FL - Michelle Mishcon, 53, & John Stevens, 59, brutally murdered, Tequesta, 15 Aug 2016 - #2

[PositiveLight]

I still feel like he was suffering from some form of mental illness (grandios thoughts). I feel he was on steroids and possibly in roid rage (severe agitation), ingested flakka (self medicating), dehydrated drank a poison accidentally in someones garage before reaching victims home. I feel the primary reason for the attack was flakka and mental illness. I wonder if he was on any prescription meds too? Could be simple depression meds but!... some people react terribly to meds. Or it could have been mixing his meds with street drugs etc. Endless possibilities. I don't think the oil he ingested caused the throat damage. I think a caustic fluid did. Something to think about too....-
personal story: a while ago a man ingested weed killer or bug killer (forget which one) and then proceeded to check himself into the ER. Then he began to throw up. The fumes from his vomit was so horrible and dangerous several nurses taking care of him collapsed and ended up on vents themselves. He died and a nurse almost died. She spent about 2 months in hospital. Just throwing that out there.
If he ingested a poison he more than likely had it in his system long enough to do permanent damage. Will he survive? Maybe in a vegetative state with the intelligence of a child. In other words he will probably never be able to remember or explain his actions. I don't wish this on anyone mind you but that is what I see happening if he does survive. The ONE thing he has on his side is he is young. Sometimes that plays a part in recovery. But if he has damaged his organs over a period of time with drug use, then it might not help.
Can someone clear up a question I have? What car was blood found in? The husband's car?

 

[glf]

I think when athletes take steroids, they are usually injectable from what I understand. No, not fibromyalgia. I have a twisted pelvis, three pinched nerves in my right leg, and one in the left leg. Plus, add a little good ole arthritis to the mixture!
I wish police would give a medical update, but either they have nothing more to add than what has been stated by the family. Or, since there has not been an official arrest, their hands may be tied for the time being. I don't know enough about R's and R's where police work is concerned, plus, I'm in a different state, and laws vary.

 

[Curious Me]

As I said yesterday in one of my posts, Dr.P jumped right to diagnosing by stating there were examples of religiosity in how WH described his son's "psychotic break". I have yet to hear real examples of religiosity in this case, but I have heard from AH himself a lot about steroids and not doing them (anymore).

No surprise, but Dr.P interview style was all over the place, and he jumps right to an arm chair diagnosis without going very deep at all. The father wants to dismiss his son using steroids that could have triggered some of his mental disturbances, but Dr.P didn't question further. AH was posting those videos for five months, but had Dad seen those videos before?

I'm sorry, but I can't really trust all of what WH has to say. He tends to ignore possibilities. He makes it sound like his son was almost a basket case, and yet after two weeks of strange, maybe longer, and that long walk father and son took that day, maybe if I believe it, the father was going to have a casual conversation with a psychologist friend, but first let's try to shape up and go out for dinner. Just saying, AH didn't have an appt. for a medical workup or any professional mental help. If these crimes hadn't happened, I wonder how long it would've been before someone got AH to a doctor? All MOO.

 

[glf]

Somebody mentioned hair follicle testing for drugs. I know use of pot and use of meth can show up for 90 days. I would tend to believe that since flakka is a derivative of pot, it would also be detected for 90 days. However, it might just show up as pot. When heroin is metabolized, the end product shows up in a urine sample as morphine. I always wondered how the docs knew if the person was actually using heroin and not morphine without the person's admission. But that's another $64,000.00 question!

 

[Jax49]

I'm confused. I thought FLAKKA was derived from the khat plant.

Flakka is produced from a compound known as alpha-PVP, synthetically derived and made from an amphetamine-like derivative of the drug, cathinone.
The khat plant, which grows in parts of the Middle East as well as Somalia, is the source of cathinones. The leaves of the plant are often chewed to achieve euphoria or a high.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertg...new-drug-you-need-to-know-about/#6c34537220bf

 

[glf]

I'm confused. I thought FLAKKA was derived from the khat plant.



http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertg...new-drug-you-need-to-know-about/#6c34537220bf

We were discussing this in another case. I will go back and do some reading again to make sure I'm not confused. Like somebody stated a page or so back, with all the new names for things, we cannot tell if people know what they are taking!

 

[glf]

Sorry about being misleading... I was getting FLAKKA confused with SHATTER! Shatter is a derivative of marijuana.

 

[TTF14]

I was talking to a friend about this case and they told me of another case (someone they know) where the young man (same age) had a similar freak out, tried to kill a family member before ultimately running outside and killing himself. He'd done LSD six months prior.

 

[Vail]

Somebody mentioned hair follicle testing for drugs. I know use of pot and use of meth can show up for 90 days. I would tend to believe that since flakka is a derivative of pot, it would also be detected for 90 days. However, it might just show up as pot. When heroin is metabolized, the end product shows up in a urine sample as morphine. I always wondered how the docs knew if the person was actually using heroin and not morphine without the person's admission. But that's another $64,000.00 question!

Flakka has absolutely nothing to do with marijuana. It is a synthetic drug with no molecular similarities. I think you are confusing it with Spice, which is another synthetic that is made to look like marijuana (but which also does not share chemical similarities with alpha-pvp or "flakka"). Flakka can be detected in blood tests. Hair tests are typically done to determine duration or past use of opioids like heroin but the full list includes Cocaine, Mairjuana, Opiates, Meth, MDMA and PCP

 

[glf]

Flakka has absolutely nothing to do with marijuana. It is a synthetic drug with no molecular similarities. I think you are confusing it with Spice, which is another synthetic that is made to look like marijuana (but which also does not share chemical similarities with alpha-pvp or "flakka"). Flakka can be detected in blood tests. Hair tests are typically done to determine duration or past use of opioids like heroin but the full list includes Cocaine, Mairjuana, Opiates, Meth, MDMA and PCP

Thanks, but you mentioned SPICE, something else I had not heard of! Shatter is considered "oil" from pot, supposed to be very concentrated compared to smoking pot. I guess this spice you talked about is a form of pot that is also smoked?

 

[CARIIS]

I still feel like he was suffering from some form of mental illness (grandios thoughts). I feel he was on steroids and possibly in roid rage (severe agitation), ingested flakka (self medicating), dehydrated drank a poison accidentally in someones garage before reaching victims home. I feel the primary reason for the attack was flakka and mental illness. I wonder if he was on any prescription meds too? Could be simple depression meds but!... some people react terribly to meds. Or it could have been mixing his meds with street drugs etc. Endless possibilities. I don't think the oil he ingested caused the throat damage. I think a caustic fluid did. Something to think about too....-
personal story: a while ago a man ingested weed killer or bug killer (forget which one) and then proceeded to check himself into the ER. Then he began to throw up. The fumes from his vomit was so horrible and dangerous several nurses taking care of him collapsed and ended up on vents themselves. He died and a nurse almost died. She spent about 2 months in hospital. Just throwing that out there.
If he ingested a poison he more than likely had it in his system long enough to do permanent damage. Will he survive? Maybe in a vegetative state with the intelligence of a child. In other words he will probably never be able to remember or explain his actions. I don't wish this on anyone mind you but that is what I see happening if he does survive. The ONE thing he has on his side is he is young. Sometimes that plays a part in recovery. But if he has damaged his organs over a period of time with drug use, then it might not help.
Can someone clear up a question I have? What car was blood found in? The husband's car?

Yes, the husbands. and on the hood. Intially they made it sound as if both were in the garrage. Not so. First thread posted a bunch of pics - there were cleaners (not forensics) people "cleaning" his car.

Then the next press conf he acknoledged that there was blood inside the males car and it matched his. Trying to find the press conf but I dont really know which one to look for.
It has made me ponder if he ran out for some beer or something, she was alone, he went in and........

Deputies encountered Harrouff “biting off the face of Stevens” in the driveway of the couple’s home around 9:20 p.m

The nieghbor only heard and talked about a female.

Its almost more logical :

They go out side
Need more beer
He makes beer run
She alone outside in garage
Austin passes by garage
He decide to attack a single woman alone (rape attempt- clothes off- shorts mystery?)
Austin enters
Huge fight begains
Good guy hears woman screaming
Goes to help
Sees no male at all? (makes no sense - if husband there why wouldn't the neieghbor have seen him? The way it is now their was no male anywhere other than Austin, good guy, based on good guys call
Has to flee
Wife deceased
Austin alone in garage and thirsty
Voices in head louder
grabs anything to drink
Poisen starts to kick in
He is now more out of his mind
His mouth throat and gut start to burn
Poisen continues ravaging his mind and body
Husband drives into driveway
Sees a crazy man, maybe, in his boxers-- blood all over his garage
Heads in to help his wife
AUstin lunges at husband while he is getting out of his car
He is wild , out of control, more and more poisen racing through his his bloodstream- into brain
his mouth is so hot burning
Starts eating flesh - thinks flesh/blood might cool his raging mouth, get the taste out of poisen out of his mouth, and quench insatiable thrist
starts making gutteral noises to "cough up" /reflex action / body trying to clear throat? (that would help understand him making a clear sentance AFTER
Continues eating his face to cool his mouth
Cops aririve and see him in the driveway eating and growling etc


It expalins the blood in the car.

It explains no mention of a male, ever (seeing him hearing him nothing) in good guys call to 911

Explains why he was in driveway not in garage helping his wife--Austin came toward him as he pulled in driveway

Cops would have been able to tell by husbands blood trail from garage To driveway - LE never said husaband appeared to be "fleeing" from garage. Blood trail?

It makes more sense based on where he was found , what cops saw when they first pulled in.

moo possibility put it that way!
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[/FONT]http://heavy.com/news/2016/08/michelle-mishcon-stevens-john-stevens-iii-austin-harrouff-victims-state-university-face-biting-married-couple-murder-jupiter-florida-fraternity-photos-bath-salts-flakka-drugs/

 

[TDW59]

Thank you for the enthusiastic welcome and the priceless tip for following threads!

I think I first ran across WS when looking for news regarding Zahra Baker but disregarded it, then later began posting on Bob Harrod's threads. I am following Jenise Baker, Sierrah J & a case I have a personal stake in: Robert & Jessica Blanford & Destiney Warner, about child molestation. I read around but don't comment on several others.

Meh. I do tend to key on certain things and think of them as the tip of the iceberg, indicating greater significance. I do believe whatever AH said in the dental office was embarrassing to his father and he is still too embarrassed and uncomfortable to talk about it plainly.

The return call from the psychologist doesn't sound right to me. Wouldn't any therapist suggest Dad come in?

I don't like Dad very much but I still have great sympathy for him as the parent. Whatever misjudgments and selfishness, no one could have imagined this bizarre and horrific outcome. Altho in real life I am not so forgiving of those in a position of responsibility contributing to harm.

Like when I read/heard AH wasn't sleeping hardly at all for 2 weeks and was up pacing, I react oh Hello! crisis! But when I put those two together in google, I get a page full of dog stuff. lol. I don't find that red alert on the internet but I would still react the same way to it based on long personal experience and over a decade on a mental health forum and copious reading.

I don't think I have ever watched the Dr Phil show before and don't even know what he purports to be. I have read some of his stuff a long, long time ago and decided I didn't like him way back when, so have had no interest or awareness of him since and can't recall what exactly I based my opinion on. I put him in the pompous a$$ category and dismissed him. But it is the commonality of groupings of symptoms that identify mental disorders for diagnosis and treatment. He is profiling with what one would expect to see, maybe? That is why I took it as important that Dad said it was religious in nature.

I respect the wisdom and insight of this group very much.

Does anyone think it significant that AH has not had surgery on his GI tract? I ran across that yesterday as treatment for acute chemical poisoning.

I am very scattered today. It is a medication issue.
So, I am going to distract today by reading around.

 

[bluesneakers]

Hi CARIIS!

Your timeline makes a lot of sense to me, especially explaining why they were found in the driveway rather than the garage.

I think the flesh-eating might have been something delusional rather than him thinking it would quench his thirst or soothe his throat. I can't even begin to think what he might have been thinking or seeing though. Something dangerous? Something he needed to kill?

 

[CARIIS]

Hi CARIIS!

Your timeline makes a lot of sense to me, especially explaining why they were found in the driveway rather than the garage.

I think the flesh-eating might have been something delusional rather than him thinking it would quench his thirst or soothe his throat. I can't even begin to think what he might have been thinking or seeing though. Something dangerous? Something he needed to kill?

Hi Blue!

I think she was in garage,

 

[bluesneakers]

Hi Blue!

I think she was in garage,

Oh, by "they" I meant AH and JS were found in the driveway.

 

[CARIIS]

Thank you for the enthusiastic welcome and the priceless tip for following threads!

I think I first ran across WS when looking for news regarding Zahra Baker but disregarded it, then later began posting on Bob Harrod's threads. I am following Jenise Baker, Sierrah J & a case I have a personal stake in: Robert & Jessica Blanford & Destiney Warner, about child molestation. I read around but don't comment on several others.

Meh. I do tend to key on certain things and think of them as the tip of the iceberg, indicating greater significance. I do believe whatever AH said in the dental office was embarrassing to his father and he is still too embarrassed and uncomfortable to talk about it plainly.

The return call from the psychologist doesn't sound right to me. Wouldn't any therapist suggest Dad come in?

I don't like Dad very much but I still have great sympathy for him as the parent. Whatever misjudgments and selfishness, no one could have imagined this bizarre and horrific outcome. Altho in real life I am not so forgiving of those in a position of responsibility contributing to harm.

Like when I read/heard AH wasn't sleeping hardly at all for 2 weeks and was up pacing, I react oh Hello! crisis! But when I put those two together in google, I get a page full of dog stuff. lol. I don't find that red alert on the internet but I would still react the same way to it based on long personal experience and over a decade on a mental health forum and copious reading.

I don't think I have ever watched the Dr Phil show before and don't even know what he purports to be. I have read some of his stuff a long, long time ago and decided I didn't like him way back when, so have had no interest or awareness of him since and can't recall what exactly I based my opinion on. I put him in the pompous a$$ category and dismissed him. But it is the commonality of groupings of symptoms that identify mental disorders for diagnosis and treatment. He is profiling with what one would expect to see, maybe? That is why I took it as important that Dad said it was religious in nature.

I respect the wisdom and insight of this group very much.

Does anyone think it significant that AH has not had surgery on his GI tract? I ran across that yesterday as treatment for acute chemical poisoning.

I am very scattered today. It is a medication issue.
So, I am going to distract today by reading around.

Me either - on many levels . First it was never mentioned . Until a week later when interview taped. Dad was talking to press way before Phil. I would think that if he had actually contacted a pro he would make sure everyone knew it pretty early on.

But my real doubt comes from not being able to imagine a credentialed person , who is also supposedly a "friend" not stating very clearly to dad, that he is obligated by law , to contact LE and report concerns (Duty to Warn).

There is just no way on earth , I would not call LE. Symptoms being reported by dad way to serious. We never heard what the doc supposelly said back. SOrry to hear that?

Was he calling more out of guilt? Pretty clear very problematic symptoms. Just the pacing and insomnia alone would be alarming to me. Hearing that he is delsuionial really kinda tops of the cake for me . I dont think anyone was called, and after dad saw the publics reaction to noone in the family "doing" anything he kinda added it in, if you will.

He made it sound like it was a pretty non big deal call.


duty to warn pretty serious jazz in the field. .... its different all over the place, but ethiclly it is pretty clear any doubts /concerns contact LE . When did this call supposedly take place?

A duty to warn is a concept that arises in the law of torts in a number of circumstances, indicating that a party will be held liable for injuries caused to another, where the party had the opportunity to warn the other of a hazard and failed to do so.


I assume this call happended after the 4 hour walk in the woods wherein AUstin was talking about evil things all around him, and running for 3 miles- pretty clear we got some serious stuff escalating here.

And then the vanishing. I am bringing these up only in the context of if a call was placed, and dad told him these things, and the doc did not either tell dad he must call he will.

When I had to do stuff like this I always tried to get the pt to call from my office. Empower them, not get in a power control issue with them , while being assured that the call was made, and that LE knew the pt was with a professionial. Back then LE was even worse than they are now as it relates to mentla health.

When they knew a clinican was invovled they would respond. Back then a lot of times LE would just blow it off "another nut job who cares"

moo

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_warn

Duty to warn came from this sitution:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarasoff_v._Regents_of_the_University_of_California

Our biggies were:

Confidentiality/Privledged communication
Duty to warn
Sex with a client/or duel relationships

 

[flourish]

Thanks, but you mentioned SPICE, something else I had not heard of! Shatter is considered "oil" from pot, supposed to be very concentrated compared to smoking pot. I guess this spice you talked about is a form of pot that is also smoked?

Yes shatter aka dab aka honey oil is marijuana which has been processed. It's sold in marijuana dispensaries medicinally and recreational and is NOT spice or synthetic

 

[TDW59]

I would hope LE is looking at AH's electronics, what has AH been looking at, anything related to biting?

I just put in mental helath blackouts and this is what I got first, so very scary: http://bipolar.newlifeoutlook.com/bipolar-blackouts/

 

[TDW59]

http://www.schizophrenic.com/articles/schizophrenia/schizophrenic-break

 

[Curious Me]

Yes, the husbands. and on the hood. Intially they made it sound as if both were in the garrage. Not so. First thread posted a bunch of pics - there were cleaners (not forensics) people "cleaning" his car.

Then the next press conf he acknoledged that there was blood inside the males car and it matched his. Trying to find the press conf but I dont really know which one to look for.
It has made me ponder if he ran out for some beer or something, she was alone, he went in and........

Deputies encountered Harrouff “biting off the face of Stevens” in the driveway of the couple’s home around 9:20 p.m

The nieghbor only heard and talked about a female.

Its almost more logical :

They go out side
Need more beer
He makes beer run
She alone outside in garage
Austin passes by garage
He decide to attack a single woman alone (rape attempt- clothes off- shorts mystery?)
Austin enters
Huge fight begains
Good guy hears woman screaming
Goes to help
Sees no male at all? (makes no sense - if husband there why wouldn't the neieghbor have seen him? The way it is now their was no male anywhere other than Austin, good guy, based on good guys call
Has to flee
Wife deceased
Austin alone in garage and thirsty
Voices in head louder
grabs anything to drink
Poisen starts to kick in
He is now more out of his mind
His mouth throat and gut start to burn
Poisen continues ravaging his mind and body
Husband drives into driveway
Sees a crazy man, maybe, in his boxers-- blood all over his garage
Heads in to help his wife
AUstin lunges at husband while he is getting out of his car
He is wild , out of control, more and more poisen racing through his his bloodstream- into brain
his mouth is so hot burning
Starts eating flesh - thinks flesh/blood might cool his raging mouth, get the taste out of poisen out of his mouth, and quench insatiable thrist
starts making gutteral noises to "cough up" /reflex action / body trying to clear throat? (that would help understand him making a clear sentance AFTER
Continues eating his face to cool his mouth
Cops aririve and see him in the driveway eating and growling etc


It expalins the blood in the car.

It explains no mention of a male, ever (seeing him hearing him nothing) in good guys call to 911

Explains why he was in driveway not in garage helping his wife--Austin came toward him as he pulled in driveway

Cops would have been able to tell by husbands blood trail from garage To driveway - LE never said husaband appeared to be "fleeing" from garage. Blood trail?

It makes more sense based on where he was found , what cops saw when they first pulled in.

moo possibility put it that way!
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[/FONT]http://heavy.com/news/2016/08/michelle-mishcon-stevens-john-stevens-iii-austin-harrouff-victims-state-university-face-biting-married-couple-murder-jupiter-florida-fraternity-photos-bath-salts-flakka-drugs/

Thank You for taking on the uncomfortable task of trying to figure out how it might have gone down that night. We've questioned how Austin could attack both husband and wife at the same time, and I appreciate your thinking outside the box.

No wonder you've been concentrating on that blood found on and in the car! Great thinking! The scenario you laid out would explain much of what we know, and don't know yet. The good neighbor did only see and mention a woman laying there. It'd give Austin time to drink something in the garage if he had already attacked Michelle first, and John wasn't there yet. Do you think he fought off the neighbor also before he drank something in the garage? Why would LE hold back info if they knew John wasn't there when the attacks started?...don't they know we need more details.