Flight to London Gatwick crashes at airport in India .June 12 th 2025

[indicolite22]

If it is such a complex motion- (the switches need to be pushed down twisted, then pulled up, then moved to the new setting, then let go of) -how were they shut off one second apart?

Perhaps it was done in quick succession so the other pilot wouldn't notice. I wonder if the pilot flying (the co-pilot in this case) ever called for the gear to be raised. The pilot monitoring (the captain) was reponsible for raising the gear. The gear switch was found in a down position. Before the preliminary report came out it was speculated that the gear retraction started but couldn't be completed due to the loss of hydraulics.

 

[indicolite22]

not 100% clear who did it if one of them is being devious? ...and any possibility the switches were tampered with or broken some how? seems remote but I have to keep a slightly open mind.

They worked fine on a previous flight on the same day. They are used twice on every flight.

 

[Dotta]

Everything works fine
until
it doesn't.

My washing machine was doing alright on Thursday
but on Friday it suddenly stopped working

JMO

 

[musicaljoke]

AI 171 crash investigators are a huge, international group, but predominantly, Indians. Just imagine that crash site in hot weather. Remnants of bodies and the airplane. Horrible.

And they had to go through it to find the black boxes. The aft card was corrupted but from the cockpit one, they diligently downloaded 40+ hours of information and went through it. What a sad and tedious job.

So to immediately assume that money changed hands while most
likely, they just finished a very saddening job is unfair to them.

I think that by not releasing all, they are protecting the pilots’ families. Whether a mistake, a medical condition or suicidal thinking, the families are victims, too.
I think that eventually, the investigators will tell us. But they have to explain what was happening in the life of the person before it happened. We are in the preliminary state.

I read about the families of the suicidal pilots. Lubitz’s one initially did not accept it. I can understand. It is impossible to admit that your beloved child ended up a suicidal killer.

Shah’s wife I feel very sorry for. She must have struggled with him (they were divorcing when it happened) and the family horribly struggled after the catastrophe. It changed their lives. Are they to be blamed? Not at all.

So here. If it is the captain, maybe it is humane to let his dad rest in peace before the knowledge is released. If it is the FO, to minimize the feeling of guilt of his family that was out of the country when it happened would be fair.

Anyhow - let us wait till the official final report is released. RIP all the victims. My condolences to their families.

A five-member team, headed by 56-year-old Sanjay Kumar Singh, is probing the fatal crash of the Air India aircraft last month in Ahmedabad that killed 260 people.

Read more at: Air India Crash Probe: Meet the AAIB Team Investigating Ahmedabad Tragedy

[...] investigators noted a previous US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) advisory from December 2018 regarding a potential flaw in the aircraft’s fuel-control switch system – highlighting the potential disengagement of the locking feature.

The report on the Air India crash noted that this advisory had been prompted by reports from operators of Boeing 737 aircraft, highlighting that fuel-control switches had been found to have been installed with their locking mechanisms disengaged.

Air India told the investigators that no inspection had been made in response to this advisory, since compliance was not mandatory.
How Air India flight crashed: Fatal last moments of AI-171

The UK's involvement is to review the reports, not to do the investigation.

AAIB Update: Preliminary report into Air India flight AI171


Investigators from the US National Transportation Safety Board ( NTSB) threatened to withdraw from the Air India Flight 171 crash investigation due to a perceived lack of transparency.

US Investigators Threatened To Withdraw From Air India Crash Probe Over Slow Progress & Lack Of Transparency

Families of the victims are angry at delays and a lack of information.

simpleflying.com

The preliminary report on the AI 171 crash is notably brief and lacking in technical transparency, says aviation expert

In summary, I don't believe that the investigation can be called huge, nor international. jmo

 

[musicaljoke]

Snipped and bbma, just to satisfy my curiosity. What sorts of "discourse/conversation" does he suspect? There has to be a reason just that part of the conversation was released. The investigators are trying to find the answers, not assign blame to anyone person. It is apparent to me, from the report, the black box recorded the "fuel cut off" buttons were activated and the conversation of the pilot(s) also provided visual and verbal confirmation of the same.

I don't necessarily doubt that the fuel cut off, but to assume that's what the pilots were talking when one asked the question is a stretch. If a pilot actually cut off the fuel supply, what would be the most likely response from the copilot? Whatever the copilot thought was cut off, wasn't cut off by the pilot because the pilot said he didn't cut it off.

Is it possible that a known flaw in the fuel switch occurred? I don't know what to think of that.

 

[australianwebsleuth]

A five-member team, headed by 56-year-old Sanjay Kumar Singh, is probing the fatal crash of the Air India aircraft last month in Ahmedabad that killed 260 people.

Read more at: Air India Crash Probe: Meet the AAIB Team Investigating Ahmedabad Tragedy

[...] investigators noted a previous US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) advisory from December 2018 regarding a potential flaw in the aircraft’s fuel-control switch system – highlighting the potential disengagement of the locking feature.

The report on the Air India crash noted that this advisory had been prompted by reports from operators of Boeing 737 aircraft, highlighting that fuel-control switches had been found to have been installed with their locking mechanisms disengaged.

Air India told the investigators that no inspection had been made in response to this advisory, since compliance was not mandatory.
How Air India flight crashed: Fatal last moments of AI-171

The UK's involvement is to review the reports, not to do the investigation.

AAIB Update: Preliminary report into Air India flight AI171


Investigators from the US National Transportation Safety Board ( NTSB) threatened to withdraw from the Air India Flight 171 crash investigation due to a perceived lack of transparency.

US Investigators Threatened To Withdraw From Air India Crash Probe Over Slow Progress & Lack Of Transparency

Families of the victims are angry at delays and a lack of information.

simpleflying.com

The preliminary report on the AI 171 crash is notably brief and lacking in technical transparency, says aviation expert

In summary, I don't believe that the investigation can be called huge, nor international. jmo

When I started posting on this thread, I was concerned that the Indian authorities would save face rather than have ‘human’ error found to be a cause of this disaster. It seems my concerns were justified. To know the NTSB was ready to walk away is also troubling.

India needs to reflect on the consequences of hiding the truth. If it is perceived that India willingly hides the truth, then regulators may just ban Indian operators from their airspace. Many airlines around the world are banned from European, American airspace for these sorts of reasons.

 

[LittleSeaTree]

It happens at the same time the undercarriage should have been retracted. (The co-pilot responsibility). It is likely to be the Captain. He was turning the fuel switches off instead of raising the undercarriage.

We can’t tell whether that was intentional. How do you get inside someone’s head. The human factors involved in suicide murder are the same for being distracted and not having one’s mind on the job.

He may have been in a dissociative mental state and simply automatically pulled the switches.

I doubt we will ever know whether it was intentional or not.

The issue of the mental state of pilots is a real concern and demands a bigger, logical and non punitive response of airlines. There have been multiple events now where this is the main cause. Aircraft are now so safe that the Achilles heal are the people at the pointy end.

Assuming ground staff working that flight have been interviewed extensively. They have a lot of back and forth face to face with the crew before final paperwork is delivered and the doors closed. There’s a lot of communicating between them and the PIC/Purser of flights. Unless the allegedly guilty party is a master actor, they def could have (in retrospect only, hopefully) noted him being ‘off’. IMO

 

[Charlot123]

If it is such a complex motion- (the switches need to be pushed down twisted, then pulled up, then moved to the new setting, then let go of) -how were they shut off one second apart?

Are they independent and can they be moved simultaneously with both hands? I think the answer is yes. After all, that's all that one needs to do, shut off jet fuel during takeoff, it is the recipe for disaster.

 

[IQuestion]

Everything works fine
until
it doesn't.

My washing machine was doing alright on Thursday
but on Friday it suddenly stopped working

JMO

I hear ya'...but what if you had two, and both of them quit working withing one second of each other?

 

[Dotta]

"Air India pilot’s medical records examined ​

after mental health claims.​

Air India crash investigators are examining the medical records of the pilot whose plane crashed in Ahmedabad

amid claims
that he suffered from depression and mental health problems..."

PAYWALL

Access Restricted

https://twitter.com/x/status/1944687439223689504

"...several Air India pilots had confirmed the 56-year-old captain had suffered from poor mental health.

'He had taken time off from flying in the last three to four years.
He had taken medical leave for that',
one claimed.

But....!!!

Air India declined to comment,
but an official working with parent company Tata Group said

that Captain Sabharwal had not taken recent medical leave,
though he did take bereavement leave in 2022.

'His medical records were submitted as part of the investigation,
and the preliminary report
did not find anything noteworthy',
the official said."

 

[emirates1957]

No one is.

As a traveler, I am thinking of how to increase my safety.
I rely on these huge machines, on rules and regulations, on CRM.

I am also thinking that since 9/11, there has been a huge disconnect between the pilots and the passengers. In the past, we could see them entering the cabin, and they could see us. Now, even applauds when they land have disappeared. Very seldom you can see the pilot on exit and say, “thank you”. We see the rest of the crew (usually, very overworked - it is not their fault). I am thinking of how to bridge this gap. I think the pilots may be burned out, but they should not view us as part of their companies. And we should appreciate them more.

I can’t speak for other airlines….however if a Pilot needed to go the the bathroom the F/A would have to enter the F/D and lock the door. There is also the threat of pax also abusing Pilot’s went they entered the cabin unfortunately times have changed. The theory is now when one Pilot is removed from the F/D the safety aspect is reduced by 50%.

 

[emirates1957]

Perhaps it was done in quick succession so the other pilot wouldn't notice. I wonder if the pilot flying (the co-pilot in this case) ever called for the gear to be raised. The pilot monitoring (the captain) was reponsible for raising the gear. The gear switch was found in a down position. Before the preliminary report came out it was speculated that the gear retraction started but couldn't be completed due to the loss of hydraulics.

I guess maybe using both hands to disengage.

 

[Dotta]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1944575196754547097

 

[Greenestdays]

When I started posting on this thread, I was concerned that the Indian authorities would save face rather than have ‘human’ error found to be a cause of this disaster. It seems my concerns were justified. To know the NTSB was ready to walk away is also troubling.

India needs to reflect on the consequences of hiding the truth. If it is perceived that India willingly hides the truth, then regulators may just ban Indian operators from their airspace. Many airlines around the world are banned from European, American airspace for these sorts of reasons.

I was reading aviation forums right after the accident happened and many people in the industry immediately speculated that the blame will end up being placed on the pilot(s). So no surprises in the direction the investigation is going so far… Sad.

 

[Spectrix]

If it is such a complex motion- (the switches need to be pushed down twisted, then pulled up, then moved to the new setting, then let go of) -how were they shut off one second apart?

It's not a complex motion. The switch is sprung inwards, and in the run position it is sitting against a raised gate. It needs to be pulled outwards slightly as it's flicked down, to allow the mechanism to clear the little ledge. There is no twisting or pushing.

It's done one at a time because the pulling motion obviously requires one's opposing thumb, but it only takes half a second to complete.

The design is supposed to prevent the switch from being accidentally bumped.

 

[indicolite22]

I was reading aviation forums right after the accident happened and many people in the industry immediately speculated that the blame will end up being placed on the pilot(s). So no surprises in the direction the investigation is going so far… Sad.

If someone in the cockpit manually turned off the fuel control switches at the most critical phase of the flight, you can't blame it on the equipment.

 

[Spectrix]

If someone in the cockpit manually turned off the fuel control switches at the most critical phase of the flight, you can't blame it on the equipment.

This is the sticking point.
Prior to this report coming out, I was defending the Pilots.
They're obviously not around to defend themselves, and it seems many people immediately start pointing the finger at pilot error.

But those fuel control switches... They didn't turn themselves off.

My observations after reading the 15 page preliminary report:

Pilot flying: First Officer Clive Kunder, Age 32, with approximately 3,400 flight hours (1,100 on the 787)
Very unlikely that he touched the Fuel Switches, as he would have had both hands on the Yoke during takeoff.

Co Pilot: Captain Sumeet Sabharwal, age 56, with approximately 15,600 flight hours (8,600 on the 787)
More likely to have opportunity to manipulate the Fuel switches, as he would have had his right hand on the Thrust Lever (directly above the Fuel Run/Cutoff switches)

The report does not say which Pilot asked “Why did you cut off?”, but I suspect it was First Officer Clive Kunder.

Someone (again, likely to be First Officer Clive Kunder) turned the fuel switches back on about ten seconds after they were turned off.

• Engine 1 successfully relit and had began spooling up when the crash occurred.
• Engine 2 failed to recover, its FADEC system continued ramping up fuel in an attempt to restart, but never stabilized.

I admit I am still puzzled by this case.
If Captain Sumeet Sabharwal indeed planned a murder suicide, why would he cut the fuel just seconds after lift off?
This was sure to cause a low altitude, low speed crash. If it wasn't for the buildings, the plane may have achieved a crash landing without the giant fireball, and far less casualties.

Is it possible that Captain Sabharwal intended to cause a low speed, low altitude crash landing? If so, why?

-

 

[Greenestdays]

If someone in the cockpit manually turned off the fuel control switches at the most critical phase of the flight, you can't blame it on the equipment.

Absolutely agree, if someone turned them off manually.
I just hope the true cause and reasons behind any possible actions are determined in the full report.

 

[Charlot123]

Air India crash pilot's mental health history probed amid 'tone' concerns

Captain Sumeet Sabharwal was only months away from retirement and had more than 15,000 hours of flying experience - but has been the subject of claims surrounding his mental health

www.irishstar.com

The probe focuses on Captain Sumeet Subharwal’s mental health state

 

[indicolite22]

This is the sticking point.
Prior to this report coming out, I was defending the Pilots.
They're obviously not around to defend themselves, and it seems many people immediately start pointing the finger at pilot error.

But those fuel control switches... They didn't turn themselves off.

My observations after reading the 15 page preliminary report:

Pilot flying: First Officer Clive Kunder, Age 32, with approximately 3,400 flight hours (1,100 on the 787)
Very unlikely that he touched the Fuel Switches, as he would have had both hands on the Yoke during takeoff.

Co Pilot: Captain Sumeet Sabharwal, age 56, with approximately 15,600 flight hours (8,600 on the 787)
More likely to have opportunity to manipulate the Fuel switches, as he would have had his right hand on the Thrust Lever (directly above the Fuel Run/Cutoff switches)

The report does not say which Pilot asked “Why did you cut off?”, but I suspect it was First Officer Clive Kunder.

Someone (again, likely to be First Officer Clive Kunder) turned the fuel switches back on about ten seconds after they were turned off.

• Engine 1 successfully relit and had began spooling up when the crash occurred.
• Engine 2 failed to recover, its FADEC system continued ramping up fuel in an attempt to restart, but never stabilized.

I admit I am still puzzled by this case.
If Captain Sumeet Sabharwal indeed planned a murder suicide, why would he cut the fuel just seconds after lift off?
This was sure to cause a low altitude, low speed crash. If it wasn't for the buildings, the plane may have achieved a crash landing without the giant fireball, and far less casualties.

Is it possible that Captain Sabharwal intended to cause a low speed, low altitude crash landing? If so, why?

-

The plane was full on fuel. Any crash would have ended in a fireball. The person who planned it knew that there wasn't a clearance beyond the end of the runway. They chose the moment because of a low chance of recovery. (All IMO)