FL - Sara Morales, 35, shot dead by motorcyclist she hit with car, Orange City, 20 Nov 2021

[GatorFL]

Yes I agree that she made a bad decision and then her fatal mistake was not committing to it. Had either party gone to trial for killing the other, I feel very confident that a jury would have been much more sympathetic to a librarian in her own home with her children and mother than they would have been with the bikers who followed her there, even had she mowed them down in the street with semi-automatic rifle fire. I think at worst she would have spent 3-5 years in minimum security prison. As it is, she will be dead forever.

In other cases, charges have been as stiff as 1st degree murder. IMO, had she fired upon the bikers, given the circumstances, she would have faced manslaughter by culpable negligence.

782.07 Manslaughter; aggravated manslaughter of an elderly person or disabled adult; aggravated manslaughter of a child; aggravated manslaughter of an officer, a firefighter, an emergency medical technician, or a paramedic.—
(1) The killing of a human being by the act, procurement, or culpable negligence of another, without lawful justification according to the provisions of chapter 776 and in cases in which such killing shall not be excusable homicide or murder, according to the provisions of this chapter, is manslaughter, a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

A quick search shows this charge is 15 years in prison.

Beats being dead I guess.

 

[Cryptic]

Biggest takeaway from all of this: know your state laws.

Not for me.

My biggest takeaway is still: If you are armed and don't like something- and nobody got hurt and nobody is getting hurt.... leave.

I have no desire to think I truly know Texas legislative law and Texas case law- then engage in "one up" contests with people. Nor, do I intend to follow people who engaged in minor crimes. Rather, I will just..... leave- or allow them to leave.

Though I can respect the decision not to prosecute as I don't think it was made lightly, my biggest fear is that internet self defense "gurus" will gravitate to this case:

- This self defense case appears to have involved elements "A", "B" and "C".
- So.... if you think you have elements "A", "B" and "C", you can do the same as the biker did.

My guess is that it would not have taken much more negative factors against the biker to lead to a prosecution.

In short, thinking one understands statutory law and thinking one understands case law interpretations of the statutes can be very different from actually understanding them.

 

[GatorFL]

Not for me.

My biggest takeaway is still: If you are armed and don't like something- and nobody got hurt and nobody is getting hurt.... leave.

I have no desire to think I truly know Texas legislative law and Texas case law- then engage in "one up" contests with people. Nor, do I intend to follow people who engaged in minor crimes. Rather, I will just..... leave- or allow them to leave.

Though I can respect the decision not to prosecute as I don't think it was made lightly, my biggest fear is that internet self defense "gurus" will gravitate to this case:

- This self defense case appears to have involved elements "A", "B" and "C".
- So.... if you think you have elements "A", "B" and "C", you can do the same as the biker did.

My guess is that it would not have taken much more negative factors against the biker to lead to a prosecution.

In short, thinking one understands statutory law and thinking one understands case law interpretations of the statutes can be very different from actually understanding them.

Well, this is why obtaining a concealed weapons permit is not very easy. I spent 6 hours in a classroom and about 5 minutes on the shooting range to get mine. Knowing the legalities of when and where you can carry and when and where you can use your weapon is vital, and is not easy. Showing the required proficiency with the weapon is the easy part.

 

[Cryptic]

Well, this is why obtaining a concealed weapons permit is not very easy. I spent 6 hours in a classroom and about 5 minutes on the shooting range to get mine.

The one instructor that I knew spent time on Texas law governing self defense.

But, his main emphasis was: Outside your home, armed, see some thing you dont like- nobody hurt and you are not at risk?..... then simply leave. Or....see something you don't like- observe and report to the police.

He never taught any "SYG" law and never taught any citizens arrest law, though Texas allows both. If students asked about them, he would say that these subjects were simply not presented in his class.

His biggest fear was that somebody would feel "empowered" after taking his class, think they knew the law- then do something criminal, or just plain foolish.

My guess if that biker had been his student, my instructor friend would have thought he had failed that student as an instructor- even if the biker was legally correct. Likewise, he would have probably thought he failed Morales.

 

[cvaldez1975]

my final take is just because you cant be prosecuted doesnt make it right. he wont pay in this world but in the next he may. hopefully he learned instead of got more emboldened.

 

[cvaldez1975]

today, i was driving down the street in the left lane and a car from the right lane literally turned in front of me to get a parking spot. i honked because i almost t boned them. then i left because who knows what they would have done.....

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Refusing to leave property-without posing an imminent threat of great bodily harm or death-is not grounds for the use of justifiable force. And these guys never set foot on her property.

She was so far afoul of Florida's justifiable force laws that it is clear she was not versed in that law at all. Nor Florida traffic law. Every opportunity she had to follow the law, she didn't.

Now that this is over, I'll say this. I wonder if she had some mental or emotional issues? She did not act like a normal law abiding citizen.

JMO

Except that there are about 5 posters in this thread alone who have repeatedly said they would have done what she did. So while I respect your opinion, I think it's a significant stretch to say no "normal law abiding citizen" would have done what she did.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Again, all of that would not have been aggravated stalking. I posted the statute for you to see.

<modsnip - no source>They called 911 from the road and were attempting to get her to pull over which is what drivers are expected to do in an accident. Had she fired upon the bikers and harmed or killed them, I think that she would have been arrested for murder. Why? There was no evidence any of them posed an imminent danger to her. People have been arrested and convicted for misusing deadly force in Florida when the situation did not fit the grounds of the statute.

I don't think she deserved to die though. She made several mistakes and paid dearly for it. I wish she had made some different decisions.

If a law can be interpreted in a way in which a young woman chased home by three men who refuse to leave after she's told them she's afraid has no legal right to brandish a weapon but one of the three cowboys has the right to kill her dead in her own yard, then that law needs to be changed to something more logical. MOO.

 

[GatorFL]

If a law can be interpreted in a way in which a young woman chased home by three men who refuse to leave after she's told them she's afraid has no legal right to brandish a weapon but one of the three cowboys has the right to kill her dead in her own yard, then that law needs to be changed to something more logical. MOO.

We still don't know all that law enforcement does. I don't think it is fair to say she was chased. We know she was followed and told to pull over, because that was in several of the newspaper articles. Telling her to pull over after a traffic accident is legal and required under the law.

What we do know is that this was a complex incident with several intertwined circumstances. First were the (two?) traffic incidents. These were minor, on both sides. Second was the biker and other witness attempting to get her to pull over. Again, minor. Third was the encounter at her house, which was also a couple of circumstances which we've discussed. The denouement of this story happens at the end. She unlawfully brandished a gun against several people who were not posing an imminent threat to her and she was shot. End of story.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

We still don't know all that law enforcement does. I don't think it is fair to say she was chased.

Derr's exact words to 911: "we chased her down."

We know she was followed and told to pull over, because that was in several of the newspaper articles. Telling her to pull over after a traffic accident is legal and required under the law.

Insanity imo. This is exactly how you get assaults and murders during road rage incidents. MOO.

 

[bears10]

today, i was driving down the street in the left lane and a car from the right lane literally turned in front of me to get a parking spot. i honked because i almost t boned them. then i left because who knows what they would have done.....

you mean you didn’t follow them home with two strangers in tow?

 

[wary]

you mean you didn’t follow them home with two strangers in tow?

Wouldn’t a more relevant question be: “you mean you didn’t hit them to try to teach them a lesson, and then, contrary to the laws of the road, head on home as though nothing had happened?”

One question, though. I thought I heard recently that Morales didn’t call 911 until she got home. Assuming that’s true, do we know that she HAD a working phone in her car? If she didn’t, that would create an awkward situation for her—if she didn’t know the location of a police station nearby, and if she genuinely was afraid to stop.

all MOO

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

If she didn’t, that would create an awkward situation for her—if she didn’t know the location of a police station nearby, and if she genuinely was afraid to stop.

all MOO

This can't be overstated. I agree that people need to stop, but if she was genuinely afraid, I can't fault her for not stopping regardless of the phone. Road rage incidents result in assault and murder every single day. If three men are chasing after me, I wouldn't stop.

 

[wary]

This can't be overstated. I agree that people need to stop, but if she was genuinely afraid, I can't fault her for not stopping regardless of the phone. Road rage incidents result in assault and murder every single day. If three men are chasing after me, I wouldn't stop.

Well, if she had a phone in the car, she needed to call 911, explain that she was afraid to stop, ask where the nearest police station was.

And, they had every right to chase after her when she’s fleeing the scene of an accident. If they chase her to a police station, then things can be sorted out.

And she sort of ruined the genuinely afraid argument when she dashed out of her house brandishing a gun. That looks to me like anger, not fear.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

And, they had every right to chase after her when she’s fleeing the scene of an accident. If they chase her to a police station, then things can be sorted out.

IMO, this is the problem with the law. They should NOT have "every right" to chase after anyone for any reason. This is vigilantism and it escalates every single day in America.

No matter what a person does on the road, they should not be followed, chased, or hunted by other citizens (and especially citizens who weren't even involved). You're just asking for blood in the streets when you put a stamp on approval on this (not you personally, the law). You get the plates, you call the police. That should be the end of it.

And she sort of ruined the genuinely afraid argument when she dashed out of her house brandishing a gun. That looks to me like anger, not fear.

It not only looks like fear to me, it screams fear. She even said it in her words, that the three of them chased her home and she wanted them to leave her alone. The law is the law, but the law in this case is wrong by any ethical or moral metric I consider to be just.

MOO.

 

[GatorFL]

IMO, this is the problem with the law. They should NOT have "every right" to chase after anyone for any reason. This is vigilantism and it escalates every single day in America.

No matter what a person does on the road, they should not be followed, chased, or hunted by other citizens (and especially citizens who weren't even involved). You're just asking for blood in the streets when you put a stamp on approval on this (not you personally, the law). You get the plates, you call the police. That should be the end of it.



It not only looks like fear to me, it screams fear. She even said it in her words, that the three of them chased her home and she wanted them to leave her alone. The law is the law, but the law in this case is wrong by any ethical or moral metric I consider to be just.

MOO.

I respectfully disagree. If someone is in an accident, they need to pull over and exchange contact and insurance information. This is what the traffic law in FL requires. It happens hundreds, perhaps thousands of times a day in this state and rarely do you hear of something going wrong, so the law is not ethically or morally wrong.

If someone is fearful because the other party is belligerent, they should pull over, call 911, and wait for help to arrive before exiting the vehicle. That is what I would do.

A driver should have the right to pursue a fleeing party, if it is safe to do so. This way they can point out the car and the driver to the authorities when they arrive. There are penalties for leaving the scene of an accident after all. Auto insurance is pretty expensive in FL, because people flee accidents or don't accept responsibility for an accident they caused.

I am an advocate for mandatory dash cams in all cars. It levels the playing field by showing exactly what happed in a traffic accident, or even in other incidents.

 

[katydid23]

IMO, this is the problem with the law. They should NOT have "every right" to chase after anyone for any reason. This is vigilantism and it escalates every single day in America.

No matter what a person does on the road, they should not be followed, chased, or hunted by other citizens (and especially citizens who weren't even involved). You're just asking for blood in the streets when you put a stamp on approval on this (not you personally, the law). You get the plates, you call the police. That should be the end of it.

It not only looks like fear to me, it screams fear. She even said it in her words, that the three of them chased her home and she wanted them to leave her alone. The law is the law, but the law in this case is wrong by any ethical or moral metric I consider to be just.

MOO.

They were leaving her alone. They were standing in the street, talking to the 911 dispatcher, waiting for the police. They were not actively threatening her physically, or otherwise.

If that was so frightening to her that she felt compelled to leave the safety of her locked up home, and run towards them, waving a gun, then I think she was primarily at fault for the tragic outcome. There was no need for that. She could have watched from the window ands had plenty of time to shoot if any of them came to her home, trying to enter. JMO

 

[GatorFL]

They were leaving her alone. They were standing in the street, talking to the 911 dispatcher, waiting for the police. They were not actively threatening her physically, or otherwise.

If that was so frightening to her that she felt compelled to leave the safety of her locked up home, and run towards them, waving a gun, then I think she was primarily at fault for the tragic outcome. There was no need for that. She could have watched from the window ands had plenty of time to shoot if any of them came to her home, trying to enter. JMO

100% spot on.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

I respectfully disagree. If someone is in an accident, they need to pull over and exchange contact and insurance information. This is what the traffic law in FL requires. It happens hundreds, perhaps thousands of times a day in this state and rarely do you hear of something going wrong, so the law is not ethically or morally wrong.

That's not what I said. I said any law that allows you to "chase" someone is ethically and morally wrong. If someone doesn't stop at the scene, then they can explain it to law enforcement. You just need their plates, which these guys already had. The law is wrong in allowing permission for citizens to chase other citizens. It should never be the right of residents/citizens to capture others or to make "a citizen's arrest" or anything of the sort. When you allow that kind of vigilantism, you're begging for bad actors to take advantage (see Ahmad Arbery).

If someone is fearful because the other party is belligerent, they should pull over, call 911, and wait for help to arrive before exiting the vehicle. That is what I would do.

You're a man. That isn't what I would. I'm a woman. I know that even if I stayed in my car, with three men against me and even on the phone with 911, would not guarantee my safety.

A driver should have the right to pursue a fleeing party, if it is safe to do so. This way they can point out the car and the driver to the authorities when they arrive. There are penalties for leaving the scene of an accident after all. Auto insurance is pretty expensive in FL, because people flee accidents or don't accept responsibility for an accident they caused.

Again, this is vigilantism and I find it morally wrong.

I am an advocate for mandatory dash cams in all cars. It levels the playing field by showing exactly what happed in a traffic accident, or even in other incidents.

I have no problem with dash cams.

MOO

 

[darring21]

I respectfully disagree. If someone is in an accident, they need to pull over and exchange contact and insurance information. This is what the traffic law in FL requires. It happens hundreds, perhaps thousands of times a day in this state and rarely do you hear of something going wrong, so the law is not ethically or morally wrong.

If someone is fearful because the other party is belligerent, they should pull over, call 911, and wait for help to arrive before exiting the vehicle. That is what I would do.

A driver should have the right to pursue a fleeing party, if it is safe to do so. This way they can point out the car and the driver to the authorities when they arrive. There are penalties for leaving the scene of an accident after all. Auto insurance is pretty expensive in FL, because people flee accidents or don't accept responsibility for an accident they caused.

I am an advocate for mandatory dash cams in all cars. It levels the playing field by showing exactly what happed in a traffic accident, or even in other incidents.

They were leaving her alone. They were standing in the street, talking to the 911 dispatcher, waiting for the police. They were not actively threatening her physically, or otherwise.

If that was so frightening to her that she felt compelled to leave the safety of her locked up home, and run towards them, waving a gun, then I think she was primarily at fault for the tragic outcome. There was no need for that. She could have watched from the window ands had plenty of time to shoot if any of them came to her home, trying to enter. JMO

And then, with three people with guns, two of them back away and said calm down. One fired 8 shots at a woman in her yard after following her home over a traffic accident that caused no damage with her 11 year old daughter watching from the window. It is morally indefensible and I worry about the decline of our society and care for other people.