FL - Sara Morales, 35, shot dead by motorcyclist she hit with car, Orange City, 20 Nov 2021

[GatorFL]

That's not what I said. I said any law that allows you to "chase" someone is ethically and morally wrong. If someone doesn't stop at the scene, then they can explain it to law enforcement. You just need their plates, which these guys already had. The law is wrong in allowing permission for citizens to chase other citizens. It should never be the right of residents/citizens to capture others or to make "a citizen's arrest" or anything of the sort. When you allow that kind of vigilantism, you're begging for bad actors to take advantage (see Ahmad Arbery).



You're a man. That isn't what I would. I'm a woman. I know that even if I stayed in my car, with three men against me and even on the phone with 911, would not guarantee my safety.



Again, this is vigilantism and I find it morally wrong.



I have no problem with dash cams.

MOO

I am not familiar with any written law regarding citizen's arrests; I actually think this is a common law concept. Which means that it is granted under precedent. Again, I believe that these are things that occur commonly without issue.

Vigilantism? The Arbury case seems to be an outlier; I don't consider their argument they were making a citizen's arrest as valid. I think they were hunting someone and he happened to be the victim. That was their defense and since they've been convicted of absolutely everything they were charged with, I don't think anybody bought the citizen's arrest defense. Florida's Justifiable Use of Force law is written to prevent vigilantism. If you provoke somebody, except in rare situations, you lose the right to claim immunity under the law.

I don't think Derr was a vigilante, and apparently law enforcement agrees.

I get that there is a comfort difference between a man and a woman in a charged situation. Even with that difference, I chose to become trained and licensed to carry a concealed weapon. While I think our 2nd Amendment rights are valuable, it is one right I hope I never have to exercise.

JMO

 

[GatorFL]

And then, with three people with guns, two of them back away and said calm down. One fired 8 shots at a woman in her yard after following her home over a traffic accident that caused no damage with her 11 year old daughter watching from the window. It is morally indefensible and I worry about the decline of our society and care for other people.

Sara and her mother were armed, right? As far as I know, of the men standing in the street, only Derr had a weapon so are those the 3 people you are referring to? Maybe I missed the other two were armed, IDK. But I don't think Sara and her mom were backing down, they exited their house to confront these guys. That is not backing away, IMO.

Anytime there are multiple firearms in an emotionally charged incident, the outcome is likely not going to be good. I value the right to carry arms, but I do think if you own a gun you should be trained how to use it and on the law in your area. I know there are many situations, injuries and deaths caused by guns that could be avoided if this training was a requirement.

Nobody could argue that an 11 year old should never see something like this. That poor kid.

JMO

 

[Kittybunny]

I hate this case so much. Knowing Derr can't be charged makes me angry but I understand the law, or at least the explanations provided by helpful posters like @GatorFL.

And I admittedly can't help but look at this case through my own biases... seeing a pregnant woman perhaps in irrational fear, a librarian. Myself a woman who is afraid of road ragers, someone who feels Stand your ground laws can be abused by vigilantes and hotheads. A potential prejudice of my own against aggressive male drivers. It feels like she was the victim here but I fully acknowledge that she most certainly could have been an equal participant in this situation. We will never know to what degree she acted solely out of fear or her own aggression or not thinking she did anything wrong or some combination of all three.

It feels like such a horrible tragedy that could have been avoided had just one person made one single decision to de-escalate rather than escalate. If Sara stopped and didn't panic. If one of Derr's posse said, hey man we called the cops, just chill.

So sad all around.

 

[Laughing]

I don't think Derr was a vigilante, and apparently law enforcement agrees.

rsbm

Or, law enforcement/DA is not certain there is enough evidence to convict Derr.

jmho ymmv lrr

 

[katydid23]

And then, with three people with guns, two of them back away and said calm down. One fired 8 shots at a woman in her yard after following her home over a traffic accident that caused no damage with her 11 year old daughter watching from the window. It is morally indefensible and I worry about the decline of our society and care for other people.

The only reason that poor 11 yr old was able to watch that tragedy through the window was because her mother left the safety of the house, and ran out into the yard, yelling and waving her own weapon. Her mom escalated that tragic situation needlessly, imo.

And calling it 'a traffic accident that caused no damage' is not a very specific or accurate description, in my opinion. If I was a riding a motorcycle and someone purposely veered their moving vehicle into my bike, scraping my side pack, I would be incensed. That could kill someone. He had every right to be angry at that manuever. And 2 other witnesses also thought she was wrong for doing so.

I cannot see this woman as a 100% victim here. It is heartbreaking that she died in front of her mother and child and her unborn was lost as well. It should never have happened that way. I wish that cyclist hadn't shot her. I question whether he shot too soon. But I cannot ignore the fact that she was safely locked up in her home, waiting for the police to arrive, and she had no logical reason to run outside with her weapon at that time. JMO

 

[GatorFL]

The only reason that poor 11 yr old was able to watch that tragedy through the window was because her mother left the safety of the house, and ran out into the yard, yelling and waving her own weapon. Her mom escalated that tragic situation needlessly, imo.

And calling it 'a traffic accident that caused no damage' is not a very specific or accurate description, in my opinion. If I was a riding a motorcycle and someone purposely veered their moving vehicle into my bike, scraping my side pack, I would be incensed. That could kill someone. He had every right to be angry at that manuever. And 2 other witnesses also thought she was wrong for doing so.

I cannot see this woman as a 100% victim here. It is heartbreaking that she died in front of her mother and child and her unborn was lost as well. It should never have happened that way. I wish that cyclist hadn't shot her. I question whether he shot too soon. But I cannot ignore the fact that she was safely locked up in her home, waiting for the police to arrive, and she had no logical reason to run outside with her weapon at that time. JMO

Nobody should view her as a 100% victim. It's a tragic story for sure, but a big part of the tragedy are the several mistakes she made. She chose not to pull over. As far as we know she chose not to call 911 from the road. She chose to exit the safety of her home to confront the people who followed her. Did she deserve to die for those mistakes? Of course not, no reasonable person would say that. But, we have laws as the arbiter of what is right and wrong and sadly the law was against her in this complex set of incidents.

 

[PayrollNerd]

rsbm

Or, law enforcement/DA is not certain there is enough evidence to convict Derr.

jmho ymmv lrr

Exactly. As my friend who is an attorney says “It’s not about what’s right or wrong. It’s about what you can prove in a court of law.” That’s the frustration for most of us. We want to convict on morals and ethics, meanness, cruelty, etc. But, all we have is the law.

 

[neesaki]

Nobody should view her as a 100% victim. It's a tragic story for sure, but a big part of the tragedy are the several mistakes she made. She chose not to pull over. As far as we know she chose not to call 911 from the road. She chose to exit the safety of her home to confront the people who followed her. Did she deserve to die for those mistakes? Of course not, no reasonable person would say that. But, we have laws as the arbiter of what is right and wrong and sadly the law was against her in this complex set of incidents.

A question: when she deliberately hit him with her car, would that be considered assault ? If so, could explain why she decided to drive off instead of stop. Jmo
ETA: What a terrible tragedy, that could have been avoided if all parties could have kept their cool.

 

[GatorFL]

A question: when she deliberately hit him with her car, would that be considered assault ? If so, could explain why she decided to drive off instead of stop. Jmo
ETA: What a terrible tragedy, that could have been avoided if all parties could have kept their cool.

IANAL but I think it would be a battery charge in Florida.

Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

 

[GatorFL]

I received the AR today from the ME's office today so the case is definitely closed.

It has been de-identified. She was shot 5 times, probably more than one of the shots was fatal. She was also under the influence of marijuana, I wonder if that contributed to her paranoia.

 

[sumzero]

Plus, the witnesses apparently supported Derr's version of events. It was probably why they joined him in following her. They saw her attempt to run the motorcyclist off the road and then flee. That would be disturbing. If that same person then exits her home with a firearm, you'd have to assume she'd use it. That's some pretty out of control behavior.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Plus, the witnesses apparently supported Derr's version of events. It was probably why they joined him in following her. They saw her attempt to run the motorcyclist off the road and then flee. That would be disturbing. If that same person then exits her home with a firearm, you'd have to assume she'd use it. That's some pretty out of control behavior.

If you're basing that off what was posted in the report, I think it's relevant that it says "reportedly" over and over, meaning this is pre-investigation and only based on what the police believe happened.

Thank you @GatorFL for posting it. Other than the exact injuries, the only other thing we learned that we didn't know was that she had smoked marijuana. But there will continue to be disagreement on how and why this all went down and that will likely never be resolved to where we all agree.

 

[cvaldez1975]

great, he shot her right through the baby.

 

[GatorFL]

great, he shot her right through the baby.

On one hand, I understand the connotation of this statement. On the other, I think of a paranoid pregnant woman waiving a gun a guy she almost killed in an earlier traffic accident and I understand why she was shot.

I'm not sure, so I'll ask here. Is marijuana use advisable for a recently pregnant woman? Will it harm the fetus in any manner?

 

[PayrollNerd]

On one hand, I understand the connotation of this statement. On the other, I think of a paranoid pregnant woman waiving a gun a guy she almost killed in an earlier traffic accident and I understand why she was shot.

I'm not sure, so I'll ask here. Is marijuana use advisable for a recently pregnant woman? Will it harm the fetus in any manner?

I know when I was in HR and we instituted the Drug Free program, we were told marijuana stayed in the body for 37 days. That was hard news for applicants to swallow when they failed their drug test. Some tried to blame it on second hand smoke. Nope, that's not how that works.

It is possible as newly pregnant, or maybe she had recently realized she was pregnant, that she hadn't smoked or ingested anything for weeks. No idea on the health ramifications of a developing fetus.

 

[Gardenista]

I know when I was in HR and we instituted the Drug Free program, we were told marijuana stayed in the body for 37 days. That was hard news for applicants to swallow when they failed their drug test. Some tried to blame it on second hand smoke. Nope, that's not how that works.

It is possible as newly pregnant, or maybe she had recently realized she was pregnant, that she hadn't smoked or ingested anything for weeks. No idea on the health ramifications of a developing fetus.

Her mom/friends gave interviews and said she was 4-5 mos pregnant

 

[Laughing]

I'm not sure, so I'll ask here. Is marijuana use advisable for a recently pregnant woman? Will it harm the fetus in any manner?

rsbm
Decades ago I earned a degree in Human Development.

I remember a professor in lecture stating that the problem is not so much that a pregnant woman uses drugs, but that a drug-using woman becomes pregnant.

I guess this will depend on your perspective -- but there is risk to the fetus of any exposure.

Alcohol at critical times results in Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, with a spectrum of problems for the developing human.

Smoking cigarettes is statistically tied to low birthweight babies, pre-term birth, and craniofacial (mouth & lip) deformities.

The CDC mentions some problems tied to marijuana use during pregnancy:

Some research shows that marijuana use during pregnancy is linked to health concerns, including high use of other substances that may impact pregnancy and infant health such as tobacco, and developmental problems in adolescents. Further research is needed to better understand how marijuana may affect pregnant women and developing babies. Consistent with guidance from the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologistsexternal icon, CDC advises against using marijuana during pregnancy. If you’re using marijuana and are pregnant or are planning to become pregnant, talk to your healthcare provider.

Substance Use During Pregnancy | CDC

A double-blind trial, offering a still illegal in many places substance to pregnant research subjects? I don't see that happening.

As a nation we are carrying out that science experiment now in several states.

I stopped drinking coffee. But, people evaluate risks in different ways.

Roll the dice for your own baby, imho.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

On one hand, I understand the connotation of this statement. On the other, I think of a paranoid pregnant woman waiving a gun a guy she almost killed in an earlier traffic accident and I understand why she was shot.

I'm not sure, so I'll ask here. Is marijuana use advisable for a recently pregnant woman? Will it harm the fetus in any manner?

You keep saying paranoid and I don't think that's accurate. She was not paranoid. She was responding to what was happening. You may disagree with how she responded, but that does not make her paranoid. Paranoia has to do with her thoughts and her thoughts, as documented by the 911 call and her mom were not that of paranoia. In fact, her case would be ideal for teaching medical students a rule-out for paranoia (i.e. could this actually be happening or is it fantasy?). Clinical paranoia is someone detached from reality.

Paranoia: "I believe that random stranger on the street wants me dead for no reason whatsoever. I've never seen him before, but I know he has a tracker on my car, he bugs my phone, and he watches me on my webcam just because he can."

Not paranoia: "I'm afraid the guy I just got into a screaming match with over a parking space may grab a gun from his car and shoot me."

It may be nuanced to most people which is why I'm speaking up about it. This woman was not paranoid. What she was afraid was a possible reality.

And yes, marijuana can harm a baby.

 

[GatorFL]

Her mom/friends gave interviews and said she was 4-5 mos pregnant

The ME said it looked like 1-3 months in the AR.

 

[GatorFL]

You keep saying paranoid and I don't think that's accurate. She was not paranoid. She was responding to what was happening. You may disagree with how she responded, but that does not make her paranoid. Paranoia has to do with her thoughts and her thoughts, as documented by the 911 call and her mom were not that of paranoia. In fact, her case would be ideal for teaching medical students a rule-out for paranoia (i.e. could this actually be happening or is it fantasy?). Clinical paranoia is someone detached from reality.

Paranoia: "I believe that random stranger on the street wants me dead for no reason whatsoever. I've never seen him before, but I know he has a tracker on my car, he bugs my phone, and he watches me on my webcam just because he can."

Not paranoia: "I'm afraid the guy I just got into a screaming match with over a parking space may grab a gun from his car and shoot me."

It may be nuanced to most people which is why I'm speaking up about it. This woman was not paranoid. What she was afraid was a possible reality.

And yes, marijuana can harm a baby.

I don't know if I said she was paranoid in my earlier posts. If I did I was referring to it in a general sense. When I saw the THC in her system I remembered that paranoia is a side effect from marijuana use. So, now that we definitely know she was a marijuana user, I am supposing that she suffered from some kind of marijuana caused paranoia.

Study Sheds Light on Marijuana and Paranoia