FL - Sara Morales, 35, shot dead by motorcyclist she hit with car, Orange City, 20 Nov 2021

[GatorFL]

As it was, Mama had no bullets. But D didn't know that. Perhaps she would have been #2? But Police, by that time knew that SM and her mother were not the dangerous ones.

Then why did they let Derr go?

 

[GatorFL]

I dug a little deeper and consulted an attorney in FL via email. I shared several links about the case. Here are some snippets:

1. First thing he said, this case is a prime example of why you leave these things to law enforcement.
2. Derr had the right to pursue and to make a citizen's arrest based upon the traffic accident.
3. She pointed a gun at him, so he had the right to stand his ground and use deadly force.
4. The issue is, did he have a right to be where he was when he shot her?
5. When somebody points a gun at you, you only have an instant to make a decision.
6. The victim made a series of poor choices.

MODS: I can share this email privately if you need to see it.

 

[darring21]

I dug a little deeper and consulted an attorney in FL via email. I shared several links about the case. Here are some snippets:

1. First thing he said, this case is a prime example of why you leave these things to law enforcement.
2. Derr had the right to pursue and to make a citizen's arrest based upon the traffic accident.
3. She pointed a gun at him, so he had the right to stand his ground and use deadly force.
4. The issue is, did he have a right to be where he was when he shot her?
5. When somebody points a gun at you, you only have an instant to make a decision.
6. The victim made a series of poor choices.

MODS: I can share this email privately if you need to see it.

Perhaps this is true. Did she point a gun at him or did she wave it around? Did he fire 8 shots? If that is true, was she on the ground when he was still firing?

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Then why did they let Derr go?

Because the cops made up their mind from the get-go. That was obvious when a day after the accident, they said Morales was the aggressor and now we hear from witnesses that that wasn't the case.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

2. Derr had the right to pursue and to make a citizen's arrest based upon the traffic accident.

And we know how that worked out in the Ahmad Arbery case.

3. She pointed a gun at him, so he had the right to stand his ground and use deadly force.
4. The issue is, did he have a right to be where he was when he shot her?
5. When somebody points a gun at you, you only have an instant to make a decision.
6. The victim made a series of poor choices.

MODS: I can share this email privately if you need to see it.

I believe that the lawyer is wrong. It just doesn't pass logical muster that an individual who began the entire incident, harassed the driver, then chased her home with three others has the actual right to detain her.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

I also looked up FL's laws. There is a citizen's arrest law on the books right now (someone is trying to change that), but here's what it says:

"As Judge Norman Hendry explained at the time, four elements must be satisfied during a lawful citizen’s arrest. There must be an intention to make an arrest. The person making the arrest must seize or detain the suspect. That person must also communicate to the suspect his or her intention to make the arrest. And the person being arrested must understand that intention."

These four elements were not satisfied at any point during this incident so I don't think this qualifies as a citizen's arrest.

House lawmaker files bill to ban citizen’s arrests in Florida

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Perhaps this is true. Did she point a gun at him or did she wave it around? Did he fire 8 shots? If that is true, was she on the ground when he was still firing?

He says she pointed it at him, but witnesses say she waved it around. He definitely shot at least 5 times because she was struck 5 times. More than likely, he would have fired more than 5 times in order to hit her 5 times unless he's just that good. Whether 5 or 8, that's way more than he needed to protect himself and I can't imagine a jury would believe otherwise.

 

[Ozoner]

I dug a little deeper and consulted an attorney in FL via email. I shared several links about the case. Here are some snippets:

1. First thing he said, this case is a prime example of why you leave these things to law enforcement.
2. Derr had the right to pursue and to make a citizen's arrest based upon the traffic accident.
3. She pointed a gun at him, so he had the right to stand his ground and use deadly force.
4. The issue is, did he have a right to be where he was when he shot her?
5. When somebody points a gun at you, you only have an instant to make a decision.
6. The victim made a series of poor choices.

MODS: I can share this email privately if you need to see it.

The attorney doesn't seem to have considered that Derr was apparently menacing the victim at the time of the traffic accident and that she was likely trying to escape him when the accident occurred.

By overlooking that crucial information, the attorney has rendered his assessment of the case invalid, in my opinion.

 

[GatorFL]

And we know how that worked out in the Ahmad Arbery case.



I believe that the lawyer is wrong. It just doesn't pass logical muster that an individual who began the entire incident, harassed the driver, then chased her home with three others has the actual right to detain her.

There is a reason he's not in jail right now. The preponderance of the evidence is that he was within his rights. He has witnesses. She hit him and ran and refused to pull over. She was followed home so the victim could ID her to the police. I don't believe he was on her property, the early reports said he was in the roadway and that was confirmed by the police video.

Have all of the full 911 calls been released? I could not find them.

 

[GatorFL]

The attorney doesn't seem to have considered that Derr was apparently menacing the victim at the time of the traffic accident and that she was likely trying to escape him when the accident occurred.

By overlooking that crucial information, the attorney has rendered his assessment of the case invalid, in my opinion.

None of the initial reports said he was menacing her. In fact, the witnesses all said he was trying to get her to pull over. This is the best report I could find, has some good links embedded in it with the full narrative.

 

[GatorFL]

I also looked up FL's laws. There is a citizen's arrest law on the books right now (someone is trying to change that), but here's what it says:

"As Judge Norman Hendry explained at the time, four elements must be satisfied during a lawful citizen’s arrest. There must be an intention to make an arrest. The person making the arrest must seize or detain the suspect. That person must also communicate to the suspect his or her intention to make the arrest. And the person being arrested must understand that intention."

These four elements were not satisfied at any point during this incident so I don't think this qualifies as a citizen's arrest.

House lawmaker files bill to ban citizen’s arrests in Florida

Initial reports said he followed her in order to identify her to the police.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

There is a reason he's not in jail right now.

Don't forget that the guys who killed Ahmad Arbery weren't arrested right away either. That case was also dismissed by police until others pushed for further investigation after the video came out and further investigation revealed what we heard during trial.

The preponderance of the evidence is that he was within his rights. He has witnesses.

Yes and those witnesses disagree with his retelling of events.

She hit him and ran and refused to pull over. She was followed home so the victim could ID her to the police.

But that's not how it works. Your previous posts would suggest you're so well-versed in the law so I have to assume you know that isn't how we do things. If you see a shoplifter at the store, do you follow them home so you can ID them? If you see a speeder, do you follow them home? The only time I think you'll find a sympathetic judge or jury to following someone home is if they've kidnapped someone or left the scene of a very serious (read: fatal) accident. Chasing someone home after a fender bender, with two other guys, and then kicking her car and arguing with her when she tells you she's afraid does not play well. And the end result being that you kill her? Derr better get down on his knees and pray he isn't arrested and charged because I think there's probably 99.9999999% chance he's found guilty by a jury of his peers if all this unfolded as the witnesses say.

Have all of the full 911 calls been released? I could not find them.

I don't remember now because I follow so many cases, but I distinctly remember a call with Morales telling 911 what happened, arriving home, and still connected to 911 when she's telling the guys she feels threatened (I don't think it was those exact words but she got that message across) and told them to leave her alone.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

None of the initial reports said he was menacing her. In fact, the witnesses all said he was trying to get her to pull over. This is the best report I could find, has some good links embedded in it with the full narrative.

But the later report does say he menaced her. That's from a witness. Unfortunately, Morales isn't here to give us her side.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Initial reports said he followed her in order to identify her to the police.

But again, that doesn't make logical sense. Sure, he's going to say that, but think about it.

Try to put this case aside and let's just talk about a generic case. Is it ever appropriate to chase a person to their personal residence for a non-injury hit and run? Then take it a step further. Is it ever appropriate to chase a person to their personal residence for a non-injury hit and run that happened as the direct result of your aggressive behavior toward said driver? Isn't that the template for road rage assaults and murders?

If Hollywood was doing a movie and it was a case like this, you know what the script would be?

Derr speeds. Morales changes lanes. Derr was cut off and pulls up beside her, yelling at her. Morales swerves to get out of there and taps his bike. Derr and two others chase her home. Derr kills her.

It's the cliche set-up for a road rage murder and why so many people are urged NOT to stop if they're the victims of a road rage incident. Morales was not abandoning her responsibility. She called police before even getting home and said what happened. That isn't the action of someone trying to get away with a crime. I believe she legitimately didn't feel safe, as she said during the 911 call.

 

[Ozoner]

None of the initial reports said he was menacing her. In fact, the witnesses all said he was trying to get her to pull over. This is the best report I could find, has some good links embedded in it with the full narrative.

There had not yet been an accodent at that time, so he had no legitimate reason to try to get her to pull over. He isn't a cop.

Are you suggesting that a woman should pull over any time a random guy on a motorcycle tries to get her to do so?

Any male non-cop trying to pull over a woman with whom he has not had a collision is a threat. In fact, there have been several serial killers who lured victims that way.

So yes, he was menacing her.

 

[Razz]

Then why did they let Derr go?

This entire incident stinks and the initial handling and reporting of it. Why did none of the papers investigate this story of D's until the Daytona Beach Jounal wrote what appears to be a much better researched article 2 months later? (And giving a different account with witness interviews?)

Why refuse to read that article that's been posted now many times?! Is it because it sheds a bad light on Derr?!

Your attorney friend was not given the full story.

Maybe following your own advice a week ago would have been wise. "Let's wait and see how this shakes out".

 

[GatorFL]

I don't remember now because I follow so many cases, but I distinctly remember a call with Morales telling 911 what happened, arriving home, and still connected to 911 when she's telling the guys she feels threatened (I don't think it was those exact words but she got that message across) and told them to leave her alone.

Yeah that was the only one I could find.

 

[GatorFL]

This entire incident stinks and the initial handling and reporting of it. Why did none of the papers investigate this story of D's until the Daytona Beach Jounal wrote what appears to be a much better researched article 2 months later? (And giving a different account with witness interviews?)

Why refuse to read that article that's been posted now many times?! Is it because it sheds a bad light on Derr?!

Your attorney friend was not given the full story.

Maybe following your own advice a week ago would have been wise. "Let's wait and see how this shakes out".

I emailed him and sent him all the news stories. He was already familiar with the case.

 

[happyday]

This entire incident stinks and the initial handling and reporting of it. Why did none of the papers investigate this story of D's until the Daytona Beach Jounal wrote what appears to be a much better researched article 2 months later? (And giving a different account with witness interviews?)

Why refuse to read that article that's been posted now many times?! Is it because it sheds a bad light on Derr?!

Your attorney friend was not given the full story.

Maybe following your own advice a week ago would have been wise. "Let's wait and see how this shakes out".

It really does stink. It’s obvious road rage in which the road rager ends up killing the other driver. No spin can change that this is not normal civilized human behavior, and angry people with guns shouldn’t be able to take the law into their own hands, no matter what her behavior was. That’s not how civilized society works.

LE seems to have taken him at his word, and it’s a shame. He’s a menace to society IMO. We’ll see what happens, but I’ll be surprised if they actually charge him. I hope I’m wrong. I keep wondering about her fiancé and how livid he must be.

 

[GatorFL]

Try to put this case aside and let's just talk about a generic case. Is it ever appropriate to chase a person to their personal residence for a non-injury hit and run? Then take it a step further. Is it ever appropriate to chase a person to their personal residence for a non-injury hit and run that happened as the direct result of your aggressive behavior toward said driver? Isn't that the template for road rage assaults and murders?

Yes. I do think following someone to identify them to police is appropriate for a non injury hit and run. Auto insurance is very expensive in FL partly because of this. I still am not sold his driving led to the accident. I still think it was her driving that did.