Flight to London Gatwick crashes at airport in India .June 12 th 2025

[indicolite22]

It’s good to see confirmed what most of us think what happened.

It’s impossible to know whether this is intentional or unintentional with absolute certainty. How do you record what’s going on inside their head.

Due to their design the fuel control switches could not be accidentally turned off. IMO the captain knew what he was doing. His denial and subsequent non-reaction also speak for themselves.

 

[Charlot123]

---

A black-box recording of dialogue between the flight’s two pilots indicates it was the captain who turned off switches that controlled fuel flowing to the plane’s two engines, according to people familiar with U.S. officials’ early assessment of evidence uncovered in the crash investigation.

The first officer who was flying the Boeing 787 Dreamliner asked the more-experienced captain why he moved the switches to the “cutoff” position after it climbed off the runway, these people said. The first officer expressed surprise and then panicked, these people said, while the captain seemed to remain calm.

Details in the preliminary report also suggest it was the captain who turned off the switches, according to people familiar with the matter, U.S. pilots and safety experts tracking the probe. The report didn’t say whether turning off the switches might have been accidental or deliberate.

https://www.wsj.com/world/asia/air-india-crash-senior-pilot-eab72db5?st=QEtZ5v&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink

Poor, poor FO. The captain was pilot monitoring. For a less-seasoned pilot, to even realize what's happened, then ask his mentor, the respected person, why, to go through the horrific realization and try to do something (he kept the nose up till the end and tried to avoid the buildings, remember..). Not his fault that heavy jet engines take longer time to pick up. So sorry, FO Kunder.

 

[australianwebsleuth]

---

Poor, poor FO. The captain was pilot monitoring. For a less-seasoned pilot, to even realize what's happened, then ask his mentor, the respected person, why, to go through the horrific realization and try to do something (he kept the nose up till the end and tried to avoid the buildings, remember..). Not his fault that heavy jet engines take longer time to pick up. So sorry, FO Kunder.

It also has a lot to do with FADEC on engines. FADEC is a computer that controls engine fuel and thrust. It imposes limits on what the FO was able to achieve with the thrust control after he switched them back on. It's there to improve fuel efficiency and engine longevity. This issue needs to be looked at in a simulator to see whether this made a difference.

It is just possible that the FO may have been able to recover the situation if he could override the FADEC.

 

[IQuestion]

A black-box recording of dialogue between the flight’s two pilots indicates it was the captain who turned off switches that controlled fuel flowing to the plane’s two engines, according to people familiar with U.S. officials’ early assessment of evidence uncovered in the crash investigation.

The first officer who was flying the Boeing 787 Dreamliner asked the more-experienced captain why he moved the switches to the “cutoff” position after it climbed off the runway, these people said. The first officer expressed surprise and then panicked, these people said, while the captain seemed to remain calm.

Details in the preliminary report also suggest it was the captain who turned off the switches, according to people familiar with the matter, U.S. pilots and safety experts tracking the probe. The report didn’t say whether turning off the switches might have been accidental or deliberate.

https://www.wsj.com/world/asia/air-india-crash-senior-pilot-eab72db5?st=QEtZ5v&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink

The realization is difficult to accept for everyone. The sadness in the voice of pilot, "T.R. Matson" (call sign Wombat...but I think of him as John Wayne of the Skies). He was reviewing the information and he lamented, ... ."but I want desperately, in my heart for this to be an accident and not a deliberate act." "Like I really, really want this to just be an accident that we can learn from. People's lives are lost at this point and we can't bring them back . I don't want this for aviation ever, not for aviation now." You see in his face and hear in his voice.... a lot of conflict as he discussed the possibilities with other pilot who also flies large aircraft. (He flies equipment made by a different manufacturer. So put those Boeing cover up/ conspiracy theories to rest.)
GONKY:, "The timeline of events are about as dangerous as you can make if you are using the cutoff switches to crash that airplane."
(I know y'all have watched a lot YT's. ) Start at 12:01 to approx 26:00

 

[Sarahlou]

Despicable if this was deliberate, which is what it looks like. I will never understand why they have to take a whole plane load of people with them.

 

[australianwebsleuth]

Despicable if this was deliberate, which is what it looks like. I will never understand why they have to take a whole plane load of people with them.

After he retired, no one would have remembered him. Now everyone remembers him for all the wrong reasons.

 

[MessyLee]

This shows the fuel switches on 15:40 min mark. It is pretty simple and they are small.

 

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

Mentour Now podcast has been linked before and is an approved source for this specific discussion.

 

[Charlot123]

After he retired, no one would have remembered him. Now everyone remembers him for all the wrong reasons.

We don’t know if it played any role.but

I noticed a couple of things. Hopefully, the final report will touch upon them.

- the senior officials were fired for “poor crew safety measurement” and “violation of the scheduling protocol”. They also commented on “licensing lapses” or such.

1) The statement begs the question, how were the relationships between Sabharwal and Kunder? Any prior problems? Did “violation of scheduling protocol” mean that they should not have been scheduled to fly together because of some character mismatch? (It had happened before, in China Eastern Airlines Flight 5735 crash and SilkAir Flight 185 crash.

2) Did licensing lapses mean that something was wrong in Capt Sabharwal’s medical or flight certificate but they allowed him to fly?

3) A different question. In several cases, the pattern is the same, a person with “issues” has a traumatic episode the day before the flight. The cases include:

Gameel Al-Batouti, suicidal FO on board Egyptian 990. The night before the flight, Al-Batouti was reprimanded for harassing a female flight attendant in the hotel; the woman asked the company’s manager Roushdy for protection. Just before the flight, Roushdy revoked Al-Batouti's privilege of flying to the United States and informed him that Flight 990 would be his last on the route. Roushdy was the passenger on 990.

Also, SilkAir Flight 185 captain Tsu Way Ming, considered responsible for the crash - loss of $1.2 million shortly before the crash and suspension of his securities-trading privileges 10 days before the accident.

MH 370 flight - imprisonment of Shah’s in-law, friend and “political hope” of the country the day before the flight.

Lubitz, Germanwings flight 9525 crash. Lubitz’s live-in girlfriend, tired of his controlling personality, broke up with him the day before the flight.

In hindsight, none of these people should have been scheduled to fly the next day (Ming’s and Lubitz’s situations were unknown of, though).

So the question is, was there any personal trauma/break in Sabharwal’s life the days prior to the flight? Was it known and not reflected in “scheduling”?

5) As it now seems, Captain Subharwal was a good actor till the very end. He definitely played an amazing son. That invites another question, what was his real life story?

 

[indicolite22]

I don't care what Ted Bundy's or this guy's life story was. Nothing in their past could mitigate their decision to murder innocent people. (JMO)

 

[CriLondon]

This picture has been bothering me for a while. Why is the RAT being deployed so early as the aircraft was barely wheels up ? Did the FO call "positive rate gear up" and the PIC cut off the fuel by mistake instead of raising the gear lever?
I ask this question because judging by the position of the aircraft , this is where you'd call for "gear up" , or close to it.
I still have a lot of doubts as to how is the RAT out so early after lift off and I'm struggling to reconcile this with the fuel having been cut off so early and the aircraft still managed to gain ( relatively ) significant altitude after this point .

 

[australianwebsleuth]

The fuel switches disable the engine which in turn stops the electrical generators. The RAT deploys automatically in response to electrical power loss.

One of the scenarios I still have is the pilot while in a dissociative mental state turns the fuel switches off rather than retract the undercarriage. This is what I call a brain fart.

Dissociation is common in severe anxiety and depression. Mind wanders off rather than concentrating. Stupid things can happen.

The fuel switches are nowhere near the undercarriage switch.

 

[Dotta]

" 'No evidence suggesting human error’​

US aviation expert, Mary Schiavo,
has rejected the claims of human error that a pilot downed the Ahmedabad to London flight by cutting off the fuel supply.

'There is no evidence of this',
she said.

The aviation expert added,

'The voices, words and sounds on CVRs must be carefully analysed.
There is nothing here to suggest pilot suicide or murder.
The full transcript of the CVR should be released ASAP
to avoid harmful paraphrasing'.”

https://www.financialexpress.com/india-news/air-india-crash-why-us-aviation-expert-rejects-reports-of-ai-171-pilot-sumeet-sabharwal-cutting-off-fuel-supply-fe-exclusive/3917319/

 

[australianwebsleuth]

" 'No evidence suggesting human error’​

US aviation expert, Mary Schiavo,
has rejected the claims of human error that a pilot downed the Ahmedabad to London flight by cutting off the fuel supply.

'There is no evidence of this',
she said.

The aviation expert added,

'The voices, words and sounds on CVRs must be carefully analysed.
There is nothing here to suggest pilot suicide or murder.
The full transcript of the CVR should be released ASAP
to avoid harmful paraphrasing'.”

https://www.financialexpress.com/india-news/air-india-crash-why-us-aviation-expert-rejects-reports-of-ai-171-pilot-sumeet-sabharwal-cutting-off-fuel-supply-fe-exclusive/3917319/

The problem is this a lawyer who litigates for negligence. If a pilot is responsible there is no payday.

The black box clearly shows the switches were turned off and on again. The fault she describes in the ANA 787 did not turn the engines off, it just powered them down. There was no power because the RAT deployed.

There is insufficient evidence for murder but can’t be excluded.

 

[Dotta]

The problem is this a lawyer who litigates for negligence. If a pilot is responsible there is no payday.

The black box clearly shows the switches were turned off and on again. The fault she describes in the ANA 787 did not turn the engines off, it just powered them down. There was no power because the RAT deployed.

There is insufficient evidence for murder but can’t be excluded.

This is all horrific
I'm lost for words.
I pray for all innocent souls.
Rest in Peace.

 

[CriLondon]

" 'No evidence suggesting human error’​

US aviation expert, Mary Schiavo,
has rejected the claims of human error that a pilot downed the Ahmedabad to London flight by cutting off the fuel supply.

'There is no evidence of this',
she said.

The aviation expert added,

'The voices, words and sounds on CVRs must be carefully analysed.
There is nothing here to suggest pilot suicide or murder.
The full transcript of the CVR should be released ASAP
to avoid harmful paraphrasing'.”

https://www.financialexpress.com/india-news/air-india-crash-why-us-aviation-expert-rejects-reports-of-ai-171-pilot-sumeet-sabharwal-cutting-off-fuel-supply-fe-exclusive/3917319/

It would be good to know which ANA flight she is referring to .

 

[Dotta]

It would be good to know which ANA flight she is referring to .

"She based this on
a similar incident from 2019,
involving an All Nippon Airways (ANA)
– Japan’s largest airline.

She said that the switch moved from 'Run' to 'Cutoff' without the pilot’s intervention.

This raises concerns about a potential software glitch in the Boeing 787,
an issue she had flagged earlier.

'There was an ANA flight in 2019
in which the 787 aircraft did this itself,
while the flight was on final approach.
No pilot input cutting off the fuel whatsoever',

Schiavo told FinancialExpress.com.

She added that the software glitch made the Boeing 787 think that it was on the ground,
and that is why the Thrust Control Malfunction Accommodation System (TCMA) cut the fuel supply to the engines.

'The pilots never touched the fuel cutoff', she told FinancialExpress.com."

https://www.financialexpress.com/india-news/air-india-crash-why-us-aviation-expert-rejects-reports-of-ai-171-pilot-sumeet-sabharwal-cutting-off-fuel-supply-fe-exclusive/3917319/

 

[Cryptic]

2) Did licensing lapses mean that something was wrong in Capt Sabharwal’s medical or flight certificate but they allowed him to fly?

Wow.

Pilots can have several type of certificates including general flight, multi engine, plane type, instrument flight, Captain in Command, etc etc.

If the validity of Sabbarwal's certificate(s) were in question, I wonder if it could lead to the following chain of thought by senior management:

- S's certificate(s) are not valid, yet he was allowed to fly.
- S is nearing retirement, but should not be flying.
- Therefore, S should not retire as a Captain (with associated benefits)?

Or....

- S did eventually get his certificates back and was flying legally at that time. But.... he should not retire with the big "X" years as a pilot (with associated benefits) since he lost his flight certifications "Y" years ago. Thus, was not truly a pilot for the big, say 20 years.

Making a long chain short, and building on your "final stress" possibility, I wonder if S was facing a diminished retirement?

 

[CriLondon]

"She based this on
a similar incident from 2019,
involving an All Nippon Airways (ANA)
– Japan’s largest airline.

She said that the switch moved from 'Run' to 'Cutoff' without the pilot’s intervention.

This raises concerns about a potential software glitch in the Boeing 787,
an issue she had flagged earlier.

'There was an ANA flight in 2019
in which the 787 aircraft did this itself,
while the flight was on final approach.
No pilot input cutting off the fuel whatsoever',

Schiavo told FinancialExpress.com.

She added that the software glitch made the Boeing 787 think that it was on the ground,
and that is why the Thrust Control Malfunction Accommodation System (TCMA) cut the fuel supply to the engines.

'The pilots never touched the fuel cutoff', she told FinancialExpress.com."

https://www.financialexpress.com/india-news/air-india-crash-why-us-aviation-expert-rejects-reports-of-ai-171-pilot-sumeet-sabharwal-cutting-off-fuel-supply-fe-exclusive/3917319/

Thanks Dotta , I actually read the article you posted and unfortunately she's not mentioned which flight she was referring to .

I tried to do a bit of digging in the accident database and on 17th January at Osaka , this aircraft suffered engines shutdown after landing and was stuck on the runway . This , though , occurred after thrust reverser actuation and it remained stuck in position .
Assuming this is the incident she's referred to , it would appear technically unrelated as there's no apparent visual indication from the footage we have that this occurred to AI171 .

I'm interested in what she said simply because she's alluding that this has somewhat happened before without pilot's interference/action on a B787 , without giving appropriate context .
Essentially she's saying " this has happened before , could have happened again" .
Which is a bit too much on the vague side of things when it comes the technical aspects of a modern airliner , in my view.

All of the above is of course, as always JMO .

Link for the ANA flight I think she might refer to

Incident Boeing 787-8 Dreamliner JA825A, Thursday 17 January 2019

A Boeing 787-8 of All Nippon Airways operating ANA/NH985 from Tokyo/Haneda to Osaka/Itami stuck on runway 32L while landing at Itami due to sudden shut-down of both engines after Thrust R...

asn.flightsafety.org

 

[warp3dwing]

Wow.

Pilots can have several type of certificates including general flight, multi engine, plane type, instrument flight, Captain in Command, etc etc.

If the validity of Sabbarwal's certificate(s) were in question, I wonder if it could lead to the following chain of thought by senior management:

- S's certificate(s) are not valid, yet he was allowed to fly.
- S is nearing retirement, but should not be flying.
- Therefore, S should not retire as a Captain (with associated benefits)?

Or....

- S did eventually get his certificates back and was flying legally at that time. But.... he should not retire with the big "X" years as a pilot (with associated benefits) since he lost his flight certifications "Y" years ago. Thus, was not truly a pilot for the big, say 20 years.

Making a long chain short, and building on your "final stress" possibility, I wonder if S was facing a diminished retirement?

Similar to the US, Indian airline pilots are required to hold a class 1 medical. For those pilots over 40 years of age, an exam must be completed every 6 months. The airline will require a successful medical certificate to allow the pilot to fly.

Pilot certifications (apart from flight instructor) don’t expire, per se. They are for life, unless the administrator revokes them for some reason (unless things are castly different in India). However, certain things need to happen for the certificate to remain valid. But at the airline level, the airline itself will make sure their pilots meet the requirements to carry passengers, operate under IFR, etc. I would say it’s be almost unthinkable for an airline pilot to continue flying without the requisite certifications, unless forgery was somehow involved.