FL FL - Michelle Parker, 33, Orlando, 17 Nov 2011 - #23

[Sparky]

Wow, haven't been here in a while. I was shocked to see this is more about defend Dale, then where is Michelle.

IMO Michelle is the victim, and Dale will remain the POI as stated by LE until they state otherwise.

 

[Thor]

There was a text to her boyfriend within a minute or two of that video that would likely have pinged off the tower closest to the condo. So it stands to reason that she was in the Hummer at that time. And that's the point, cases need to be looked at within reason. At what point did we get to the stage of absolute proof without any standard of reasonable assumption? If her boyfriend received a text from her within a minute or two of her pulling up to the condo, is the fact that perhaps it was not her who texted him, or that she was not in the area at the time within reason when we know she picked up the children from daycare at a certain time and then dropped them off at some time shortly after that because they did end up in the care of their father and he did admit that she dropped them off, presumably alone.

To start picking apart the information and putting certain pieces out as a stand alone, implying the possibility of doubt, just doesn't seem reasonable to me. If the story flows with all of the info and evidence then LE can move on to a time frame after the Hummer may have left. To get stuck in a 40 minute time warp that cannot be explained is where the investigation came to a halt.

MOO

Kamille the story doesn't flow obviously or DS would have been charged ... at least after two years, and what proof are we talking about here I'm not sure, nor am I sure what's the relationship between absolute proof and some lesser standard of it by implication (I'm guessing here).

"...There was a text to her boyfriend within a minute or two of that video that would likely have pinged off the tower closest to the condo. So it stands to reason that she was in the Hummer at that time ..."

Yes, I think everybody agrees that it was Michelle and the kids who had been captured in the video footage as they arrived at the condo, that is also being confirmed by DS himself, what's the relevance here?

"... To get stuck in a 40 minute time warp that cannot be explained is where the investigation came to a halt ..."

I agree, it does look too coincidental and therefore suspicious that it might have not been able to account for his whereabouts during crucial times of the disappearance, but that's the extent of it ... not having an alibi is not evidence of guilt but I take your point that compelling and voluminous circumstantial evidence could be very damming in the end if taking as a whole, however, that which is circumstantial here is very weak here IMO and not nearly enough to build a strong case for conviction evidently.

 

[flourish]

Wow, haven't been here in a while. I was shocked to see this is more about defend Dale, then where is Michelle.

IMO Michelle is the victim, and Dale will remain the POI as stated by LE until they state otherwise.

No one has denied that Michelle is the victim.

What may appear to be defensiveness of Dale is more likely reactions to some of the posts here. People like to make fun of Dale for being interested in Star Wars, or for allegedly seeking out lovers of both genders via craigslist. Or repeatedly refer to him as a murderer when he hasn't had the benefit of a trial. These petty jabs are incessant and distract from the actual issue, which is "Where is Michelle?" Dale's possible sexual preferences and affinity for Star Wars aren't evidence against him, but are consistently referred to as though those activities have some evidentiary value in this case.

More of a defense of the justice system than of Dale. At least that's where I'm coming from.

 

[Thor]

Wow, haven't been here in a while. I was shocked to see this is more about defend Dale, then where is Michelle.

IMO Michelle is the victim, and Dale will remain the POI as stated by LE until they state otherwise.

Sparky, I tried a few pages back together with others to talk about something else other then DS, for example the role of the police, what can we do as a group to help finding Michelle and more but we got few takers and very little general interest at least based on the amount of people getting into the discussion and that is not a qualitative judgement on anyone since perhaps those ideas did not have the intended resonance for legitimate reasons although quite frankly there was much merit to it IMO.

Also I don't know anyone here who thinks or characterized Michelle as anything other then the victim, and I'm not clear who doesn't know or denies that LE has named DS a POI although I can make no characterization of what is going to happen in the future, whether DS is going to be charged or not, remain a POI or not, or someone else will be charged or become a POI or whatever the future might hold. I think though that everyone here is hoping for a resolution of this case one way or another since we've all invested so much time and emotions and more importantly because we've come to care deeply for Michelle.

As for defending Dale, I don't think it's either necessary or particularly productive for me to comment on it.

JMO

 

[Kamille]

Kamille the story doesn't flow obviously or DS would have been charged ... at least after two years, and what proof are we talking about here I'm not sure, nor am I sure what's the relationship between absolute proof and some lesser standard of it by implication (I'm guessing here).

"...There was a text to her boyfriend within a minute or two of that video that would likely have pinged off the tower closest to the condo. So it stands to reason that she was in the Hummer at that time ..."

Yes, I think everybody agrees that it was Michelle and the kids who had been captured in the video footage as they arrived at the condo, that is also being confirmed by DS himself, what's the relevance here?

"... To get stuck in a 40 minute time warp that cannot be explained is where the investigation came to a halt ..."

I agree, it does look too coincidental and therefore suspicious that it might have not been able to account for his whereabouts during crucial times of the disappearance, but that's the extent of it ... not having an alibi is not evidence of guilt but I take your point that compelling and voluminous circumstantial evidence could be very damming in the end if taking as a whole, however, that which is circumstantial here is very weak here IMO and not nearly enough to build a strong case for conviction evidently.

The story doesn't flow which is why DSJr was named the prime suspect. He has not been charged because at present there appears to be no evidence that Michelle is actually deceased other than the fact that it would be completely out of character for her to have taken off leaving her children, family and all material possessions behind. This would be a difficult, no body, murder one case to get a conviction on at present and they've only got one shot at it. LE have already indicated that they just need one more piece of the puzzle.

A poster asked if it was Michelle for sure in the video. I answered why it was likely that it was. And I apologize to sreshowtime because I didn't realize that perhaps she/he was not part of the many discussions regarding this and I was trying to point out why pulling one part out of the story and trying to suggest an alternative scenario when all sides now seem to agree it was most likely her, does not answer the question of what was happening at the condo for 40 minutes or more before the story picked up again to suggest she left at around 4:15pm after being there for 10 minutes. Nor is it reasonable, IMO, to assume that because we can't actually see her in the Hummer, then that would constitute reasonable doubt as to the course of events for the afternoon/evening in question, in a trial. I think that we're getting just a little too picky about needing absolute proof on certain things in some of these trials. Even though all circumstantial evidence points to the fact that she was in the Hummer in the surveillance video, some defence lawyer is bound to indicate that it can't be proven because we cannot actually see her in it. Even though by preponderance of the evidence available, it appears that it could only likely have been her and the twins in the vehicle on that tape.

And I don't know about not nearly enough evidence for a conviction, but let's hope they find that one piece of the puzzle that they're looking for.

MOO

 

[Thor]

The story doesn't flow which is why DSJr was named the prime suspect. He has not been charged because at present there appears to be no evidence that Michelle is actually deceased other than the fact that it would be completely out of character for her to have taken off leaving her children, family and all material possessions behind. This would be a difficult, no body, murder one case to get a conviction on at present and they've only got one shot at it. LE have already indicated that they just need one more piece of the puzzle.

A poster asked if it was Michelle for sure in the video. I answered why it was likely that it was. And I apologize to sreshowtime because I didn't realize that perhaps she/he was not part of the many discussions regarding this and I was trying to point out why pulling one part out of the story and trying to suggest an alternative scenario when all sides now seem to agree it was most likely her, does not answer the question of what was happening at the condo for 40 minutes or more before the story picked up again to suggest she left at around 4:15pm after being there for 10 minutes. Nor is it reasonable, IMO, to assume that because we can't actually see her in the Hummer, then that would constitute reasonable doubt as to the course of events for the afternoon/evening in question, in a trial. I think that we're getting just a little too picky about needing absolute proof on certain things in some of these trials. Even though all circumstantial evidence points to the fact that she was in the Hummer in the surveillance video, some defence lawyer is bound to indicate that it can't be proven because we cannot actually see her in it. Even though by preponderance of the evidence available, it appears that it could only likely have been her and the twins in the vehicle on that tape.

And I don't know about not nearly enough evidence for a conviction, but let's hope they find that one piece of the puzzle that they're looking for.

MOO

"... The story doesn't flow which is why DSJr was named the prime suspect ..."

Point well taken, I agree, and would you then agree with me that if it the story flows simply by LE making DS a POI, that therefore by the same logic the story doesn't flow in making him guilty of it since they have not charged him with any crimes even after two years of investigations? Agreed? And hasn't been this exactly my point all along? Namely that the problem is not so much with existing evidence, the problem here is with the evidence that either does not exist or has not been discovered as of today, a very crucial difference between been a POI in a crime and being actually convicted of that very crime.

I still don't understand what is the relevance of the tape and the fact that it was Michelle and the kids in the footage where that has not been disputed by anyone and has even been confirmed by DS himself. I mean there are no disputes on this issue and how any of it makes DS any less guilty or innocent outside of the circumstantial evidence of DS being the last "known" person to have seen Michelle alive? Clearly if there's one sure reason why LE suspects him must be this very fact, and I don't think anyone would disagree with you on this one.

JMO

 

[Kamille]

"... The story doesn't flow which is why DSJr was named the prime suspect ..."

Point well taken, I agree, and would you then agree with me that if it the story flows simply by LE making DS a POI, that therefore by the same logic the story doesn't flow in making him guilty of it since they have not charged him with any crimes even after two years of investigations, yes?

Now to be clear I'm not asking you to concede DS is innocent , I'm only saying that insofar we're discussing what LE does as an indication of X then therefore what LE doesn't do cannot be an indication of X as well, that would be a contradiction, yes? Therefore it must be something other then X, say Y in this case. So again, it could be an indication of guilt because LE has named him a POI, but it could be an indication of innocence if they haven't charged him with any crimes after 2 years of investigations. If that is not the case then what LE does or doesn't do, say or doesn't say, is irrelevant since as far as you're concerned DS is guilty in any case, yes?

I am referring to DSJr's story, as told to the family and likely also to LE as being the story that doesn't flow. It is, and was, taken as a true account apparently, right up until LE started to get evidence in that suggested that the timeline of the story could not be possible. Without that video surveillance, and perhaps some other eye witness and electronic accounts of where Michelle was at crucial times, LE would still be working off the assumption that she arrived around 4pm and left around 4:10-4:15pm. Therefore also assuming that the drop off of the twins was successful and that she left of her own accord and ran into foul play after that time. With the glaring discrepancy in time, all of the times that DSJr gave for not only Michelle's arrival but his departure and arrival at his parent's home, it became quite obvious that he was not telling the truth about what transpired that afternoon/evening. Perhaps there is a reason for that. But he chooses not to share that with LE at this time.

And as I've indicated in an earlier post, there are perhaps thousands of cases that are at a standstill with a prime suspect or suspects and the DA's inaction on bringing the case to trial. Many are documented on this board. Just because an arrest has not been made and the case has not gone to trial, does not mean that LE are any less convinced that they have the correct prime suspect named in this case. DA's aren't going to bring cases to trial that they are not reasonably sure they can get a conviction on, as I've said they only get one chance and they'd rather take the time to make sure they've got as much evidence as possible than to rush a charge and a subsequent trial. And a case with no body and no evidence of death or forensic evidence of a crime scene apparently, would be a tough one to prove I'm sure.

And to be clear, LE has not named DSJr a POI in this case. He has been named the PRIME SUSPECT. Kind of a different distinction IMO. And his actions, inactions, sketchy story and timeline, plus the fact that the investigating officers have determined, based on what they know and have seen, that they believe him responsible, are the reasons why I believe that he is most likely guilty of killing and disposing of Michelle, either alone or with assistance.

Now if there is an announcement at any time that LE no longer consider him to be a suspect or of course if there is an arrest of another perpetrator or, in the best case scenario, Michelle is found alive, then of course my opinion would change. But that's all it is, my opinion. Based on the information that has been made available to date. And in the court of public opinion, a person does not have the benefit of innocent until proven guilty. That is only applicable in a court of law. And I can only hope that he finds himself there one day to answer to the charge of first degree murder of Michelle Loree Parker. Or that LE can somehow work with him to perhaps clear him of suspicion, get answers to their questions, and to get a new perspective on where to take the case and where to look for Michelle.

MOO

 

[Thor]

I am referring to DSJr's story, as told to the family and likely also to LE as being the story that doesn't flow. It is, and was, taken as a true account apparently, right up until LE started to get evidence in that suggested that the timeline of the story could not be possible. Without that video surveillance, and perhaps some other eye witness and electronic accounts of where Michelle was at crucial times, LE would still be working off the assumption that she arrived around 4pm and left around 4:10-4:15pm. Therefore also assuming that the drop off of the twins was successful and that she left of her own accord and ran into foul play after that time. With the glaring discrepancy in time, all of the times that DSJr gave for not only Michelle's arrival but his departure and arrival at his parent's home, it became quite obvious that he was not telling the truth about what transpired that afternoon/evening. Perhaps there is a reason for that. But he chooses not to share that with LE at this time.

And as I've indicated in an earlier post, there are perhaps thousands of cases that are at a standstill with a prime suspect or suspects and the DA's inaction on bringing the case to trial. Many are documented on this board. Just because an arrest has not been made and the case has not gone to trial, does not mean that LE are any less convinced that they have the correct prime suspect named in this case. DA's aren't going to bring cases to trial that they are not reasonably sure they can get a conviction on, as I've said they only get one chance and they'd rather take the time to make sure they've got as much evidence as possible than to rush a charge and a subsequent trial. And a case with no body and no evidence of death or forensic evidence of a crime scene apparently, would be a tough one to prove I'm sure.

And to be clear, LE has not named DSJr a POI in this case. He has been named the PRIME SUSPECT. Kind of a different distinction IMO. And his actions, inactions, sketchy story and timeline, plus the fact that the investigating officers have determined, based on what they know and have seen, that they believe him responsible, are the reasons why I believe that he is most likely guilty of killing and disposing of Michelle, either alone or with assistance.

Now if there is an announcement at any time that LE no longer consider him to be a suspect or of course if there is an arrest of another perpetrator or, in the best case scenario, Michelle is found alive, then of course my opinion would change. But that's all it is, my opinion. Based on the information that has been made available to date. And in the court of public opinion, a person does not have the benefit of innocent until proven guilty. That is only applicable in a court of law. And I can only hope that he finds himself there one day to answer to the charge of first degree murder of Michelle Loree Parker. Or that LE can somehow work with him to perhaps clear him of suspicion, get answers to their questions, and to get a new perspective on where to take the case and where to look for Michelle.

MOO

"...I am referring to DSJr's story, as told to the family and likely also to LE as being the story that doesn't flow ..."

You are referring to an account of a statement allegedly made to a member(s) of Michelle's family and that might be at odds with any statements DS might have made to the Police and I have no ideas how you and me or anyone else can make any sense of it without having sworn testimonies by all sides to evaluate.

"... right up until LE started to get evidence in that suggested that the timeline of the story could not be possible ..."

That is news to me, can you give a link or a reference of any kind where LE specifically characterized a specific storyline as related by DS as not possible. Please understand words have very specific meaning, impossible is that which cannot be possible and it reminds me of DS's attorney contention that given the timeline DS could not possibly have done it, so you see there it is another impossibility for people to ponder. In any case making a statement that is not possible is not the same of making a statement that is a lie, while the first may be unintentional the latter must be proven to be intentionally misleading or with the intention to deceive and since most of this issue is hearsay and not part of an official record that has been made public, it'd be impossible to discern which is which at this time.

" ... And as I've indicated in an earlier post, there are perhaps thousands of cases that are at a standstill with a prime suspect or suspects and the DA's inaction on bringing the case to trial. Many are documented on this board. Just because an arrest has not been made and the case has not gone to trial, does not mean that LE are any less convinced that they have the correct prime suspect named in this case ..."

I think the point was not what LE believes or not, clearly they believe that DS is or might be guilty here, and what they believe is no evidence of guilt or innocence in itself, rather it was specifically (my point was) that after two years of investigations and no indictment one can hardly believe that this case is headed in the right direction which IMO would be to find Michelle and to prosecute those responsible, whether those include DS or not, and that would be a reasonable statement IMO no matter what opinions one might hold on this case.

"... DA's aren't going to bring cases to trial that they are not reasonably sure they can get a conviction on, as I've said they only get one chance and they'd rather take the time to make sure they've got as much evidence as possible than to rush a charge and a subsequent trial ..."

Is that to say that they actually have solid evidence against DS but even after 2 years have passed they still are sitting around for that very last piece of evidence that will give them assurances of conviction? The last piece of evidence to bring it all together theory that has been circulating around here since time immemorial? Seriously? Really ... seriously? And that is based on what exactly? On an alleged inconsistent statement referring to a timeline? How long must be until somebody will accept here that may be, just may be, that LE are about to or have already screwed this up royally? Is it 2 years, 3 years 4? 10? I mean it's really impressive to me how much confidence we have in the Police or is it simply that we cannot possibly have been wrong about things around here? And how does one changes that which may be wrong if one doesn't accept it and that being that case how we ever going to find Michelle and prosecute those responsible if not only by chance? What happened to that old fashion concept called responsibility? So we're never wrong because there is always a tomorrow when we'll be vindicated thingy? Only if DS is proven innocent? Is that the plan to find Michelle? Or to to prove Ds guilty because the Police has been so successful so far? Does a picture of DS living free in another state looks like success or anything remotely like it to anyone who believe he's guilty? What evidence are we expecting to find tomorrow that we could not find today? And how would we get that evidence? By LE doing what they have done before and expecting different results? I'm sorry but only one image comes to my mind at this moment, the deck of the Titanic, and I hope I'm wrong, because I always make room for that possibility.

JMO

 

[Kamille]

"...I am referring to DSJr's story, as told to the family and likely also to LE as being the story that doesn't flow ..."

You are referring to an account of a statement allegedly made to a member(s) of Michelle's family and that might be at odds with any statements DS might have made to the Police and I have no ideas how you and me or anyone else can make any sense of it without having sworn testimonies by all sides to evaluate.

This is a discussion board, not a court of law. This case has not gone to trial and there is no discovery. In most of the discussions on this board we do not have "sworn testimony" by anyone and base our OPINIONS on the information that has been provided through other avenues. I've been following this case since the day she went missing. I know everything that has been quoted in MSM and in live interviews with her family and LE. In the first few days she was last seen by her family at 2:30pm and last seen by DSJr around 4-4:15pm. The crimeline site still has last seen at 4:15pm near the intersection of Lee Vista and S Goldenrod. That time came from someone and the only person it could have come from was the last person to have seen her. And her family confirmed that is what they were told in interviews at the time the surveillence video came out. They were confused. They thought the time on the video surveillance had to be wrong. It wasn't.

"... right up until LE started to get evidence in that suggested that the timeline of the story could not be possible ..."

That is news to me, can you give a link or a reference of any kind where LE specifically characterized a specific storyline as related by DS as not possible. Please understand words have very specific meaning, impossible is that which cannot be possible and it reminds me of DS's attorney contention that given the timeline DS could not possibly have done it, so you see there it is another impossibility for people to ponder. In any case making a statement that is not possible is not the same of making a statement that is a lie, while the first may be unintentional the latter must be proven to be intentionally misleading or with the intention to deceive and since most of this issue is hearsay and not part of an official record that has been made public, it'd be impossible to discern which is which at this time.

It is MY OPINION that the timeline was not possible based on the information provided in MSM and in interviews by the family. Hopefully we will be able to hear an investigating officer back up that conclusion in a court of law one day but right now that's just not going to happen until a charge is laid and a trial is underway.

" ... And as I've indicated in an earlier post, there are perhaps thousands of cases that are at a standstill with a prime suspect or suspects and the DA's inaction on bringing the case to trial. Many are documented on this board. Just because an arrest has not been made and the case has not gone to trial, does not mean that LE are any less convinced that they have the correct prime suspect named in this case ..."

I think the point was not what LE believes or not, clearly they believe that DS is or might be guilty here, and what they believe is no evidence of guilt or innocence in itself, rather it was specifically (my point was) that after two years of investigations and no indictment one can hardly believe that this case is headed in the right direction which IMO would be to find Michelle and to prosecute those responsible, whether those include DS or not, and that would be a reasonable statement IMO no matter what opinions one might hold on this case.

It is the evidence that they have collected that make LE believe that he is guilty. And this case will never head in any other direction until the prime suspect decides to start talking in my OPINION.

"... DA's aren't going to bring cases to trial that they are not reasonably sure they can get a conviction on, as I've said they only get one chance and they'd rather take the time to make sure they've got as much evidence as possible than to rush a charge and a subsequent trial ..."

Is that to say that they actually have solid evidence against DS but even after 2 years have passed they still are sitting around for that very last piece of evidence that will give them assurances of conviction? The last piece of evidence to bring it all together theory that has been circulating around here since time immemorial? Seriously? Really ... seriously? And that is based on what exactly? On an alleged inconsistent statement referring to a timeline? How long must be until somebody will accept here that may be, just may be, that LE are about to or have already screwed this up royally? Is it 2 years, 3 years 4? 10? I mean it's really impressive to me how much confidence we have in the Police or is it simply that we cannot possibly have been wrong about things around here? And how does one changes that which may be wrong if one doesn't accept it and that being that case how we ever going to find Michelle and prosecute those responsible if not only by chance? What happened to that old fashion concept called responsibility? So we're never wrong because there is always a tomorrow when we'll be vindicated thingy? Only if DS is proven innocent? Is that the plan to find Michelle? Or to to prove Ds guilty because the Police has been so successful so far? Does a picture of DS living free in another state looks like success or anything remotely like it to anyone who believe he's guilty? What evidence are we expecting to find tomorrow that we could not find today? And how would we get that evidence? By LE doing what they have done before and expecting different results? I'm sorry but only one image comes to my mind at this moment, the deck of the Titanic, and I hope I'm wrong, because I always make room for that possibility.

Have you followed any other cases? Are you familiar with the Ayla Reynolds case? You should hear the evidence LE have in that one. Blood and saliva from the victim all over the suspects home and vehicle and his baby daughter is still missing. He has not been arrested. How do you explain that? Perhaps DA's are scared of the CSI effect now and without an actual video tape of the murder and a messy bloody crime scene, they know that cases are a hard sell for juries now without a body. This is just one more example of a case that's stalled here on this board. And it appears they have a lot of circumstantial and direct evidence in that one.

Here's another example. Elaina Steinfurth. Her mother and boyfriend claimed the baby was abducted when the baby's father came to pick her up after the mother's visitation for the weekend. The baby was missing for 3 months. Her remains were found in a box in the garage of the home she went missing from weeks ago. Still no arrest. How do you explain that? I don't know what is required to lay a murder charge but it seems like it takes a lot more now than it used to?

JMO

 

[Thor]

"...I am referring to DSJr's story, as told to the family and likely also to LE as being the story that doesn't flow ..."

You are referring to an account of a statement allegedly made to a member(s) of Michelle's family and that might be at odds with any statements DS might have made to the Police and I have no ideas how you and me or anyone else can make any sense of it without having sworn testimonies by all sides to evaluate.

This is a discussion board, not a court of law. This case has not gone to trial and there is no discovery. In most of the discussions on this board we do not have "sworn testimony" by anyone and base our OPINIONS on the information that has been provided through other avenues. I've been following this case since the day she went missing. I know everything that has been quoted in MSM and in live interviews with her family and LE. In the first few days she was last seen by her family at 2:30pm and last seen by DSJr around 4-4:15pm. The crimeline site still has last seen at 4:15pm near the intersection of Lee Vista and S Goldenrod. That time came from someone and the only person it could have come from was the last person to have seen her. And her family confirmed that is what they were told in interviews at the time the surveillence video came out. They were confused. They thought the time on the video surveillance had to be wrong. It wasn't.

"... right up until LE started to get evidence in that suggested that the timeline of the story could not be possible ..."

That is news to me, can you give a link or a reference of any kind where LE specifically characterized a specific storyline as related by DS as not possible. Please understand words have very specific meaning, impossible is that which cannot be possible and it reminds me of DS's attorney contention that given the timeline DS could not possibly have done it, so you see there it is another impossibility for people to ponder. In any case making a statement that is not possible is not the same of making a statement that is a lie, while the first may be unintentional the latter must be proven to be intentionally misleading or with the intention to deceive and since most of this issue is hearsay and not part of an official record that has been made public, it'd be impossible to discern which is which at this time.

It is MY OPINION that the timeline was not possible based on the information provided in MSM and in interviews by the family. Hopefully we will be able to hear an investigating officer back up that conclusion in a court of law one day but right now that's just not going to happen until a charge is laid and a trial is underway.

" ... And as I've indicated in an earlier post, there are perhaps thousands of cases that are at a standstill with a prime suspect or suspects and the DA's inaction on bringing the case to trial. Many are documented on this board. Just because an arrest has not been made and the case has not gone to trial, does not mean that LE are any less convinced that they have the correct prime suspect named in this case ..."

I think the point was not what LE believes or not, clearly they believe that DS is or might be guilty here, and what they believe is no evidence of guilt or innocence in itself, rather it was specifically (my point was) that after two years of investigations and no indictment one can hardly believe that this case is headed in the right direction which IMO would be to find Michelle and to prosecute those responsible, whether those include DS or not, and that would be a reasonable statement IMO no matter what opinions one might hold on this case.

It is the evidence that they have collected that make LE believe that he is guilty. And this case will never head in any other direction until the prime suspect decides to start talking in my OPINION.

"... DA's aren't going to bring cases to trial that they are not reasonably sure they can get a conviction on, as I've said they only get one chance and they'd rather take the time to make sure they've got as much evidence as possible than to rush a charge and a subsequent trial ..."

Is that to say that they actually have solid evidence against DS but even after 2 years have passed they still are sitting around for that very last piece of evidence that will give them assurances of conviction? The last piece of evidence to bring it all together theory that has been circulating around here since time immemorial? Seriously? Really ... seriously? And that is based on what exactly? On an alleged inconsistent statement referring to a timeline? How long must be until somebody will accept here that may be, just may be, that LE are about to or have already screwed this up royally? Is it 2 years, 3 years 4? 10? I mean it's really impressive to me how much confidence we have in the Police or is it simply that we cannot possibly have been wrong about things around here? And how does one changes that which may be wrong if one doesn't accept it and that being that case how we ever going to find Michelle and prosecute those responsible if not only by chance? What happened to that old fashion concept called responsibility? So we're never wrong because there is always a tomorrow when we'll be vindicated thingy? Only if DS is proven innocent? Is that the plan to find Michelle? Or to to prove Ds guilty because the Police has been so successful so far? Does a picture of DS living free in another state looks like success or anything remotely like it to anyone who believe he's guilty? What evidence are we expecting to find tomorrow that we could not find today? And how would we get that evidence? By LE doing what they have done before and expecting different results? I'm sorry but only one image comes to my mind at this moment, the deck of the Titanic, and I hope I'm wrong, because I always make room for that possibility.

Have you followed any other cases? Are you familiar with the Ayla Reynolds case? You should hear the evidence LE have in that one. Blood and saliva from the victim all over the suspects home and vehicle and his baby daughter is still missing. He has not been arrested. How do you explain that? Perhaps DA's are scared of the CSI effect now and without an actual video tape of the murder and a messy bloody crime scene, they know that cases are a hard sell for juries now without a body. This is just one more example of a case that's stalled here on this board. And it appears they have a lot of circumstantial and direct evidence in that one.

Here's another example. Elaina Steinfurth. Her mother and boyfriend claimed the baby was abducted when the baby's father came to pick her up after the mother's visitation for the weekend. The baby was missing for 3 months. Her remains were found in a box in the garage of the home she went missing from weeks ago. Still no arrest. How do you explain that? I don't know what is required to lay a murder charge but it seems like it takes a lot more now than it used to?

JMO

"... This is a discussion board, not a court of law. This case has not gone to trial and there is no discovery. In most of the discussions on this board we do not have "sworn testimony" by anyone and base our OPINIONS on the information that has been provided through other avenues ..."

And what else are we doing here but discussing opinions outside of a court of law? Besides we are not discussing just opinions are we? Aren't we throwing in facts that simply don't exist in the public record in support of a particular opinion here and another there? I gave up counting the many instances where facts and opinions are simply indistinguishable from one another and I have written many times on this subject around here. Now ...If you say that the police regard a statement as "impossible" (I'm paraphrasing here) that is not an opinion is it? You're introducing facts that simply don't exist in the public record, that no one in the Police has said publicly and I simply corrected the record not your opinions, as a matter of fact let's clear the record here to the extent that one can; The Police have said nothing publicly about this investigation in regard to DS other then following:

1. They believe that DS is a person of interest (POI), in other words they suspect him to be involved in the disappearance of Michelle.

2. They have no other suspect.

3. They believe that DS did not fully cooperate during their interviews with him, which seems to have been no less then 2 and no more then 4, depending on the sources, although the record here is a bit murky.

The police have made no additional comment on DS, if I'm mistaken please correct me on the facts, sometimes I simply forget, but I'd like to believe that I'd remember if they'd said something to the effect that DS had made a statement that was impossible to be true.

"...It is MY OPINION that the timeline was not possible based on the information provided in MSM and in interviews by the family ..."

Fair enough, it is your opinion, and I' pointing out that one would need also to hear from DS who might have a different recollection perhaps, or perhaps there was a misunderstanding, or perhaps whatever since the possibility here could be numerous, and it would be very interesting if we could have a transcript of testimonies on this issue to better evaluate the situation ... and that is my opinion, so you have yours I have mine, what's the issue here?

"... It is the evidence that they have collected that make LE believe that he is guilty. And this case will never head in any other direction until the prime suspect decides to start talking in my OPINION ..."

Yes it is your opinion, I don't quite follow here unless you're referring about my not sharing the same conviction here that you have, but that is my opinion is it not?


"...Hopefully we will be able to hear an investigating officer back up that conclusion in a court of law one day but right now that's just not going to happen until a charge is laid and a trial is underway ... "

I agree completely.

"... Have you followed any other cases? Are you familiar with the Ayla Reynolds case? You should hear the evidence LE have in that one. Blood and saliva from the victim all over the suspects home and vehicle and his baby daughter ..."

"... this is just one more example of a case that's stalled here on this board. And it appears they have a lot of circumstantial and direct evidence in that one ..."

Yes I agree that anything can happen, the police can be sitting on a mountain of evidence etc ... etc ... I don't think anyone would disagree with that, unless we talk about ...

... anecdotal information which are usually misleading since anyone can find 1 or 2 or an whatever number of selected examples to prove whatever point, but since you have made clear your credentials here on this subject and this is after all my first "case" and all but surely my last, perhaps you can let us know what is the rate in terms of percentage of cases being solved by LE that have dragged on for 2 years or more and that would be the real statistic that would tell the true story, and that is my opinion and let me make a prediction that you'll find that the more time passes the less the likelihood that a case will be solved at least when time is measured in units of years, and that is of course common sense in my opinion but as I say, I hope that I'm wrong and I always make room for that possibility, but hope , trust, wishes, and even personal opinions around here I'm afraid are not going to change the trajectory of this case and that should be clear to anyone by now, what's needed is a change in attitudes and strategy that involves anyone who's an actor on this stage, from the Police all the way to each and everyone of us who can help and I've written more then one post on this subject just a few pages back if anyone missed it and care to read it, and that is of course "my opinion"

 

[beach]

:lurk:

 

[Kamille]

"... This is a discussion board, not a court of law. This case has not gone to trial and there is no discovery. In most of the discussions on this board we do not have "sworn testimony" by anyone and base our OPINIONS on the information that has been provided through other avenues ..."

And what else are we doing here but discussing opinions outside of a court of law? Besides we are not discussing just opinions are we? Aren't we throwing in facts that simply don't exist in the public record in support of a particular opinion here and another there? I gave up counting the many instances where facts and opinions are simply indistinguishable from one another and I have written many times on this subject around here. Now ...If you say that the police regard a statement as "impossible" (I'm paraphrasing here) that is not an opinion is it? You're introducing facts that simply don't exist in the public record, that no one in the Police has said publicly and I simply corrected the record not your opinions, as a matter of fact let's clear the record here to the extent that one can; The Police have said nothing publicly about this investigation in regard to DS other then following:

1. They believe that DS is a person of interest (POI), in other words they suspect him to be involved in the disappearance of Michelle.

2. They have no other suspect.

3. They believe that DS did not fully cooperate during their interviews with him, which seems to have been no less then 2 and no more then 4, depending on the sources, although the record here is a bit murky.

The police have made no additional comment on DS, if I'm mistaken please correct me on the facts, sometimes I simply forget, but I'd like to believe that I'd remember if they'd said something to the effect that DS had made a statement that was impossible to be true.

"...It is MY OPINION that the timeline was not possible based on the information provided in MSM and in interviews by the family ..."

Fair enough, it is your opinion, and I' pointing out that one would need also to hear from DS who might have a different recollection perhaps, or perhaps there was a misunderstanding, or perhaps whatever since the possibility here could be numerous, and it would be very interesting if we could have a transcript of testimonies on this issue to better evaluate the situation ... and that is my opinion, so you have yours I have mine, what's the issue here?

"... It is the evidence that they have collected that make LE believe that he is guilty. And this case will never head in any other direction until the prime suspect decides to start talking in my OPINION ..."

Yes it is your opinion, I don't quite follow here unless you're referring about my not sharing the same conviction here that you have, but that is my opinion is it not?


"...Hopefully we will be able to hear an investigating officer back up that conclusion in a court of law one day but right now that's just not going to happen until a charge is laid and a trial is underway ... "

I agree completely.

"... Have you followed any other cases? Are you familiar with the Ayla Reynolds case? You should hear the evidence LE have in that one. Blood and saliva from the victim all over the suspects home and vehicle and his baby daughter ..."

"... this is just one more example of a case that's stalled here on this board. And it appears they have a lot of circumstantial and direct evidence in that one ..."

Yes I agree that anything can happen, the police can be sitting on a mountain of evidence etc ... etc ... I don't think anyone would disagree with that, unless we talk about ...

... anecdotal information which are usually misleading since anyone can find 1 or 2 or an whatever number of selected examples to prove whatever point, but since you have made clear your credentials here on this subject and this is after all my first "case" and all but surely my last, perhaps you can let us know what is the rate in terms of percentage of cases being solved by LE that have dragged on for 2 years or more and that would be the real statistic that would tell the true story, and that is my opinion and let me make a prediction that you'll find that the more time passes the less the likelihood that a case will be solved at least when time is measured in units of years, and that is of course common sense in my opinion but as I say, I hope that I'm wrong and I always make room for that possibility, but hope , trust, wishes, and even personal opinions around here I'm afraid are not going to change the trajectory of this case and that should be clear to anyone by now, what's needed is a change in attitudes and strategy that involves anyone who's an actor on this stage, from the Police all the way to each and everyone of us who can help and I've written more then one post on this subject just a few pages back if anyone missed it and care to read it, and that is of course "my opinion"

I have indicated on what I base my opinions in this case. DSJr has never spoken publicly about anything and therefore I do not have the benefit of his quotes in MSM or interviews to rely on. I base my opinions on those who did choose to speak out and what they have said. I think we can be fairly sure that we are not going to hear from DSJr on this matter…ever. So does this mean we must put a halt to all discussion of the information that we do have until such a time as he chooses to regale us with his version?

I don't believe that I implied that LE said in so many words that the timeline DSJr provided was impossible. I said that when the confusion of the video surveillance came out some time after the apparent last known place and time information was provided to MSM and the Crimeline tip site, the assumption up until that point was that she had disappeared sometime after 4:15pm based on someone’s last seen information. After the video came out, it is my opinion that LE would likely have seen a discrepancy in the arrival and departure time that was originally provided and therefore they would likely determine that the original timeframe given was not possible based on new evidence. It is also my opinion that the reason for the last request for an interview and the lie detector test was because of a discrepancy between his story and the video surveillance evidence. We do know that when LE asked DSJr to come back in for another interview and to take the lie detector, he refused and hired a lawyer. He was then named the prime suspect, not because of his refusal to take the lie detector IMO, but because of that apparent discrepancy and other evidence LE had been collecting. To the best of my knowledge he has never answered to LE about what appears, from MSM information, to be a 40 minute discrepancy in his original time line.

DSJr is not a POI in this case, he’s a prime suspect. I see this as LE does not suspect that he may be involved, as they would for a POI designation, but they believe him to be primarily responsible for Michelle’s disappearance. I do believe there is a difference in the distinction but I certainly admit that I could be wrong. I've just never seen LE come out and so boldly make a claim like that against someone and to maintain it at every subsequent opportunity. Personally, I think his parents would fall more under the category of POI. Again…just my opinion. And since you see this designation differently I suppose we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this point.

And I’m pretty sure that you know I am not going to tally all current outstanding cases of missing or deceased persons where there has not been an arrest of the known or likely prime suspect across the country LOL. I was trying to helpfully provide you with a couple of examples of some current cases that are being discussed on this board where there appears to be some pretty damning evidence against suspects, but yet still no arrest after 2 years in the first example and after about 4 months in the second. I have no answer as to why DA’s are not going forward with charges in these and many other cases. You are welcome to venture outside of this thread to find dozens of other examples here but I certainly do not expect you to tally the statistics either. I’m pretty sure though that even on this board you would only find a small percentage of the current unresolved cases across the country. Then again, since you've indicated that you consider a comparison of other similar cases pointless, I suppose you wouldn’t be interested in those facts anyway. But I do agree that the longer an investigation drags on without any new evidence, and especially without a body, the more likely it is that an arrest will not be made and that someone will get away with murder. And that is just a horrible statistic for the victims and their families IMO.

MOO

 

[Thor]

I have indicated on what I base my opinions in this case. DSJr has never spoken publicly about anything and therefore I do not have the benefit of his quotes in MSM or interviews to rely on. I base my opinions on those who did choose to speak out and what they have said. I think we can be fairly sure that we are not going to hear from DSJr on this matter…ever. So does this mean we must put a halt to all discussion of the information that we do have until such a time as he chooses to regale us with his version?

I don't believe that I implied that LE said in so many words that the timeline DSJr provided was impossible. I said that when the confusion of the video surveillance came out some time after the apparent last known place and time information was provided to MSM and the Crimeline tip site, the assumption up until that point was that she had disappeared sometime after 4:15pm based on someone’s last seen information. After the video came out, it is my opinion that LE would likely have seen a discrepancy in the arrival and departure time that was originally provided and therefore they would likely determine that the original timeframe given was not possible based on new evidence. It is also my opinion that the reason for the last request for an interview and the lie detector test was because of a discrepancy between his story and the video surveillance evidence. We do know that when LE asked DSJr to come back in for another interview and to take the lie detector, he refused and hired a lawyer. He was then named the prime suspect, not because of his refusal to take the lie detector IMO, but because of that apparent discrepancy and other evidence LE had been collecting. To the best of my knowledge he has never answered to LE about what appears, from MSM information, to be a 40 minute discrepancy in his original time line.

DSJr is not a POI in this case, he’s a prime suspect. I see this as LE does not suspect that he may be involved, as they would for a POI designation, but they believe him to be primarily responsible for Michelle’s disappearance. I do believe there is a difference in the distinction but I certainly admit that I could be wrong. I've just never seen LE come out and so boldly make a claim like that against someone and to maintain it at every subsequent opportunity. Personally, I think his parents would fall more under the category of POI. Again…just my opinion. And since you see this designation differently I suppose we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this point.

And I’m pretty sure that you know I am not going to tally all current outstanding cases of missing or deceased persons where there has not been an arrest of the known or likely prime suspect across the country LOL. I was trying to helpfully provide you with a couple of examples of some current cases that are being discussed on this board where there appears to be some pretty damning evidence against suspects, but yet still no arrest after 2 years in the first example and after about 4 months in the second. I have no answer as to why DA’s are not going forward with charges in these and many other cases. You are welcome to venture outside of this thread to find dozens of other examples here but I certainly do not expect you to tally the statistics either. I’m pretty sure though that even on this board you would only find a small percentage of the current unresolved cases across the country. Then again, since you've indicated that you consider a comparison of other similar cases pointless, I suppose you wouldn’t be interested in those facts anyway. But I do agree that the longer an investigation drags on without any new evidence, and especially without a body, the more likely it is that an arrest will not be made and that someone will get away with murder. And that is just a horrible statistic for the victims and their families IMO.

MOO

".... And I’m pretty sure that you know I am not going to tally all current outstanding cases of missing or deceased persons ..."

No I didn't mean that you would have to do a statistical study yourself, I meant available statistical analysis done by say ...researchers in the field of Crime Science (not to be confused with Criminal Science) and such.

In any case, let's agree to disagree about our differences and settle with what we agree on which I think is way more relevant ... like let's hope that Michelle is found sooner rather then later and that those who are responsible for her disappearance be brought to justice eventually but nevertheless surely.

 

[Jersey*Girl]

Wow...

Pages and pages and pages of absolutely nothing new...just the same old - same old.

I like the idea someone brought up about attempting to find potential areas to search for where Michelle's remains could be found. Anywhere could be a dumping ground in FL really, or any other state for that matter, but I for one would be extremely grateful for any and all intelligent suppositions.

 

[Skully]

Wow...

Pages and pages and pages of absolutely nothing new...just the same old - same old.

I like the idea someone brought up about attempting to find potential areas to search for where Michelle's remains could be found. Anywhere could be a dumping ground in FL really, or any other state for that matter, but I for one would be extremely grateful for any and all intelligent suppositions.

I really think that area behind the condos where the hummer was found is a good place to start. I did leave a message for the family (private) on the FB page about it, but never got a response.

 

[What'sThatClue]

I really think that area behind the condos where the hummer was found is a good place to start. I did leave a message for the family (private) on the FB page about it, but never got a response.

Perhaps that area was already searched? I mean, I would imagine LE would have searched there but if they didn't I would wonder why not.
Bodies do surface all the time down here, tho, so if an experienced search team could be put together it might be a good idea to search again. I honestly think LE was onto something when they searched area lakes.
JMO

 

[Skully]

Perhaps that area was already searched? I mean, I would imagine LE would have searched there but if they didn't I would wonder why not.
Bodies do surface all the time down here, tho, so if an experienced search team could be put together it might be a good idea to search again. I honestly think LE was onto something when they searched area lakes.
JMO

The lake searches may have been a tip or something they learned from a vm on her phone, or the fact the dad had a boat. But I just keep thinking that if I had a body to get rid of, and it was in my truck; time is of the essence. The fact the hummer turned up where it did, and there just happens to be bulldozers and digging going on near there, makes me think it could have been a place of convenience. I don't think it was searched with dogs. I don't know that for a fact, but it is just something to think about. A place to look again.

 

[Kamille]

".... And I’m pretty sure that you know I am not going to tally all current outstanding cases of missing or deceased persons ..."

No I didn't mean that you would have to do a statistical study yourself, I meant available statistical analysis done by say ...researchers in the field of Crime Science (not to be confused with Criminal Science) and such.

Highly unlikely that such a study exists. You can find pages of solved cold cases with a quick Google search though. So cases are being resolved years after the initial crime. And of course we all hope that this will be one of them.

In any case, let's agree to disagree about our differences and settle with what we agree on which I think is way more relevant ... like let's hope that Michelle is found sooner rather then later and that those who are responsible for her disappearance be brought to justice eventually but nevertheless surely.

And lets continue to have an open discussion about the information that has been made available through MSM, without the restriction of only discussing "facts in evidence" or "sworn testimonies" that we, as a crime forum discussion board, are never going to be privy to until or unless a charge is laid and this case goes to trial. Like all cases on this board, we're here to keep this case in the public eye in the hopes that someone, somewhere will stumble on this discussion and may have some important information (or a sudden attack of conscience) to help solve the case.

MOO

 

[Kamille]

I really think that area behind the condos where the hummer was found is a good place to start. I did leave a message for the family (private) on the FB page about it, but never got a response.

I believe that area was under some landscaping excavation work at the time of Michelle's disappearance or just prior to? While I would have to believe that LE would have thoroughly searched an area around a known crime scene (the discovery of her vehicle), I'd also have to believe that an area that had heavy excavating and digging equipment being used by a random group of workers would be considered pretty well searched if they were moving about the area and digging up the ground.

Unless we have information that the work was completed and all equipment removed by the day she disappeared and no one really uses the area for any real purpose?

MOO

 

[Thor]

Wow...

Pages and pages and pages of absolutely nothing new...just the same old - same old.

I like the idea someone brought up about attempting to find potential areas to search for where Michelle's remains could be found. Anywhere could be a dumping ground in FL really, or any other state for that matter, but I for one would be extremely grateful for any and all intelligent suppositions.

There need to be efforts to organize well defined searches, implement information gathering strategies, re-engage the media, and pressure the Police. All of those components are not simply necessary, they're crucial. That is no small task and it requires well defined and focused organizational objectives on different fronts since there are many practical countervailing forces pushing against those primary objectives. By the nature of the task it can only be done coherently from the top down and not vice versa and that is the singular fundamental problem here where efforts are the issue.

JMO