said there were six or seven.

“I don’t have a problem with black people,” Mateen said, according to Carter. “This is about my country. You guys have suffered enough.”

http://fox43.com/2016/06/14/pa-shooting-victim-orlando-gunman-tried-to-spare-black-people/

BBM

This is about my country. Kind of says it all. He didn't identify with America. This was about HIS country. He wasn't American in his heart, mind and soul.
 
  • #113
Transcript release may escalate fight to release Mateen’s 911 call

~ Media outlets have requested 911 calls from Pulse shooting
~ City of Orlando has said no
~ Some advocates say that’s a violation of public records laws and creates unnecessary doubt


Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/article84915717.html#storylink=cpy

“Who was Omar Mateen? What happened inside Pulse nightclub during a shooting that left 49 people dead, not including Mateen himself?

City, state and federal officials aren’t helping the public answer that question.

The city of Orlando has so far refused to release 911 tapes from the shooter, citing several exemptions that some public records experts say don’t hold up to scrutiny.

Journalists have also battled with county and state agencies over Mateen’s school records, his brief stint as a a Florida Department of Corrections officer, and emergency calls from his family home that date to the turn of the millennium.

“As a rule, when government clamps down on access to information, it causes more questions and more concerns than if they went ahead and released the information,” said Barbara Petersen, president of the St. Petersburg-based First Amendment Foundation. “Why are they holding onto these records when they don’t have to? It’s creating doubt.”​

More...
 
  • #114
Me too. With the house for 10 dollars and now this. Whoever got the jewelry surely would have asked him why all of a sudden such an expensive gift. The rental car also seems like maybe was done to try to protect the other vehicle. The list is getting longer with things he did that seem to imply he knew he was not going to make it out alive.

I really have to wonder how many people that he knew closely may have known of his plans and did nothing to warn anyone.

It will be tough to prove prior knowledge. One thing that may help LE see if anyone had any prior knowledge is by getting cell phone records and text messages from SM. It may uncover a lot.
BBM
Nope, not at all. I would assume his wife and/or mother accepted the gifts knowing that he was going to do what he did, and that is what further ensured their silence. Maybe they wanted things to sell after he died, who knows.
If OM and law enforcement used the same or similar caliber ammunition, preliminary autopsy results would not be definitive.

MEs are not qualified to make those determinations. For him to speculate publicly based upon the autopsy findings would be irresponsible, IMO.



http://wtop.com/national/2016/06/fbi-team-from-quantico-to-reconstruct-orlando-shooting-scene/

Additionally, it seems likely (due to velocity) that some of the bullets may have passed through some of the bodies, potentially leaving only fragments for the medical examinations to recover.

The size of entrance and exit wounds can give some indication as to the caliber, but cannot match those wounds to a particular gun.

There are literally many moving parts involved in a mass shooting. Reconstruction of the crime scenes take a considerable amount of time.
BBM
ITA. I'm also not sure why people are so concerned with victims dying or being further injured by police. I'm pretty sure as OM and the hostages were emerging from the hole in the wall police were checking for a visible gun and making sure the person was OM before firing. These are trained professionals, not random confused people attempting a rescue. They knew what to look for, they are not just going to shoot right away at anything appearing in that hole. They don't shoot unless they know they are going to hit their intended target.

It is always possible in stand-offs that innocent people will be injured by police, but I think it's unlikely a huge number were victims of friendly fire in this case.

My question would be this -- why are people so concerned about the friendly fire aspect of this case when so far we've got zero evidence of it? Would it be less painful for a family that has lost a loved one in the Pulse tragedy to know they were shot four times by Mateen and one time by friendly fire? Their family member would still be deceased due to the Pulse shooting. If friendly fire was an issue, it will come out eventually. I'm going to save all my outrage for the actual shooter that committed this evil crime, not the ones that may or may not have accidentally injured someone while they attempted to stop the deadliest mass shooter in US history.

OT, but how do you submit missing or unidentified here? I posted in the questions section but nobody ever replied. Thanks to anyone that can answer.
 
  • #115
Not sure, but in the article he talks about the bombing in Paris, because he supposedly had explosives in a vehicle and "more were to come".

JMO I don't see anything happening with our government. FWIW

All is so sad ��

Even though bin Laden was taken out?
 
  • #116
"Mateen asked if there were African-Americans in the stall. One man said there were six or seven.

“I don’t have a problem with black people,” Mateen said, according to Carter. “This is about my country. You guys have suffered enough.”

http://fox43.com/2016/06/14/pa-shooting-victim-orlando-gunman-tried-to-spare-black-people/

BBM

This is about my country. Kind of says it all. He didn't identify with America. This was about HIS country. He wasn't American in his heart, mind and soul.

Agree 110%. Why's this so hard to comprehend when he states and it's on tape? He massacred innocent people. This wasn't about race or gays it was about ISIS and this was planned for a long time. JMO
 
  • #117
I don't think I said they are downtrodden Whatever.

I am only going by what many have called for in the past and that is to not announce who these shooters are. All mass shooters.

There are many articles written about this. We know the Columbine shooters have been heroes to some. And I wonder if that theatre shooter down south got the idea from the Colorado shooter.

It sure seems like the Orlando shooter wanted attention. FB and texting in the middle of all of this? Calling 911?

I think the Manson killers wanted to do more for their revered leader. One even asked to go on the next kill.

To me, if we print the name of the guy who is the inspiration, that gives him validation, If you are no name, you don't even count.

Think of how you feel and you are somewhere and you are not introduced to anyone? It makes you feel like a non entity.

What about the victims? What about the importance of them being able to identify and name their attackers?

What about the seriousness of facts being redacted, edited, changed? That is dangerous business. That is a slippery slope to news being altered control of what the public knows and doesn't know and then we don't receive the true facts. That leads to....I will stop there. I don't want anyone else deciding what I know, what I think.... and yes, we do need to announce what they are, because they ARE. Not announcing doesn't change anything. Knowledge is POWER, but ignorance.... well that is something else.

<modsnip>

The truth does matter. The truth always matters, no matter if the perpetrator feels glee or whatever by hearing his name.
 
  • #118
Even though bin Laden was taken out?

I don't see Obama going to war...for my reasons that I don't think I can post due to TOS

JMO
 
  • #119
"Mateen asked if there were African-Americans in the stall. One man said there were six or seven.

&#8220;I don&#8217;t have a problem with black people,&#8221; Mateen said, according to Carter. &#8220;This is about my country. You guys have suffered enough.&#8221;

http://fox43.com/2016/06/14/pa-shooting-victim-orlando-gunman-tried-to-spare-black-people/

BBM

This is about my country. Kind of says it all. He didn't identify with America. This was about HIS country. He wasn't American in his heart, mind and soul.

I no longer live in the US but I refer to where I live now as my country. But I do not feel it in my heart as I do not speak the language, will never be part of the culture, and I am white and my " country" is not white. People are totally wonderful to us. And I feel a real connection with it although I will never be a real part of it.

So I feel you can care about more than one place.

I think he was a total mess, but people in the Middle East have parents, children, etc. They have a lot of feelings about having their children killed and maimed and mothers and fathers, etc destroyed. Just as we feel anger and loss, they do as well.

I don't think OM really cared about people at all because he was violent to all kinds of people. So I doubt that " his country" meant anything to him.

He suffered at the hands of his parents and his classmates. Do not think I am excusing him. But when are we going to stop treating children the way we do? Monsters are created.
 
  • #120
I don't see Obama going to war...for my reasons that I don't think I can post due to TOS

JMO

Obama will not go to war, He will not be on the lines. He will not come back maimed or commit suicide. I do not think we want to continue sending off kids to be destroyed.

But he can work on taking out the guy like it was with bin Laden
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
99
Guests online
1,455
Total visitors
1,554

Forum statistics

Threads
632,760
Messages
18,631,355
Members
243,283
Latest member
emilyc1224
Back
Top